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The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 8:53:38 AM   
Leonidas


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Science is catching up.  After 40 years or so, the taboos that strongly discouraged certain lines of inquiry are fading, and much of what is being discovered probably wouldn't surprise a Gorean much. 

Eugene Caruso and his team of researchers at the University of Chicago published an interesting study in the journal Social Cognition recently.  Using a technique called cojoint analysis that they borrowed from market analysts, they set out to see if there was a difference between what people said mattered to them about other people, and what actually mattered. 

They took a control group of both male and female college seniors, and asked them to rank the importance of certain factors when applying for their first job after college.  Then they showed them some fact sheets about potential employers, which included a picture of who they would be working for.  What they discovered would probably be shocking to anyone but a Gorean.  When it came to salary, location, amount of vacation, and other factors, the students stated preferences matched closely with their actual selections.  One thing that didn't match was the sex of who they would be working for.  On average, both male and female subjects were willing to sacrifice 22% of their starting salary to work for a man.  Of course, all of them said when asked that the sex of who they would be working for didn't matter at all.

I don't think it's at all suprising to anyone here that human beings tend to instinctively look to males of their species for leadership.  You can socially engineer people into saying the "right" thing, and maybe even doing the "right" thing, but underneith it all, that isn't really what they want to do.

How about genetic engineering?  We're approaching a time when we may be able to engineer this tendency away.  If everyone agrees that the sex of who you work for "shouldn't" matter, would it be ethical to just "fix it"?

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 1/24/2009 9:24:58 AM >


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Leonidas
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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 9:08:11 AM   
Musicmystery


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Tal Leonidas,

This doesn't fall under "fixing," however, as it's a matter of opinion, not at all like growing a new kidney to replace a damaged one. It's manipulation. I also doubt genetics could, even theoretically, accomplish such mental control. That is, as you've observed, social conditioning, and it works only to the extent that people like simple answers and are inclined to seek patterns, creating stereotypes that ill-reflect the complex realities of the world around them, but allowing an easier world view, even if a fantasy.

Live well,

Tim

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 9:26:21 AM   
Angrylibrarian


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I'm in libraries and archives where the ratio is 60-70% women to men.  I wouldn't have it any other way, (for many reasons!) Besides, I want to lead, doesn't matter who my boss is they need to listen to me or they are idiots.

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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 9:30:32 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I also doubt genetics could, even theoretically, accomplish such mental control.



If it is a genetic predisposition, theoretically, anyway, it could be altered.  Of course, in doing so you might alter sexual attraction too, and end up having to produce babies in baby factories thereafter, but that is a small price to pay for fairness, is it not?


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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 9:31:10 AM   
eponavet


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Female large animal veterinarians make an average of EIGHTY THOUSAND dollars a year LESS than their male colleagues.  I'm sure there are factors such as family constraints and such, but the above study confirms what i live on a daily basis.  At least once a week, i hear from people that they can't believe a 100lb woman can be a large animal vet.  I give the standard reply that it doesn't matter if you weight 100lb or 300lb, it is unlikely that you can outmuscle these animals, you have to re-negotiate with the fractious ones (chemical restraint )...but still, technically, those clients are my employers and yes, it does make a difference.  Besides their perceptions, my natural care giving instinct, as well as probably my submissive nature, result in me giving a lot of animals a lot care that never gets paid for.  Someone has mentioned to me that this is one area that a good Master or FC could actually HELP me maximize my professional career with my earning potential....

< Message edited by eponavet -- 1/24/2009 9:35:23 AM >


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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 9:34:53 AM   
eponavet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet

Female large animal veterinarians make an average of EIGHTY THOUSAND dollars a year LESS than their male colleagues.  I'm sure there are factors such as family constraints and such, but the above study confirms what i live on a daily basis.  At least once a week, i hear from people that they can't believe a 100lb woman can be a large animal vet.  I give the standard reply that it doesn't matter if you weight 100lb or 300lb, it is unlikely that you can outmuscle these animals, you have to re-negotiate with the fractious ones (chemical restraint )...but still, technically, those clients are my employers and yes, it does make a difference.  Besides their perceptions, my natural care giving instinct, as well as probably my submissive nature, result in me giving a lot of animals a lot care that never gets paid for.  Someone has mentioned to me that this is one area that a good Master or FC could actually HELP me maximize my professional career with my earning potential....


misclicked edit post and quoted myself instead...oops!

< Message edited by eponavet -- 1/24/2009 9:35:58 AM >


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~ You are a child of the Universe, no less than the trees and the stars. You have a right to be here, and whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the Universe is unfolding as it should ~


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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 10:21:29 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet
Someone has mentioned to me that this is one area that a good Master or FC could actually HELP me maximize my professional career with my earning potential....


It might, if you choose your master well.  Edana was earning 35K when I collared her, she is earning 95K for me four years later.  Men who truly see their sluts as assets to manage in all respects are not all that common though.  If you find yourself one who does, yes, your professional potential will probably rise.


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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 10:27:43 AM   
hlen5


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Leonidas,

What an interesting thread. I was just wondering if Edana has changed jobs, gathered up the courage to ask for a raise or is still working in the same field of work that she was when she met you? 

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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 10:34:56 AM   
Leonidas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Leonidas,

What an interesting thread. I was just wondering if Edana has changed jobs, gathered up the courage to ask for a raise or is still working in the same field of work that she was when she met you? 


She is still working in the same field, though in a more responsible position.  I have changed her employer twice, and set her salary expectations when salary was to be negotiated.  On her own, she probably wouldn't have had the inclination to do either, or stick to her guns when she was offered less than she was worth.  Sticking to a number that your master set is probably a lot easier for a girl.




