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RE: Women and Children First


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RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 8:00:50 AM   
starshineowned


Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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Greetings..

Understanding how Master Leonidas presented the scenerio..it caused a glitch for me in thought by the wording Gorean Titantic. I know some have made referrence to the land/seascape depicted in the books to illustrate where this is actually or could be taking place..but I had to revert back to the fact that this is about Living Goreans in the here and now reality, and roleplay or fantasy is not a part of that when expressing how one views going about this..so the fantasy part was then dismissed, and the meaning of Gorean Titantic came to mean a ship owned/operated by Goreans..nothing more.

Given thats the case I'm taking this as...What Mistress Jahnaca mentioned in her last post about the Captain being bound by some set of codes would make him all the more set in himself and his crew following those..(and am having to rely on that being passenger safety first, and down with the ship he/crew go if need be to ensure that obligation)..if he/they were Gorean. Sadly or gladly depending on your view..it is good to know that books like this are in existence to illustrate things that are defining and important amongst humans incase they did not grow up learning and living to be natural, values that are of importance, and the morals that are a crock of you know what that make you like sheeples..etc. etc.

However, as I also mentioned in the post I made before aside from the Capt/crew role/duty..I also realize that we are human, and as strong to those codes, values, morals as one might feel when not faced with life or death of themselves might wane in a digressing manner..where as also those that did not by all accounts fit what most would call Gorean behavior or mentality might excel to be the shining examples, and only required such a drastic choice to remove the veil that society had blinded them with all that time prior.

Just a side thought..not that it would change matters much in a chaotic situation but doesn't the Capt. have firearms?

starshine

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 1/15/2009 8:03:08 AM >


_____________________________

"And in the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years." --Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 1:24:54 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
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Tal Leonidas,

I'm going to start this over, hopefully omit the rhetorical bickering and dispense with the frivolous hype. This is simply my opinion, take it for what its worth and at that I’m going to respond simply to your inquiry as best I can.

Considering the morality and philosophical tenants of the Gorean man as I see them, understanding Duty and Responsibility of Authority as I do, suspecting that Maritime or Naval command and control would be similar to what I recognize and knowing that the outcome of the Titanic’s saga wasn’t going to determine the survival of humanity I’ll simply say the following.

“Attention all passengers this is a message from the Captain, We have encountered an emergency that requires us to evacuate the ship. You have all received instructional procedures regarding said emergency prior to debarkation. This will be done in an orderly and precise manner to ensure your safety; anyone failing to comply will meet harsh reprisal from the ships crew. Only the Captain has authority for any alterations of said plans. Our evacuation plan requires all free of the City of ____ and its allies to proceed orderly to the main deck for seat assignment and loading aboard the lifeboats, bring with you no more property than can be contained in the immediate space of your lap. Each person is to be wearing the life vests found in your quarters and do not attempt circumvent the orderly process or you will be dealt with. Adjustments  Violation of my directives will be considered mutinous to which death is the only sentence. We thank you for your sailing with us and hope to see you again soon.”


Now in address to a larger audience than just you Leonidas I'll add:

Remember A Good Captain(man) will see to his ship. She is his love and life, the ship and everything about it are his utmost concern. He will have plans and procedures for almost every contingency. He will indeed have one for such an occasion as has been proposed.

That being said and because slaves have yet again become the foremost important issue I suggest we remember that slaves are property, male or female. Remember that GOREANS believe(d) that, hence this being their morality and I doubt they would they understand why you see this as cruel or uncaring. In fact men sacrificing their lives to save slaves might be the stories of folly told in paga taverns across Gor. Simply because some see human nature as all encompassing and in the end more common than not, it would seem just in this thread alone that would not be the case. And it certainly isn’t the case in the world we presently occupy. If you think so, I suggest you get out more.

Many of you reading this may not like all the aspects Gorean life and therefore seek to distortor alter the ideology in varying degrees to fit your own hope for something more warm and fuzzy, harsh and brutal or whatever need you feel you have. Some of you might be afraid to face the truth of what a Gorean might actually be, and that too is certainly justified with the way many are presently conditioned. But a Gorean is what he is, Norman described him well in the books, so either accept him or not, embrace his nature or not, applaud his convictions or not. But do not rob him of his sovereign identity simply to adopt his banner as your own. In doing this as you distort his beliefs, values and customs alters the very premise of what he is and in that confuse the very existence you claim to admire. Whether you can be him or not is a matter of your own convictions and not of his person and social sacrifices.


