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RE: Women and Children First


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RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 9:07:03 AM   
Aynne88


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Well luckily for me Master has his own boat and we needn't negotiate such things. I am assured a spot sunbathing naked right on the bow.  The only thing I will be shooting will be beautiful pictures unless of course Master wishes to take some of his property.   

_____________________________

Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures.

His Holiness The Dalai Lama





(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 9:12:17 AM   
Jahnaca


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Bull

Actually Bull if you read my statements I predicted it is unpredictable.  Humans can try to stack their decks to the best of their ability but it doesn’t guarantee anything in the end.  History is filled with examples of it. 

My Gorean understanding of humans is this and it’s pretty darn simple, we are not black and white.  Slapping a label on ones forehead doesn’t make one better then the other.  Therefore just because someone is Gorean (including our fictional captain) doesn’t by default mean he is all that and then some.  Might stack the deck a bit but human nature will pop it’s head.

I started my comments with the text book answer, text book because that is the static answer.  Actual practice more then likely will differ, if even for a small minority.  Be they superior Goreans or not.  Humans are unpredictable.

If recognizing the faults errr reality of human beings is some how twisting what it means to be Gorean so be it.  No harm no foul.  Though perhaps understanding and embracing what we are instead of looking through rose colored glasses of what we are not is better in the end.

Bull we can examine this topic in a clinical sterile environment and come up with pie in the sky rights and wrongs.  What does that get us?  A clinical and sterile answer devoid of the harsh reality humans actually face.  Goreans do not shy away from examining themselves for what we really are.  Imperfect, unpredictable, flawed creatures of this planet.  Each of us equally unequal to each other.

BTW Bull if one is Gorean he/she is Gorean in the middle of the Atlantic or on the moon.  Should location or time be the determining factor of whether one is or is not Gorean, then we have a bigger issue at hand.  Therefore transplanting the Titanic of Gor filled with book Goreans into the middle of the North Atlantic really doesn’t change WHO is on board, does it.

Of course your comments re Americans and Canadians kind of gives me a great idea of your state of mind.  Are you trying to stroke your epeen or does it just look that way.  I can’t tell it’s snowing again ;)

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 12:41:24 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
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From: Mountain View, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: katushka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Once all the free women & free children were loaded, I'd support the remaining free men in their single remaining choice - they can have their designated seat OR they can place their slave in their designated seat.

This is a general question. Assuming that the established order is indeed followed as per Kimveri's post above, how likely is it that a Gorean man would actually give up his seat for his loveslave? What would be the point in him doing so, when he will likely perish in the process and be unable to ensure the safety of his slave after that point anyway?


Two quick comments, one in response to my friend Kimveri's post, and one to katushka's.

The order of nature says that as a man, I have a biological predisposition to dominate women, just as women have a biological predisposition to behave submissively towards me.  Part of this predisposition is the male instinct to provide for and protect women.  Although I had not considered it much before this thread, I think that a Gorean man is generally going to protect a woman whether she is free or slave.  He may use a slave to accomplish a tactical objective, as is done several times in the series, and will punish her harshly if she is displeasing, but generally is drawn to protecting her.

Regarding katushka's question, I think most Gorean men would feel that there is no situation that they cannot survive.  Had I been on the actual Titanic, I would have gotten my women and children in the boats, but I would have been 100% confident that I would survive depite not having a seat in the boat.  Several men did survive despite not being in a lifeboat when the ship went down, like Lightoller whom I mentioned in my first post in this thread.  Where it gets trickier is if I have to divide my efforts between taking care of myself, and taking care of women and children.  If they are safely in the boat, I am confident in my ability to handle the situation.  Certainly, there are times when that confidence would be misplaced, but men generally tend to be confident rather than realistic.

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to katushka)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 1:45:17 PM   
Jahnaca


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Well said Trevelyan

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 2:42:25 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Tal Trevelyan,

Very well said. If I may add some to it, in way of explanation within human society.

" Patriarchy is advanced as being beneficial for human evolution and social organization on many grounds, crossing several disciplines. Although biology may explain its existence (see below), arguments for its social utility have been made since ancient times. These include elements of Greek Stoic Philosophy and the Roman social structure based on the pater familias,[20] but are also found in Akkadian records of Babylonian and Assyrian laws. George Lakoff proposes an ancient dichotomy of "Strict Father" as opposed to "Nurturing Parent" models of ethical theory (SFM and NPM).[21] In general, the main lines of argument are either pragmatic—namely, the reproductive advantages of male-as-provider—[22] or ethical—that any perceived male authority is contingent upon underlying perceptions of duty of care. "

The duty of care in the above paragraph is linked to a legal explanation of it, but there are several philosophical websites that explain it better, as applied to the paragraph above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy

This is one of the points I make often when someone says the want to have slaves or be the head of a household. Along with all of this comes the responsibility.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 3:04:49 PM   
Kirata


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Tal Trevelyan,
 
Damn well said!
 
