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Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 12:13:11 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Ok, here's a question that I think will challenge us a bit.  One that puts a light on a (seemingly, anyway) stark contradiction between traditional (where we live) definitions of being a "good man" and a Gorean definition.

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version).  She's going down.  There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind.  Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

No rhetorical waffling and side-stepping if you please.  Confront the question head-on.


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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 12:45:11 PM   
opposingtwilight


Posts: 678
Joined: 6/13/2008
Status: offline 		How many of the slaves are love slaves (as compared to slaves of the plain variety) and how many of the free women are stupid, old, ugly, shrewish or just plain unappealing?

It would make sense that the men would want to save only the most desirable women, free or slave.


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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 12:54:15 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

How many of the slaves are love slaves (as compared to slaves of the plain variety) and how many of the free women are stupid, old, ugly, shrewish or just plain unappealing?

It would make sense that the men would want to save only the most desirable women, free or slave.



That gave me a good laugh.  I like you kiddo.  Unfortunately, though, every shrewish, dried up, ugly, or otherwise undesirable free woman would be someone's mother, sister, companion, etc.  Would she not?  Strip all the women and start comparing them based on sexual merit and you would probably end the problem then and there.  Enough men would kill each other over who was or wasn't getting on the boats that there would probably be room for the slaves.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 1:14:51 PM   
AhuvahXimena


Posts: 50
Joined: 1/6/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings Master,

                         A good question if somewhat hard, but then such is life...I would have to say that I would give my place up for another, but then it is still up to the Free Men.


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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 1:35:02 PM   
Camerius


Posts: 644
Joined: 9/5/2006
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Tal,

it would be any female ( be they free or slave ) that are either within the procreation age and/or are pregnant. I think that the first that would come to mind is securing the future of the human species, i.e. any female that would be able to do so would get off the boat and be ( hopefully ) saved by passing ships.

Of cause this would be my own personal take on it, as always.


I wish you well,

  Camerius



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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 2:46:58 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 6595
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Leonidas,

Those that make it would be those that I find value in, whether they are Free or slave, male or female. If not enough spaces still, then those I find the most value in. This would mean that those I know personally and like first, and then all others based upon likability or value to the rest. Not sure what else you are looking for.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Ok, here's a question that I think will challenge us a bit.  One that puts a light on a (seemingly, anyway) stark contradiction between traditional (where we live) definitions of being a "good man" and a Gorean definition.

You're the Captain of the Titanic (the Gorean version).  She's going down.  There are enough lifeboats for all of the free men, and women, but if all of the free men and women are seated, the slaves will be left behind.  Who makes it to safety, and who goes down with the ship?

No rhetorical waffling and side-stepping if you please.  Confront the question head-on.



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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 3:00:22 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1791
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		JMO, the logical thing to do is put the Free in line for the life boats.  This would be based on the assumption (and yes, I'm acutely aware of the hazzards involved with that) that the Free have a higher societal value.  New slaves can be had, so to speak.
 
However, should one of those Free value his or her slave sufficiently to give up their seat because it pleases it to them to do so, then more power to them.  His property, his choice.  Anyone with a gripe should have a fist stuck in it.
 
There is of course, the question of are any of the slaves brain surgeons, or on a par with Sarah Vauhn or Da Vinci.  It would be great if there was some instant litmus test of who's most likely to benefit society in general for use in times of crisis.  In the absense of one, I tend to think that in general, the second best solution is putting the Free on the boat...with the exceptions of those who happen to think their slave is more deserving of life than they are (but that's another thread entirely, perhaps).
 
Now, lest there be an uproar from the p-nut gallery about the views expressed by a Free Woman in this post......
Ugly as hell, lady-of-the-frozen vagina, shrew extrordinaire - or not - I'm Woman enough, I'd hope, to not let the slave currently doing test trials on a drug that looks like the cure for cancer in my lifetime die.  Other than that...oh well.
 
Honestly, I just can't see giving someone not willing to fight for their own freedom, my own.  They wouldn't know what to do with it.
 