In conclusion my concepts of Gor are my own, I have in recent months went as far as saying I won’t again tell you that I am a Gorean, I am simply attempting to apply what I see the philosophies to be. I have allowed each of you individually to determine if I am Gorean or if my ideas are Gorean. I’m not saying my way is right, nor anyone else’s for that matter. Let us all judge in our own capacity. The man that OP’ed this thread is a great Gorean in my eyes, and reckon he’s judging us all, I hope he won’t become disillusioned yet again; we miss him when he’s gone.

He, after all does this to us…….Inspires humanity.

I wish I wasn’t so damn long winded in my thoughts, I really tried to make this short. 

These thoughts have been my own, so take them or leave them.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/15/2009 2:06:38 PM >


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 1:44:28 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
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Tal Nemesys,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemesys


Consider the example of Tarl when he places the life of a slave over the life of a free man.  (Raiders of Gor, edited slightly for length)

I looked upon (Surbus) with loathing, despising him. How ugly he was, with his fierce beard, the narrow eyes, the ear gone from the right side of his face. I had heard of him, and well. I knew him to be pirate; and I knew him to be a slaver, and murderer, and thief; I knew him to be a cruel and worthless man, abominable, truly of Port Kar and, as I looked upon him, the filth and rottenness, I felt nothing but disgust.

In his arms he held, stripped, the bound body of a slave girl. It was she who had served me the night before, before Surbus, and his cutthroats and pirates, had entered the tavern. I had not much noticed her. She was thin, and not very pretty. She had blond hair, and, as I recalled, blue eyes. She was not much of a slave. I had not paid her much attention. I remembered that she had begged me to protect her and that I, of course, had refused.

“I am not pleased with her,”he said to the proprietor.

“I am sorry, Noble Surbus,”said the man, “I shall have her beaten.”

“I am not pleased with her!”cried Surbus.

“You wish her destroyed?”asked the man.

“Yes,”said Surbus, “destroyed.”

“Her price,”said the proprietor, “is five silver tarsks.”

From his pouch Surbus placed five silver tarsks, one after the other, on the counter.

“I will give you six,”I said to the proprietor.  Surbus scowled at me.

“I have sold her for five,”said the proprietor, “to this noble gentleman. Do not interfere, Stranger, this man is Surbus.”

Surbus threw back his head and laughed. “Yes,”he said, “I am Surbus.”

“I am Bosk,”I said, “from the Marshes.”

Surbus looked at me, and then laughed. He turned away from the counter now, taking the girl from his shoulder and holding her, bound, in his arms. I saw that she was conscious, and her eyes red from weeping. But she seemed numb, beyond feeling.

“What are you going to do with her?”I asked.

“I am going to throw her to the urts,”said Surbus.

“Please,”she whispered, “please, Surbus.”

“To the urts!”laughed Surbus, looking down at her.

She closed her eyes.

The giant urts, silken and blazing-eyed, living mostly on the garbage in the canals, are not stranger to bodies, both living and dead, found cast into their waters.

“To the urts!”laughed Surbus.

I looked upon him, Surbus, slaver, pirate, thief, murderer. This man was totally evil. I felt nothing but hatred, and an ugly, irrepressible disgust of him.

“No,”I said.

He looked at me, startled.

“No,”I said, and moved the blade from the sheath.

“She is mine,”he said.

“Surbus often,”said the proprietor, “thus destroys a girl who has not pleased him.”

“She is mine,”said Surbus. “What right have you to interfere?”

“The right of Port Kar,”I said, “to do what pleases him.”

Surbus threw the girl from him and, with a swift, clean motion, unsheathed his blade.

“You are a fool, Stranger,”said the proprietor. “That is Surbus, one of the finest swords in Port Kar.”

Our discourse was brief.

Then, with a cry of hatred and elation, my blade, parallel to the ground, that it not wedge itself between the ribs of its target, passed through his body. I kicked him from the blade and withdrew the bloodied steel.

The proprietor was looking at me, wide-eyed.

“Who are you?”he asked.

“Bosk,”I told him, “Bosk from the Marshes.”

Several of the men around the tables, roused by the flash of steel, had awakened.

They sat there, startled.

I moved the blade in a semicircle, facing them. None of them moved against me.

