RE: Women and Children First

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RE: Women and Children First

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 8:43:40 PM

Musicmystery

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~FR~

I wanted to mull this over for a day or two, but the water's so muddy now I'll just share my starting point and a few conclusions.

The problem--and the beauty--of this scenario is how starkly it brings to the fore the important role of primary assumptions, assumptions we cannot entirely know, despite the many opinions to the contrary.

First among these assumptions is that death is the worst option. However, as Trevelyan noted, the men might choose to attempt to save all, free and property, trusting their own ingenuity afterward, unafraid to die if that's their fate.

Nor is this necessarily a question of class. If the captain feels honor bound to save the cargo entrusted to him, that's going to affect his decisions. Practical concerns might well enter into this as well, for example, if indeed the slaves were chained below and time did not allow releasing them before they drowned.

If free are automatically better than property, then yes, the slaves go. But LL is correct too--free woman aren't always protected, and they are a snatched veil away from slavery.

The Titanic was a passenger ship, so the captain is not going to have the kind of control someone like Bosk would have over his crew. Rask and Marleneus are not necessarily going to come to the same decision. And a free woman like Verna is in a different situation than a pampered girl with no survival skills.

My own take? I'm with Trevelyan more or less--I think a lot of men will die trying that day, but I don't think this will be an orderly transaction.

So as the captain, my first action is to rally my men and take firm control of the ship. Doubtless some recalcitrant passengers will die in the process, we're bound to lose some slaves as decks flood, and we may lose a free woman or few from accidents and confusion over who's free and who's newly grabbed (not a lot of time to check for brands necessarily).

This will free up some lifeboats. My crew and some bold men who join us in taking control will go last, not necessarily going down with the ship unless we are unable to assemble escape rafts from materials on the ship.

But my men are the best--we'll do it, or at least come damn close. And we all die sometime.

Sing songs about us,

Captain Tim and the Brave Men of the Titantic

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Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Maahsatti)

Post #: 81

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 9:01:55 PM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
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FR

Not wanting to get into the whole slave/free debate, I'll just ask, shouldn't the FW be put ahead of the FM?

Obviously the Titanic isn't an end of the world scenario, but a civilization has a better chance of survival with 10 FM and 90 FW than it would with 10 FW and 90 FM.

That's just biology, has nothing to do with being a gentleman.

Take care,
Bella

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you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 82

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 9:04:10 PM

Elisabella

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Joined: 5/22/2008
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quote:

Nor is this necessarily a question of class. If the captain feels honor bound to save the cargo entrusted to him, that's going to affect his decisions.

Hi Captain Tim

Now that's an interesting thought right there. Snatch up the slaves while the FM fight for spots in the lifeboats, sell them when you get to land, and buy yourself a new boat.

I would presume the Captain of the Titanic would be of the Merchant caste?

Take care,
Bella

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 83

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 11:42:57 PM

opposingtwilight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti

Maah,The Quicker Picker Upper

-that- was even funnier than than the idea that spawned the Bounty comment ...

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Post #: 84

RE: Women and Children First - 1/12/2009 11:54:04 PM

opposingtwilight

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Joined: 6/13/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

FR

Not wanting to get into the whole slave/free debate, I'll just ask, shouldn't the FW be put ahead of the FM?

Obviously the Titanic isn't an end of the world scenario, but a civilization has a better chance of survival with 10 FM and 90 FW than it would with 10 FW and 90 FM.

That's just biology, has nothing to do with being a gentleman.

Take care,
Bella

The very fact that this isn't an end of the world scenario would negate your reasoning, Bella.

Think about it; 9 free women, burdened down in robes and veils and etc. With 1 man who is supposed to what? Treat them gently, respectfully, as FW should be treated and still somehow manage to get them to safety so he can, what? Impregnate them all? Why would he bother? Chances are in that sort of scenario, everyone would die. And since its not the end of the world, he doesn't need to impregnate 9 women and continue the population. He just needs to survive. :)

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(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 85

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 2:41:49 AM

gigit

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dearest Master.. Iffen she may answer this with a question... Why are there more people on the boat then seats on the lifeboats? the Captian of the ship and the crew should go down with the boat if there are not enough to save the passengers. even slaves are needed for the survival of the gorean world. so the paying passengers and thier slaves, any free boarders and thier slaves then the crew.. lastly the captian who should go down with the ship anyway isnt there an honor thing there?? Just her thought ...gigit

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 86

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 3:23:09 AM

Naturallurker

Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
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Warning engage sense of humour!
[humour]
Theres 2 answers to this question.