_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/24/2009 11:39:34 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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To add to this, having a Master that determines things for you makes things easier as well. My girl, due to her nature, is easily taken advantage of to work more than she is scheduled or work different days than she submits. I put my foot down about that, and she enjoys her job more. There are other things as well, that she had a difficult time being form about, but with my instructions she is much happier in what she does now, and she makes more money with less days worked.

To the OP, yeah it is not surprising at all. As a Business consultant, when I go into a client where the person in charge is female, they defer to my suggestion much easier than with a male client.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Leonidas,

What an interesting thread. I was just wondering if Edana has changed jobs, gathered up the courage to ask for a raise or is still working in the same field of work that she was when she met you? 


She is still working in the same field, though in a more responsible position.  I have changed her employer twice, and set her salary expectations when salary was to be negotiated.  On her own, she probably wouldn't have had the inclination to do either, or stick to her guns when she was offered less than she was worth.  Sticking to a number that your master set is probably a lot easier for a girl.





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Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/25/2009 1:57:31 AM   
FrankAr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas


She is still working in the same field, though in a more responsible position.  I have changed her employer twice, and set her salary expectations when salary was to be negotiated.  On her own, she probably wouldn't have had the inclination to do either, or stick to her guns when she was offered less than she was worth.  Sticking to a number that your master set is probably a lot easier for a girl.





Tal Leonidas,

I was wondering something and was going to bring it up in another post that you mentioned about yourself and edana, also Orion if you want to also chime in instead of me writing it twice.

Does the Gorean ethos and principles given through the books make it easier for you as the owner/master to manage the life of your slave ? I mean has it helped more than if you did not read the books ? For both of you men have read the books and outside the circle of literature in more ways than one.

In my opinion the Gor teaching has lead me to a better developement in my leadership of a household, whether it be with a slave or my um. I have a goal, set it, get there and then beat it. This has been bought out from my readings of the Gor series. Even though some of my humour has been lost in writing posts, but will not go there....just laughs. I am just thinking that Leonidas and Orion, Bull, Tim, Thadius, Marcus, Brule, Malkinius, have all shown me that by reading the series, and not just once, that my leadership capabilities can be forthcoming in more ways than one.

That is why I am asking if by reading the series you men have been able to lead the household in better ways, like employment contracts and job prospects, than just by not reading the Gor series ?

Be well.

Frank Ar.

PS. I would find it more easier to be led by a male counterpart than a female, for a major reason. My jobs have been physical in nature and not many women can be able to do them. There are jobs that should only be given to males, however some desk jobs are more suited for females.



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Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/25/2009 7:31:15 AM   
Leonidas


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Tal Frank!

quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankAr


Tal Leonidas,

I was wondering something and was going to bring it up in another post that you mentioned about yourself and edana, also Orion if you want to also chime in instead of me writing it twice.

Does the Gorean ethos and principles given through the books make it easier for you as the owner/master to manage the life of your slave ? I mean has it helped more than if you did not read the books ? For both of you men have read the books and outside the circle of literature in more ways than one.


I had to laugh a little here.  Why yes, reading the Gor books has made me a much better slave owner than any of my neighbors.  Their slaves don't do nearly as well as mine.  Kidding aside, yes, I think that internalizing and adopting Gorean morality as my own makes that much easier.  It would be very difficult, I think, for a man who still clings to modern, western morality to manage slave ownership.  It is very hard to do something consistantly if you conflicted about it, or aren't wholly convinced of the rightness of it.

quote:

In my opinion the Gor teaching has lead me to a better developement in my leadership of a household, whether it be with a slave or my um. I have a goal, set it, get there and then beat it. This has been bought out from my readings of the Gor series. Even though some of my humour has been lost in writing posts, but will not go there....just laughs. I am just thinking that Leonidas and Orion, Bull, Tim, Thadius, Marcus, Brule, Malkinius, have all shown me that by reading the series, and not just once, that my leadership capabilities can be forthcoming in more ways than one.


Funny how accepting that you are the sovereign within your own walls will do that for a man, is it not?  What holds most men back isn't so much their lack in innate leadership ability (though some men surely are lacking), it's that they have been conditioned to be uncomfortable wearing the mantle of leadership, so they question themselves, and allow others to challenge them, more than they should, often to the detriment of the entire household.

quote:

That is why I am asking if by reading the series you men have been able to lead the household in better ways, like employment contracts and job prospects, than just by not reading the Gor series ?


For me, that is fairly easy to answer.  I get paid to be a dominant man, pretty much, though I'm sure my clients would be chagrined to think about it that way.  I get organizations to do things that they haven't been able to do on their own, and they pay me a lot to do so.

quote:

PS. I would find it more easier to be led by a male counterpart than a female, for a major reason. My jobs have been physical in nature and not many women can be able to do them. There are jobs that should only be given to males, however some desk jobs are more suited for females.


When edana read this post she recalled a time before she met me when she was transferred and went from working for a man to working for a woman.  She said she feld "vaguely dismayed", but couldn't really put her finger on why.  I agree that women do some jobs very well.  They often make fine managers too.  How having them as managers impacts the job satisfaction of those working for them isn't something that has been measured, and I would dare say isn't likely to be any time soon.

I wish you well.


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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: The Engineered Human - 1/25/2009 9:11:04 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Tal Frank,

Leonidas put it pretty well, but the difference is that he is further along in unlearning certain conditioned "moralities" than I am. What the series has assisted me in, is recognizing some of the things I already had a problem with. Some of the discussions on here have also helped with that as well.

Live well,
Orion




_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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