I tore off some of his tunic and cleaned the blade on it.

He lay there on his back, blood moving from his mouth, the chest of his tunic scarlet, fighting for breath.

I looked down on him. I had been of the warriors. I knew he would not live long.

I felt no compunction. He was totally evil.

I went to the slave girl and cut the binding fiber that fastened her ankles and wrists. 

It was good that Surbus lay dying. He was evil.




Tarl to his benefit or detriment existed with two separate moralities at this point; I believe this was well stated by Norman. So was the above really a Gorean action, oh yes it ended in Tarl’s benefit much like it always does for James Bond, and at that he saved the slave and the action profited him mightily in the process, but again I’m compelled to remind you that it was pointed out several times that he had not yet claimed his Gorean nature (morality) in the book Raiders. In fact he struggled harshly through a couple more books on this very subject. This scene was a little too much about good versus evil and moments of chivalry to sport my concept of what is Gorean.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Nemesys)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 1:49:07 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

Greetings!

I thought I would just jump in Bull's pocket. Won't be any bother at all...


~tee


Heck, I thought that was a pleasant deposit of coinage. But here it is a voracious deposit of what would simply be pleasing.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to subtee)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 1:54:18 PM   
xBullx


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Joined: 10/8/2005
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Tal Trevelyan,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

The order of nature says that as a man, I have a biological predisposition to dominate women, just as women have a biological predisposition to behave submissively towards me.  Part of this predisposition is the male instinct to provide for and protect women.  Although I had not considered it much before this thread, I think that a Gorean man is generally going to protect a woman whether she is free or slave.  He may use a slave to accomplish a tactical objective, as is done several times in the series, and will punish her harshly if she is displeasing, but generally is drawn to protecting her.

Regarding katushka's question, I think most Gorean men would feel that there is no situation that they cannot survive.  Had I been on the actual Titanic, I would have gotten my women and children in the boats, but I would have been 100% confident that I would survive depite not having a seat in the boat.  Several men did survive despite not being in a lifeboat when the ship went down, like Lightoller whom I mentioned in my first post in this thread.  Where it gets trickier is if I have to divide my efforts between taking care of myself, and taking care of women and children.  If they are safely in the boat, I am confident in my ability to handle the situation.  Certainly, there are times when that confidence would be misplaced, but men generally tend to be confident rather than realistic.





I’m going to say this to you, you did make a very romantic and stirring post about your woman and what you personally would do, being the man that you are. I admire much in what I know of you. I also think you are the perfect example of part of the perils involved in having a love slave. In this post I don’t dismiss your actions as being or not being Gorean, but there is a reason Norman dedicated books to this subject. I ask you Trevelyan to remember yourself as a young warrior before you knew love, then consider what you believe a Gorean might really think as the ship’s Captain. Remember the Captain is about to watch his true love sink into her watery grave.


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 2:01:42 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16549
Joined: 3/14/2005
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~FR~

Has anyone else noticed....for a group of people who keep insisting being Gorean isn't about owning slaves, our discussions seem to primarily revolve around issues involving slaves.

Just an observation.

Live well,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 2:14:37 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

~FR~

Has anyone else noticed....for a group of people who keep insisting being Gorean isn't about owning slaves, our discussions seem to primarily revolve around issues involving slaves.

Just an observation.

Live well,

Tim



Isn't?  I rather believe it is simply part of the grand scheme. Not the reason, bit a factor. This thread was meant to discuss the morality of the Gorean as it applies to himself, his women, his community and his belief system. I think Leonidas specifically steered us to the free versus property concepts within the Gorean Morality.

But yes, we seem to end up discussing little wenches a good deal of the time, perhaps it's because we allow them to read and write here.



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 2:31:31 PM   
MasterBenedict


Posts: 308
Status: offline
The Women get a side seat-(Of Course)

_____________________________

If you can LAUGH at it you can live WITH it!

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 7:34:02 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7249
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

it was pointed out several times that he had not yet claimed his Gorean nature (morality) in the book Raiders. In fact he struggled harshly through a couple more books on this very subject.

Tal Bull,
 
Without debating the Surbus episode in Raiders, which is book 6, the quote I posted came from Blood Brothers, which is book 18, and Trevelyan's example was taken from Renegades, which is Book 23. So I will just observe that I do not think the entirety of the trend of thought with which you differ can be dismissed on the basis you suggest here.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/15/2009 7:39:42 PM >

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 9:14:58 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline
Tal Bull,

OK, where to start...