I see nothing Gorean in being unable to love or acknowledge the humaness of a slave. Nor anything Gorean about a crass fuck-the-weak mentality. Nature is what it is. But human nature includes an inherent capacity for honor and sacrifice. In that spirit, I would like to add another quote to the one you posted earlier. This one comes from Blood Brothers:
 
"If you do not fight," I asked Cuwignaka, "who will protect the weak, the innocent?"
 
Bull saw a sorting function implied in the original question (i.e., Who is Gorean?). The way I sort it, there is nothing Gorean about being lacking in humanity.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata

 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/13/2009 3:13:10 PM >

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 3:05:01 PM   
blacksword404


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Joined: 1/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Well luckily for me Master has his own boat and we needn't negotiate such things. I am assured a spot sunbathing naked right on the bow.  The only thing I will be shooting will be beautiful pictures unless of course Master wishes to take some of his property.   


Thats a nice serene picture. A nice relaxing day on the boat. Lounging and taking in the suns rays. Until i jump aboard, commandeer the boat and throw you both off . Wait you are naked.  Hmm. No nevermind. Over you go. No matter how you picture it, it ends with you two getting thrown overboard.

That will teach ya to try play Captain.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 3:16:15 PM   
Aynne88


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Aye Aye Captain. Good thing I took all those swimming lessons! Hopefully it won't be in the water where I live, Maine oceans tend to get pretty "nippy." 

_____________________________

Life is as dear to a mute creature as it is to man. Just as one wants happiness and fears pain, just as one wants to live and not die, so do other creatures.

His Holiness The Dalai Lama





(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 3:29:29 PM   
LordShadow


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Think I'll answer the question then read the responses, will be interesting to say the least.
If I were the Captain, it would be Free Men first, their Companions (if they so chose), then slaves. Free Woman without Companions get the left overs...if there are any.




< Message edited by LordShadow -- 1/13/2009 3:37:26 PM >


_____________________________

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Shadow

True beauty is not seen with the eyes but rather felt in the heart...

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Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 5:48:51 PM   
Nemesys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The way I sort it, there is nothing Gorean about being lacking in humanity.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata



Exactly.  Humanistic justice is a personal choice... if you can back your choices up.

Consider the example of Tarl when he places the life of a slave over the life of a free man.  (Raiders of Gor, edited slightly for length)

I looked upon (Surbus) with loathing, despising him. How ugly he was, with his fierce beard, the narrow eyes, the ear gone from the right side of his face. I had heard of him, and well. I knew him to be pirate; and I knew him to be a slaver, and murderer, and thief; I knew him to be a cruel and worthless man, abominable, truly of Port Kar and, as I looked upon him, the filth and rottenness, I felt nothing but disgust.

In his arms he held, stripped, the bound body of a slave girl. It was she who had served me the night before, before Surbus, and his cutthroats and pirates, had entered the tavern. I had not much noticed her. She was thin, and not very pretty. She had blond hair, and, as I recalled, blue eyes. She was not much of a slave. I had not paid her much attention. I remembered that she had begged me to protect her and that I, of course, had refused.

“I am not pleased with her,”he said to the proprietor.

“I am sorry, Noble Surbus,”said the man, “I shall have her beaten.”

“I am not pleased with her!”cried Surbus.

“You wish her destroyed?”asked the man.

“Yes,”said Surbus, “destroyed.”

“Her price,”said the proprietor, “is five silver tarsks.”

From his pouch Surbus placed five silver tarsks, one after the other, on the counter.

“I will give you six,”I said to the proprietor.  Surbus scowled at me.

“I have sold her for five,”said the proprietor, “to this noble gentleman. Do not interfere, Stranger, this man is Surbus.”

Surbus threw back his head and laughed. “Yes,”he said, “I am Surbus.”

“I am Bosk,”I said, “from the Marshes.”

Surbus looked at me, and then laughed. He turned away from the counter now, taking the girl from his shoulder and holding her, bound, in his arms. I saw that she was conscious, and her eyes red from weeping. But she seemed numb, beyond feeling.