Grace

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 3:30:26 PM   
opposingtwilight


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

How many of the slaves are love slaves (as compared to slaves of the plain variety) and how many of the free women are stupid, old, ugly, shrewish or just plain unappealing?

It would make sense that the men would want to save only the most desirable women, free or slave.



That gave me a good laugh.  I like you kiddo.  Unfortunately, though, every shrewish, dried up, ugly, or otherwise undesirable free woman would be someone's mother, sister, companion, etc.  Would she not?  Strip all the women and start comparing them based on sexual merit and you would probably end the problem then and there.  Enough men would kill each other over who was or wasn't getting on the boats that there would probably be room for the slaves.


Family ties are something to consider, this is true. I also thought that with their lives at stake and drowning in ice cold water being a most miserable way to go, there might be some drastic attitude changes going on as the boats were being boarded.




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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 3:41:21 PM   
xBullx


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Status: offline 		-fast reply-

Interesting replies indeed.......... "Grace the Gorean"........... imagine that.

I think it bears reflection that even on our Earthly version of the Titanic social priority existed.

Kajira know their fate, good thing my ishy is a strong swimmer. This isn't a hard question in as so much it leaves us with interesting commentary, right away we here about this "love slave" notion. A Gorean would know that the free are not sacrificed to save a slave, I suspect on a Gorean Titanic there would be a few free men that would stay behind and tempt fate with the wench they loved, but I doubt their honor would compromise the safety of free. There is a chance a few might try and sneak their girl on in the robes of a free woman, but I would suspect that discovery would be harshly judged upon both in this instance. 

So come on people if you are actually applying the Gorean philosophies to your life this is a no brainer. I have said to many girls that if being mastered seems hard and distasteful, perhaps long distance running should become your new hobby, I would also say the same to those that would be "Gorean", if this morality seems hard enough to crack your shell, the yokes on you.

In our present reality often enough we see the man courting a sweet piece of flesh "side step" or dismiss the "supposed" harshness of Gorean ideoligy to win the favor of a potential slut.

I watch "Gorean" "men" compromise themselves here and in other places all the time, this fact alone makes the trips back harder and harder.

Many are those that want to apply the philosophies when it's easy and beneficial, but not so much when they have to actually make a choice that in our culture of birth would be looked upon adversely.

So I suspect what Leonidas is actually posing in this is ( To be or not to be "Gorean"?) That is the question.

I trust this reply was head on enough...

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/11/2009 3:54:26 PM >

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Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 3:51:54 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: opposingtwilight

Family ties are something to consider, this is true. I also thought that with their lives at stake and drowning in ice cold water being a most miserable way to go, there might be some drastic attitude changes going on as the boats were being boarded.



As I mentioned in my previous post, my ishy is a good swimmer and perhaps she might stand a chance of swimming to a piece of debris, climb from the cold murky waters and in turn find her way home or somewhere. I would however consider a quick end for a girl not able to look after herself in such a fashion.

Sure this isn't Gor and we don't have to be so cold and cruel.... Do we? I suspect someone not really aspiring to assimilate a Gorean morality might not understand, or at the very least not want too.

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Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 5:01:15 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 10033
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Leonidas,
Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings Visitors,
Greetings girlies,

I make it to safety.

I will do whatever is necessary to live.  I am very clear on this.  If that would ostracize or banish me, so be it.  But I will LIVE.

well wishes,
*tgfka sunshine 

*edited to add the following:

I wrote the above without sharing the context for it.  I know the context, and without it, it seems harsh.  But it is borne of experience.  In 1989 a man held a gun to my head and was going to kill me.  He told me he was going to kill me, told me I deserved to die.  I got away from that man.    That man was my father. 

I have been ostracized and banished by my sister and my father because I would not allow him to kill me.  