How do Gorean men feel about, think about and treat their women?

Well, it is emphasized over and over in the books that slaves are property, a form of livestock.  Men use them for their own pleasure, and to further their own objectives.  They are bought and sold.  There are paga slaves and coin girls.  In Port Kar, slave girls are used as bait by the Urt hunters, and Tarl uses one for bait when trying to capture a tarn.  Any number of times in the books they are used for some tactial purpose, as in the battle with the Kur in Marauders.  (Side note: it seems to me that while these slaves are placed in dangerous situations, some thought has been given to keeping them safe in the danger.)  If they refuse to heel, they are tied to an oar.  If they refuse to obey, they are whipped.  If they refuse to run to a man's furs, they are bound in an ice house.  If they refuse to submit, they might be hamstrung.

And what of free women?  Well, generally they are admired and protected.  But, if they are without the protection of men who share their Home Stone in the presence of men who do not, they will likely become slaves.  If a free companion displeases her man, she may find herself enslaved.  There is a stunning passage in one of the books set during the Cosian invasion where a group of free women are begging the driver of a bread wagon for food.  He does not enslave them, but makes them face strip themselves, and if I recall also makes them expose their breasts.  Those who do not expose themselves get no bread.  And, for me, the truly stunning passage, in Mercenaries, where Tarl rapes an up-to-a-few-hours-ago free woman at length in front of her daughter during the night he spends in the Semnium.

There are many examples of free men who love their slaves.  If I recall correctly, every single one of the "slave" books ends with love slave uniting with love master - and those men weren't wimps, but the most Gorean of men.  Jason finds his love slave.  And even slaves like Fish and Tarsk, when freed, find their love slaves.  Granted, love slaves must be kept in the strictest bondage of all, but there are lots and lots and lots of examples of men who love their slave.

And then there is the fall of Ar's Station.  The free men protected all of the women, free and slave, while they retreated to the piers.  If a tactical advantage could be obtained by abandoning either a free woman or slave to the Cosians, it was taken.

So how to Gorean men think about, feel about and treat their women? 

It seems to me Gorean men use women for their purposes.  They accept the notion of the "order of nature" that it is natural for men to dominate women and women to submit to men.  A free woman's clothing, movements and sexuality are rigidly controlled by men, because her purpose is to be the respectable bearer of free children with clear identification of paternity.  They may be free otherwise, but in regards to men's purpose for them, they are not free - and they may be enslaved almost any time at the will of a man.  As I said above, men use slaves for their own pleasure and to further their objectives.

Because each has her purpose and value, and because Gorean men can and do love both slave and free, it seems to me that Gorean men protect both free and slave women.  Far more respect is shown to free women because of their purpose, but at least minimum attention is given to keeping slaves alive and whole.  I can't think of an example of a slave's life being thrown away.  Risked, certainly, but sacrificed?  No. 

Now, just so you don't think Gorean men coddle their slaves, remember that they expect them to be obedient, pleasing and responsive, and are willing to use any measure to include killing them if necessary to get the behavior they demand.  But, while their methods are harsh, they only hamstring or kill a girl when they feel that she will not comply and therefore cannot be used for their purposes except as an example for other slave girls.

On reflection, what would I do if I were captain of the Gorean Titanic?

First, I would recall that this is not just a question of the relative worth of a free woman or a slave.  I would recall my favorite sentence from the exposition of Gorean Morality in Marauders:  "Many Earth moralities encourage resignation and accommodation; Gorean morality is bent more toward conquest and defiance; many Earth moralities encourage tenderness, pity and gentleness, sweetness; Gorean morality encourages honor, courage, hardness and strength."

I would call my XO and Chief of the Boat to me.  I would tell them to make sure that everyone on the ship knows we are going to defy Thassa and that every one of us is going to survive.  I would have the XO give me the exact number of people we can put on the lifeboats, and the exact number of free men, free women and children, and male and female slaves we have aboard.  The Chief would give me the exact number of our crew.  My intention is to fill every lifeboat seat in this priority:  free women and children, female slaves, free men, male slaves, crew. The Chief will ensure that each lifeboat will have sufficient crew members for safety.  The remainder of the crew, the male slaves, the free men, and if necessary some female slaves, will go in the water.