1. Leonidas, said "She's going down. There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women." easy answer the slaves are women so there is room! Voilà imaginary people survive.

2. Reading "She's going down. There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women" another way, there is enough room for all free ( male and female) solution free all the slaves every one gets away nice and safe. Voilà imaginary people survive.

[/humour]

Personally I would rather swim and die than justify why I should be saved to anyone. And were I the captain I'd have already done the passenger in the case of an emergency drill. I would have refused the commission on a ship so unseaworthy because the lives of my passengers would be my temporary responsibility, every last man woman and child of them.

quote:

It was the tradition of Anglo-Saxon heroism that was fulfilled in the frozen seas during the black hours of Sunday night. The heroism was that of the women who went, as well as of the men who remained!

http://www.logoi.com/notes/titanic/women_children_first.html

< Message edited by Naturallurker -- 1/13/2009 3:24:54 AM >

(in reply to gigit)

Post #: 87

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 4:52:36 AM

unownedredhead

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With humor may I please say, "I would toss the Captain as he got us all in this mess in the first place. A Captain who cannot see an iceberg is no use to anyone."

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(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 88

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 5:48:17 AM

Musicmystery

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~FR~

There's no radio on Gor. Even those in lifeboats are sitting in the Gorean version of the North Atlantic without food and fresh water. Barring some incredible stroke of luck, everyone will die. Just a matter of how and when.

Even if we manage to kill food from the sea, with no fresh water, we won't last long.

But then, there are no motorized ships on Gor either.

Tim

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Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to unownedredhead)

Post #: 89

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 5:51:26 AM

BitaTruble

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Who needs a motorized ship when you can have a tramp steamer!

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(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 90

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 5:56:26 AM

xBullx

Posts: 3938
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-fast reply-

So much for staying on point...

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Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to liltawny1)

Post #: 91

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 6:05:56 AM

BitaTruble

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I know that was a fast reply, Master Bull but it does apply to my post among others, so I apologize for the brief derail. It won't happen again.

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~Oliver Wendell Holmes~

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 92

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 6:16:38 AM

xBullx

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Hi pretty bita,

Before everyone jumps to the conclusion that I'm some cold heartless prick let me say; I'm glad your ship* made it to your final destination with you safe and sound. You are a favorite.

* denotes that your ship was more likely an airship, but all the same.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 93

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 7:37:18 AM

Aynne88

Posts: 3581
Joined: 8/29/2008
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Greetings sunshine.

If it is possible every time you speak I admire you more. I have no doubt you will survive. Not being one to care about being ostracized either, I can assure you I will survive as well. Presuming this is earth we are speaking of, I will be in possession of of my firearm and if need be I will secure my place on the lifeboat to freedom. However since I am owned by a Man that would fight to the death for me, I need not think of such things, he will make certain his woman is with him.

Sunshine you not only survive, you thrive. Your love of life and other people reminds me why I have wanderlust and a love for all people of all cultures. Thank you for the reminder.

Yes, Gorean I am not, by far, but since many of that same ilk have posted here I saw no reason not too.

Regards,
aynne

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Greetings Master Leonidas,
Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings Visitors,
Greetings girlies,

I make it to safety.

I will do whatever is necessary to live. I am very clear on this.  If that would ostracize or banish me, so be it. But I will LIVE.

well wishes,
*tgfka sunshine

*edited to add the following:

I wrote the above without sharing the context for it. I know the context, and without it, it seems harsh. But it is borne of experience. In 1989 a man held a gun to my head and was going to kill me. He told me he was going to kill me, told me I deserved to die. I got away from that man.    That man was my father.

I have been ostracized and banished by my sister and my father because I would not allow him to kill me.

I made peace with the depth of my survival instinct on that day. I'm afraid that because this question hit so close to home, I did not answer the original question. I went right to the fight/flight/fright instinct, that is, survival mode. My apologies for not answering the original question.

well wishes,
*tgfka sunshine

< Message edited by Aynne88 -- 1/13/2009 7:40:00 AM >

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Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures.

His Holiness The Dalai Lama

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 94

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 8:01:26 AM

katushka

Posts: 34
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From: the great steppe
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Presuming this is earth we are speaking of, I will be in possession of of my firearm and if need be I will secure my place on the lifeboat to freedom

It's tough for anybody to really confidently state what they would do in this situation, myself included. But I hope that if I do find myself in this position at some point in the future, I won't resort to physically threatening or injuring somebody else with a firearm so that I can take their place. Sure, I would probably survive as a result, which is nice - but I'm not sure I'd deserve to survive, knowing that I placed so little value on the lives of others. I would think that the guilt would be crippling, actually.