“What are you going to do with her?”I asked.

“I am going to throw her to the urts,”said Surbus.

“Please,”she whispered, “please, Surbus.”

“To the urts!”laughed Surbus, looking down at her.

She closed her eyes.

The giant urts, silken and blazing-eyed, living mostly on the garbage in the canals, are not stranger to bodies, both living and dead, found cast into their waters.

“To the urts!”laughed Surbus.

I looked upon him, Surbus, slaver, pirate, thief, murderer. This man was totally evil. I felt nothing but hatred, and an ugly, irrepressible disgust of him.

“No,”I said.

He looked at me, startled.

“No,”I said, and moved the blade from the sheath.

“She is mine,”he said.

“Surbus often,”said the proprietor, “thus destroys a girl who has not pleased him.”

“She is mine,”said Surbus. “What right have you to interfere?”

“The right of Port Kar,”I said, “to do what pleases him.”

Surbus threw the girl from him and, with a swift, clean motion, unsheathed his blade.

“You are a fool, Stranger,”said the proprietor. “That is Surbus, one of the finest swords in Port Kar.”

Our discourse was brief.

Then, with a cry of hatred and elation, my blade, parallel to the ground, that it not wedge itself between the ribs of its target, passed through his body. I kicked him from the blade and withdrew the bloodied steel.

The proprietor was looking at me, wide-eyed.

“Who are you?”he asked.

“Bosk,”I told him, “Bosk from the Marshes.”

Several of the men around the tables, roused by the flash of steel, had awakened.

They sat there, startled.

I moved the blade in a semicircle, facing them. None of them moved against me.

I tore off some of his tunic and cleaned the blade on it.

He lay there on his back, blood moving from his mouth, the chest of his tunic scarlet, fighting for breath.

I looked down on him. I had been of the warriors. I knew he would not live long.

I felt no compunction. He was totally evil.

I went to the slave girl and cut the binding fiber that fastened her ankles and wrists. 

It was good that Surbus lay dying. He was evil.


The sorting choices of the captain of the Gorean Titanic may be clear... but his choices depend upon his ability to enforce them, and they may be meaningless.  Others may have something else to say about them.

I wish all well, N



< Message edited by Nemesys -- 1/13/2009 5:51:11 PM >


_____________________________

"The knife is no less a knife because it makes no sound." -Tarl Cabot

http://goreanunity.org

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 6:01:03 PM   
amelliagrace


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General question -
 
Does anyone see the Captain having a third viable option, other than:
1.  Setting a seating priority (regardless of who's at the top of the list and who's at the bottom) and doing his best to enforce it, knowing no matter what prioritization he uses, there will be loss of beauty, value, those of character and those lacking? (This scenario is not mutually exclusive with attempting to augment the chances of survival for those who don't have a seat in a lifeboat.)
2.  Hosting a  free for all, fight to the death, chaotic melee likely resulting in the loss of more life than necessary?
 
Grace

(in reply to Nemesys)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 6:36:24 PM   
tyrasia


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this girl offers the Masters greetings,
this one offers the Mistresses greetings,
greetings to all who serve,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

Aye Aye Captain. Good thing I took all those swimming lessons! Hopefully it won't be in the water where I live, Maine oceans tend to get pretty "nippy." 


Unless specifically told not to by a Free Person, this girl would not consider swimming as her first option .... why swim when one can salvage items from the boat and build another boat?  If that one sinks, then this girl can swim.

this one wishes the Masters well,
a girl wishes the Mistresses well,
serve well, all who serve.


_____________________________

'Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain.'

'If i can laugh at something 3 times i can deal with it to it's completion' ~tyrasia~

(in reply to Aynne88)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 8:33:49 PM   
LarabysLair


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Joined: 5/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys

I looked upon (Surbus) with loathing, despising him. How ugly he was, with his fierce beard, the narrow eyes, the ear gone from the right side of his face. I had heard of him, and well. I knew him to be pirate; and I knew him to be a slaver, and murderer, and thief; I knew him to be a cruel and worthless man, abominable, truly of Port Kar and, as I looked upon him, the filth and rottenness, I felt nothing but disgust.

In his arms he held, stripped, the bound body of a slave girl. It was she who had served me the night before, before Surbus, and his cutthroats and pirates, had entered the tavern. I had not much noticed her. She was thin, and not very pretty. She had blond hair, and, as I recalled, blue eyes. She was not much of a slave. I had not paid her much attention. I remembered that she had begged me to protect her and that I, of course, had refused.