While the Chief and I execute that part of the plan, the XO and a few officers and NCOs that he picks will develop and implement a plan to ensure the survival of those of us who won't have a seat in the lifeboats.  Build a raft, coat us all in grease and wool blankets, I don't care.  XO, figure it out and make it happen.

If we are lucky enough to have one or more of those seaborne tarns, they will be launched to find other ships in the vicinity to take us all aboard.

The Chief and I will load and launch the lifeboats.  The XO will build his raft, or whatever he is going to do.  If any passenger or crew panics, they will be dealt with, probably by putting them in slave bracelets.  (Chief, your job, put a detail together to handle troublemakers.)  At the last safe moment before the ship goes under, we will execute the XO's plan for the rest of us.

As the ship goes under, I will probably weap; she is my love, but I cannot save her.

Because we are smart and strong and hard, we will all survive.  We will make it back home.  My slave will serve me wine, and then I will make sure she won't walk right for a week.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan



< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 1/15/2009 9:35:04 PM >


_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 9:45:11 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

it was pointed out several times that he had not yet claimed his Gorean nature (morality) in the book Raiders. In fact he struggled harshly through a couple more books on this very subject.

Tal Bull,
 
Without debating the Surbus episode in Raiders, which is book 6, the quote I posted came from Blood Brothers, which is book 18, and Trevelyan's example was taken from Renegades, which is Book 23. So I will just observe that I do not think the entirety of the trend of thought with which you differ can be dismissed on the basis you suggest here.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata
 


Tal Kirata,


Differ? In what way...I merely pointed out that the books commented upon this obvious point up through at least Maruaders. I myself often wonder if Tarl will ever relinquished his dual morality. Maybe this made him a better man than the Goreans he encountered. He is after all our stories hero.

I can't claim to be any better than Tarl in what I have discovered about myself as a man when it comes to understanding the Gorean morality, but to assume he is anything more than an innocent tour guide might have me even more confused than.............

The truth be told I don't see where any of the quotes you have brought to bare draw any comparison to this Titanic senario. But I'm sure that's just me.

I had a little birdie tell me recently that it is suspected that our evolutionary course is now directed away from ogre like men dominating weaker creatures and that we must accept that or travel the way of the dodo.

Well it doesn't matter, I'm sure love will find a way.

Edited cause I forgot my manners

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/15/2009 9:58:06 PM >


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 9:57:12 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
Tal Trevelyan,

I suspect if we are going through all that trouble for the survival of every living creature because it is that important, perhaps we should have had enough friggin' lifeboats....

Ahhhhh, the Titanic is truly the same story, different planet.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 10:01:17 PM   
eponavet


Posts: 406
Joined: 8/18/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Tal Trevelyan,

I suspect if we are going through all that trouble for the survival of every living creature because it is that important, perhaps we should have had enough friggin' lifeboats....

Ahhhhh, the Titanic is truly the same story, different planet.


Yay!!!  i like this idea!

_____________________________

~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 10:04:25 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Tal Trevelyan,

I suspect if we are going through all that trouble for the survival of every living creature because it is that important, perhaps we should have had enough friggin' lifeboats....

Ahhhhh, the Titanic is truly the same story, different planet.


Tal Bull,

You have hit upon the essence of the problem.

Titanic was a British ship.

The British vastly prefer a character-building catastrophe to a smoothly executed success.

A German ship would have had enough lifeboats.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Women and Children First - 1/15/2009 10:45:11 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Tal Trevelyan,

<coughs> Our (German heritage on my Father's side) ship would have been better designed, better equipped and better manned. ;)

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Tal Trevelyan,

I suspect if we are going through all that trouble for the survival of every living creature because it is that important, perhaps we should have had enough friggin' lifeboats....

Ahhhhh, the Titanic is truly the same story, different planet.


Tal Bull,

You have hit upon the essence of the problem.

Titanic was a British ship.

The British vastly prefer a character-building catastrophe to a smoothly executed success.

A German ship would have had enough lifeboats.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan


_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Women and Children First - 1/16/2009 12:21:31 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 7249
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

 
I had a little birdie tell me recently that it is suspected that our evolutionary course is now directed away from ogre like men dominating weaker creatures and that we must accept that or travel the way of the dodo.
 
Well it doesn't matter, I'm sure love will find a way.