Sorry, Aynne - nothing personal against you. It just seems a little harsh, is all.

Apologies again for the slight derail.

< Message edited by katushka -- 1/13/2009 8:02:23 AM >

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 95

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 8:09:34 AM

Aynne88

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Joined: 8/29/2008
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No offense taken, I meant it more like assuring my place not harming someone else to take their place. Hey, I grew up in Maine, having a gun is as natural for me driving, besides with respect to being a woman, it is the ultimate equalizer

.

quote:

ORIGINAL: katushka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Presuming this is earth we are speaking of, I will be in possession of of my firearm and if need be I will secure my place on the lifeboat to freedom

It's tough for anybody to really confidently state what they would do in this situation, myself included. But I hope that if I do find myself in this position at some point in the future, I won't resort to physically threatening or injuring somebody else with a firearm so that I can take their place. Sure, I would probably survive as a result, which is nice - but I'm not sure I'd deserve to survive, knowing that I placed so little value on the lives of others. I would think that the guilt would be crippling, actually.

Sorry, Aynne - nothing personal against you. It just seems a little harsh, is all.

Apologies again for the slight derail.

_____________________________

Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures.

His Holiness The Dalai Lama

(in reply to katushka)

Post #: 96

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 8:19:34 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-fast reply-

So much for staying on point...

The derailment happened way back, my friend.

But, at least everyone's talking and debating again.

We live.

Best,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 97

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 8:42:09 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline

Good morning, Leonidas,

Howdy folks,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version). She's going down. There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind. Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

{emphasis mine, for those who are keeping their .44 dangling from their sirik ;-P}

If I was the Captain, here's how it'd go:

I have sufficient seating for ALL the free; men, women AND free children. This is the GOREAN Titanic, therefore any 'slaves' with a primary responsibility to their own children would not BE slaves on this vessel (so they are taken out of the equation).

As captain, I'd simply send my biggest & toughest men through the crowds to toss overboard (AWAY from the lifeboats) anyone who cracked under pressure & began to discount the established & accepted Gorean social hierarchy.

Once all the free women & free children were loaded, I'd support the remaining free men in their single remaining choice - they can have their designated seat OR they can place their slave in their designated seat.

No passenger lives to usurp the Captain's authority so that they can decide another free person is "less valuable" than "him & his beloved slave".

As Trevelyan has illustrated with the passage he shared, in dire life/death circumstances, Gorean men do not use slaves as "shields" to protect themselves (& free women). They instead protect the free women AND the slaves by placing themselves in the forefront. Hence I think a number of Gorean men would likely find another way in order to give their OWN seat to their loveslave.

Well wishes, & clear seas!

~Kimveri

_____________________________

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"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 98

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 9:00:07 AM

blacksword404

Posts: 1554
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Greetings sunshine.

If it is possible every time you speak I admire you more. I have no doubt you will survive. Not being one to care about being ostracized either, I can assure you I will survive as well. Presuming this is earth we are speaking of, I will be in possession of of my firearm and if need be I will secure my place on the lifeboat to freedom. However since I am owned by a Man that would fight to the death for me, I need not think of such things, he will make certain his woman is with him.

Sunshine you not only survive, you thrive. Your love of life and other people reminds me why I have wanderlust and a love for all people of all cultures. Thank you for the reminder.

Yes, Gorean I am not, by far, but since many of that same ilk have posted here I saw no reason not too.

Regards,
aynne

Well since Misk won't do his damn job i will. Flame Death button must be stuck. Gun or not you and your man will met the floor of the Thassa. You won't bogard your way onto my ship. Even if you get me you can't kill everyone.

_____________________________

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Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 99

RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 9:03:06 AM

katushka

Posts: 34
Joined: 8/31/2008
From: the great steppe
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Once all the free women & free children were loaded, I'd support the remaining free men in their single remaining choice - they can have their designated seat OR they can place their slave in their designated seat.

This is a general question. Assuming that the established order is indeed followed as per Kimveri's post above, how likely is it that a Gorean man would actually give up his seat for his loveslave? What would be the point in him doing so, when he will likely perish in the process and be unable to ensure the safety of his slave after that point anyway?

(in reply to Kimveri)

Post #: 100

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