“I am not pleased with her,”he said to the proprietor.

“I am sorry, Noble Surbus,”said the man, “I shall have her beaten.”

“I am not pleased with her!”cried Surbus.

“You wish her destroyed?”asked the man.

“Yes,”said Surbus, “destroyed.”

“Her price,”said the proprietor, “is five silver tarsks.”

From his pouch Surbus placed five silver tarsks, one after the other, on the counter.

“I will give you six,”I said to the proprietor.  Surbus scowled at me.

“I have sold her for five,”said the proprietor, “to this noble gentleman. Do not interfere, Stranger, this man is Surbus.”

Surbus threw back his head and laughed. “Yes,”he said, “I am Surbus.”

“I am Bosk,”I said, “from the Marshes.”

Surbus looked at me, and then laughed. He turned away from the counter now, taking the girl from his shoulder and holding her, bound, in his arms. I saw that she was conscious, and her eyes red from weeping. But she seemed numb, beyond feeling.

“What are you going to do with her?”I asked.

“I am going to throw her to the urts,”said Surbus.

“Please,”she whispered, “please, Surbus.”

“To the urts!”laughed Surbus, looking down at her.

She closed her eyes.

The giant urts, silken and blazing-eyed, living mostly on the garbage in the canals, are not stranger to bodies, both living and dead, found cast into their waters.

“To the urts!”laughed Surbus.

I looked upon him, Surbus, slaver, pirate, thief, murderer. This man was totally evil. I felt nothing but hatred, and an ugly, irrepressible disgust of him.

“No,”I said.

He looked at me, startled.

“No,”I said, and moved the blade from the sheath.

“She is mine,”he said.

“Surbus often,”said the proprietor, “thus destroys a girl who has not pleased him.”

“She is mine,”said Surbus. “What right have you to interfere?”

“The right of Port Kar,”I said, “to do what pleases him.”

Surbus threw the girl from him and, with a swift, clean motion, unsheathed his blade.

“You are a fool, Stranger,”said the proprietor. “That is Surbus, one of the finest swords in Port Kar.”

Our discourse was brief.

Then, with a cry of hatred and elation, my blade, parallel to the ground, that it not wedge itself between the ribs of its target, passed through his body. I kicked him from the blade and withdrew the bloodied steel.

The proprietor was looking at me, wide-eyed.

“Who are you?”he asked.

“Bosk,”I told him, “Bosk from the Marshes.”

Several of the men around the tables, roused by the flash of steel, had awakened.

They sat there, startled.

I moved the blade in a semicircle, facing them. None of them moved against me.

I tore off some of his tunic and cleaned the blade on it.

He lay there on his back, blood moving from his mouth, the chest of his tunic scarlet, fighting for breath.

I looked down on him. I had been of the warriors. I knew he would not live long.

I felt no compunction. He was totally evil.

I went to the slave girl and cut the binding fiber that fastened her ankles and wrists. 

It was good that Surbus lay dying. He was evil.




It is also very interesting to note that this girl was to become very valuable to Bosk as his scribe slave in his holdings. In fact she was helpful in making Bosk quite wealthy over the years.

If Bosk were to have freed any slave, it was she that seemed most worthy of it.

You just never know the value of a human being, do you?

LL

(in reply to Nemesys)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 10:25:29 PM   
FrankAr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

There's no radio on Gor. Even those in lifeboats are sitting in the Gorean version of the North Atlantic without food and fresh water. Barring some incredible stroke of luck, everyone will die. Just a matter of how and when.

Even if we manage to kill food from the sea, with no fresh water, we won't last long.

But then, there are no motorized ships on Gor either.

Tim


Tal Tim,

With your knowledge, has there been any passages that had ice bergs on Gor ? For as I have not read all, I was just pondering this thought, as everyone is taking the titanic to Gor, and not just being a Gorean on the Titanic, which are two completely different versions.

Be well.

Frank Ar.


< Message edited by FrankAr -- 1/13/2009 10:26:44 PM >


_____________________________

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Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

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Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Women and Children First - 1/13/2009 11:59:56 PM   
Camerius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

There's no radio on Gor. Even those in lifeboats are sitting in the Gorean version of the North Atlantic without food and fresh water. Barring some incredible stroke of luck, everyone will die. Just a matter of how and when.

Even if we manage to kill food from the sea, with no fresh water, we won't last long.

But then, there are no motorized ships on Gor either.