Tal Bull,

 
When I was younger and lived on the coast instead of in the middle of a freaking cornfield, I risked life and limb to save my boat once rather than abandon it to the rocks in preference for my safety. I don't understand why substituting the word "slave" in that sentence would make anybody the proponent of a "kinder gentler" Gor (as it has been so frequently dismissively characterized). One of these days maybe I'll ask an ogre to explain that one to me. But for right now, I don't want to irritate somebody who can make beans like you can.
 

 
IWYW,
 
Kirata

 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/16/2009 12:30:28 AM >

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Women and Children First - 1/16/2009 1:58:41 AM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

<coughs> Our (German heritage on my Father's side) ship would have been better designed, better equipped and better manned. ;)

Live well,
Orion


quote:

Gustav Wilhelm Wolff was born on 14 November 1834 in Hamburg to Moritz Wolff, a merchant and his wife, Fanny Schwabe.[1] Gustav was brought up in the Lutheran Church (..)In 1849, aged 15, Wolff left Hamburg to live in Liverpool with his uncle, Gustav Christian Schwabe, a financier.[/link].

quote:


[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Henry_Ismay]Thomas Ismay
, a director of the National Line, purchased the house flag, trade name White Star Line, and goodwill of the bankrupt company for 1,000 pounds sterling on 18 January 1868, with the intention of operating large ships on the North Atlantic service. Ismay established the company's headquarters at the Albion House, Liverpool.



quote:

Over a game of billiards with Gustav Christian Schwabe, a prominent Liverpool merchant, and his nephew, Gustav Wilhelm Wolff, Ismay was told that if he agreed to have his ships built by Wolff's company, Harland and Wolff, Schwabe would agree to finance the new line.[1] Ismay agreed, and a partnership with Harland and Wolff was established. The shipbuilders received their first orders on 30 July 1869. The agreement was that Harland and Wolff would build the ships at cost plus a fixed percentage and would not build any vessels for the White Star's rivals.


The Titanic actually complied with existing regulations, ambition and over confidence if anything led to her eventual loss.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Star_Line
[link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Wilhelm_Wolff#cite_note-Oxford_DNB-0][/link]

< Message edited by Naturallurker -- 1/16/2009 2:00:16 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Women and Children First - 1/16/2009 2:38:36 AM   
LarabysLair


Posts: 156
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline
Tal Trevelyan,

Best answer I've seen yet. Kudos to you!

LL

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Women and Children First - 1/16/2009 6:10:12 AM   
MarcusofAr


Posts: 532
Joined: 3/12/2008
Status: offline
Tal, Bull!

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

I had a little birdie tell me recently that it is suspected that our evolutionary course is now directed away from ogre like men dominating weaker creatures and that we must accept that or travel the way of the dodo.


Naturally the evolutionary course is now being affected by the proliferation of modern technology, large scale inter-population dynamics, sedentary lifestyles, and over-abundant materials and food supplies. Everything we do determines species survival success, and effects the evolutionary genetic pool in the long term.

Since the major changes above have really only been a protean factor against the hunter/gatherer model for the past hundred years or so, and since there isn't too much survival-impetus to engage such alterations (ogres and their genes still survive pretty well in modern society), one might reliably predict that, in another 5 or 6 generations, the collective human gene pool might start to exhibit resulting characteristics directly related to the above factors.

So my great-great-great-great-grandson may be a much more docile creature than I am myself.

Perhaps two hundred years from now someone will write a thesis about it.

None of which alters the fact that we are what we are, today, at this moment.

I tend to concern myself with that, rather than trying to ignore away my present genetic structure and natural biological propensities.

I'm just saying.

I wish you well,

_Marcus_

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Women and Children First - 1/16/2009 6:14:10 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline
Tal All,

Not that it's the Titanic, going down in the Thassa ....or Gorean. I still think this has a small bit of relevence, not in the form of personal philosophy, but simply in a Man trained for adverse situations, plus having the knowledge, skills and presence of character to act accordingly when the shit hits the fan.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090116/ap_on_re_us/plane_in_river_pilot

For some reason it made my day when I heard about him on NPR this morning.

Edit:  An afterthought...Actually it has a lot to do with a man taking his personal Codes very seriously....what could have been a very tragic outcome was avoided simply becasue it appears he did.

Iwyw

Anarrus

< Message edited by Anarrus -- 1/16/2009 6:33:16 AM >


_____________________________

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(in reply to LarabysLair)
Profile   Post #: 160
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