I made peace with the depth of my survival instinct on that day.  I'm afraid that because this question hit so close to home, I did not answer the original question.  I went right to the fight/flight/fright instinct, that is, survival mode.  My apologies for not answering the original question.

well wishes,
*tgfka sunshine

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 1/11/2009 5:54:07 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 5:05:35 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 3170
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Tal Leonidas,

On Gor, the slaves would be abandoned. Many men are extremely fond of their girls, and might choose to afford them a quick death rather than leave them to suffer. A few might even prefer to forgo the lifeboats and try to make it to shore with their property, if the option seemed to have a chance at success. But the protection and safety of the Free Women would come first. So much so, in fact, that it was considered by many sailors on Gor to be bad luck to have a Free Woman on board, because of the inhibiting effect of her presence on the Captain's decisions to maneuver and fight the ship as he otherwise would.
 
So here's another food for thought question for the thread. You're the Captain of the Titanic. She's going down. There are only enough lifeboats for the Free Women. Who makes it to safety and who goes down with the ship?
 
IWYW,

Kirata


< Message edited by Kirata -- 1/11/2009 5:34:48 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 5:14:15 PM   
lighthearted


Posts: 1165
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline 		greetings from a lurker,

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Greetings Master Leonidas,
Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings Visitors,
Greetings girlies,

I make it to safety.

I will do whatever is necessary to live.  I am very clear on this.  If that would ostracize or banish me, so be it.  But I will LIVE.

well wishes,
*tgfka sunshine 


amen!

best,
lh

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 5:20:11 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lighthearted

greetings from a lurker,

quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Greetings Master Leonidas,
Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings Visitors,
Greetings girlies,

I make it to safety.

I will do whatever is necessary to live.  I am very clear on this.  If that would ostracize or banish me, so be it.  But I will LIVE.

well wishes,
*tgfka sunshine 


amen!

best,
lh


Just so you girls have something to ponder....there's a very good chance you would be chained in a kennel below the waterline. That's assuming the Captain were actually a Gorean in this senario. So you wouldn't actually have a choice.

Welcome to the Gorean ideal of slavery.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/11/2009 5:25:15 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 5:36:23 PM   
lighthearted


Posts: 1165
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Status: offline 		hello xBullx
perhaps.  I'm certainly not going to argue the scenario with you.  my point was only to say, if there was a way out to be found, I'd be right next to sunshinemiss, doing everything in my power to find that way.  a point worth pondering as well, not as it applies to me personally, but perhaps to the women in general, free or enslaved.
best,
lh

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 6:53:58 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
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Status: offline 		Well there you have it....an alternate agenda.

How nice.


< Message edited by xBullx -- 1/11/2009 6:57:12 PM >

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Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

(in reply to lighthearted)
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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:07:35 PM   
lighthearted


Posts: 1165
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Status: offline 		if survival instinct is an alternate agenda, then I suppose so.

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:12:54 PM   
sujuguete


Posts: 263
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From: DC metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

Honestly, I just can't see giving someone not willing to fight for their own freedom, my own.  They wouldn't know what to do with it.
 
Grace

Hello Grace,

I'm not sure what fighting for freedom has to do with this scenario.  I thought it was about fighting for life.  Obviously there are slaves who will fight for their lives, if for no other reason than to provide continued service to their Owners.

And I'm also not sure that the blanket statement, "They wouldn't know what to do with it," holds true.  Were not all slaves free at some point in their lives (before becoming slaves)?  Do you think all slaves have forgotten how to be free, or would be incapable of functioning as Free if it were forced upon them?

If I have misunderstood your post, I apologize.

Take care,

juguete

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:13:34 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 6386
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		As property, I would expect to be left behind. Quite honestly, that's a no brainer. Been there, know the experience in real life, minus the boat  I must say, it's an enlightening experience.

mist

edited to add that this was a fast reply to the OP

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 1/11/2009 7:14:15 PM >

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RE: Women and Children First - 1/11/2009 7:25:08 PM   
liltawny1


Posts: 2
Joined: 8/12/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters
Greetings Mistresses
Greetings slaves

i as well would expect to be left behind.

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