Tim


Tal Tim,

With your knowledge, has there been any passages that had ice bergs on Gor ? For as I have not read all, I was just pondering this thought, as everyone is taking the titanic to Gor, and not just being a Gorean on the Titanic, which are two completely different versions.

Be well.

Frank Ar.




Tal Frank,

Roughly the last 2/3 part of  Beasts of Gor takes place in the freezing cold wastes of the Gorean Arctic and with the conclusion of it to take place inside a iceberg, so we do have a clear reference to it that there is.


I wish you well,

Camerius


Edit: Fully agrees with Jahna, Kirata, Orion and Trevelyan.


< Message edited by Camerius -- 1/14/2009 12:03:36 AM >


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Women and Children First - 1/14/2009 6:17:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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Tal Frank,

Exactly as Camerius said.

Live well,

Tim

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Women and Children First - 1/14/2009 9:40:42 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
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Greetings

I think that is the key, removing from our minds that being Gorean (in the books or here) automatically gives you this personality, values, codes, ethics and all that other good stuff we seem to express.  Sadly that is not the case at all.  Nor can we concluded that years of indoctrination (be it living in X culture or what ever) automatically strips people of humanity for ever.  

It is my conclusion that the male of the human species is generally hard wired as the protector of the species.  Protector of what?  Well protector of those weaker and what they possess.  It is one of the back bones of community living.  Cultures may well have developed codes surrounding this natural instinct one of which is “women and children first” which is ages old and certainly not a recent development in human history.  How each culture practices this differs to some degree.  Yet even across cultural back drops cases where what is culturally acceptable and what really happens are found quite frequently.

The Gorean Philosophy leans towards humans finding their biological nature, not to turn our backs from it or deny it in favor of social constructs and lies.  If it is in a given man’s nature to be protective of his female (for example), what part of the philosophical codes forbid it?  Social constructs regarding status?  Wouldn’t turning off such a natural drive be as wrong as not embracing a man’s natural dominance?

In times of crisis human beings often amaze ourselves.  Complete strangers band together to serve a common goal.   Acts of amazing heroism take place.  Sworn enemies can suddenly become closer then brothers.  Or the opposite happens too.  Yet the banding together and working together concept seems to work well for humans.  Our ability to think about others, acts of selflessness etc is one of our strongest strengths and one of deepest pitfalls.  

I believe on the Gorean Titanic you will at the end see a broad spectrum of human nature being displayed, some for the better and some for the worse.  Definitely not cookie cutter anything though.  Depending on whose eyes are watching, some will be deemed good and some deemed wrong.  I wonder though, how many on that boat are sitting there wondering “how Gorean” some one is.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

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Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Women and Children First - 1/14/2009 10:02:09 AM   
Jaird


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Tal
As I see it, I would kill any that got in my way and then Kill more that wanted to drive me under. That is most of what I  see that other Free Men would do. As for the Free women? (hands them each ten pounds of lead to make them sink faster)
One Submissive has called me dangerouse on this site. Want to guess why?
No I suppose not so I will tell you all. Because I really believe In real slavery. Do any of you actually believe in real slavery?
None that I have seen so far.
John H Varner II
AKA Jaird

(in reply to liltawny1)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Women and Children First - 1/14/2009 10:08:48 AM   
ElizabethAnne


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Hello Jaird,

Is this what you would do if you were Captain of the Titanic?  Even though, the ultimate responsiblity for all the souls on board rests with you?   The hell with everyone and anyone that stood in your way to a lifeboat....even if you were Captain?   Which I believe was the Op's question.

I wish you well,

ElizabethAnne

(in reply to Jaird)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Women and Children First - 1/14/2009 11:43:07 AM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
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quote:

Tal
As I see it, I would kill any that got in my way and then Kill more that wanted to drive me under. That is most of what I  see that other Free Men would do. As for the Free women? (hands them each ten pounds of lead to make them sink faster)
One Submissive has called me dangerouse on this site. Want to guess why?
No I suppose not so I will tell you all. Because I really believe In real slavery. Do any of you actually believe in real slavery?
None that I have seen so far.
John H Varner II
AKA Jaird



Jaird

Since you were so forthcoming in expressing how you would handle the situation, i felt i could point out one possible outcome:

Everyone on board would have a better chance of survival if you were captain, since with all of that lead, you would be at the bottom of the ocean.

< Message edited by eponavet -- 1/14/2009 12:35:55 PM >


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~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


(in reply to Jaird)
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