Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account		 As the Collar Turns:
 Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

All women are slaves


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> All women are slaves Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 1:26:50 PM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline 		Or are they...

The statement:
All women are slaves

I’ve had this discussion now with many people. The argument seems to be at the core of many slave girls belief systems. In fact it is strongest among girls who self identify as having slaves instincts. When challenged on the matter almost all girls I’ve discussed this with become defensive in some way. Almost all insist that it is true even when they are confronted with the fact it is un-provable and even easily disproved.

“all women are slaves” comes in several varieties.

There’s the all women are slaves but they don’t know it because men are castrated and don’t show them. There’s All women are slaves at heart period . There is all women are slaves but modern society wont let them be, feminism rules over us all and ruins it. All women are slaves they just haven’t met the right guy or been in the right circumstance or they are just dormant etc. etc.

The problem with the “all women are slaves” argument is two fold. First. It’s easily disproved using fairly obvious means while there is almost zero evidence that it is true.* Second, it is an argument that frankly, makes those that say it sound more like mystics and gurus then objective observers and degrades the unique qualities of the individuals who are Masters and slaves.

It is also categorically not observably true nor is it measurable to what degree all women are slaves. Yet another problem begins when it’s accepted as a dogmatic idea that defines what “Goreans” are. If as some would say it is “Gorean” to believe all women are or can be enslaved to some degree. Then we must confront the notion that Goreans base their lives on an easily disproved faith in instincts. If on the other hand it is merely a romantic idea to explain metaphorically the connection that exists between owner and slave. Then its part of a mythology and doesn’t have to be true to be examined.

What makes something true? What are our facts that all women are slaves at heart?**

Well we have our own lovely crop of talented kajira for starters. But then we have an equally talented number of free women who insist that they may “submit” on some level to one man or another but who wouldn’t identify with slave instincts.

And then we have the externally observable world where women who would never identify experience or acknowledge any such instincts are abundant. The answer I get about these women varies along the lines of “they just don’t know yet”

These aren’t good defenses. If you went to work every day with the faith that gasoline explodes in contact with spark yet it hardly ever did you’d stop believing it.

One idea I have heard is that women are free because men allow them to be. Yet anthropologists dispute this. In the rain forests to this day there are matriarchal societies. Native American societies where women were subservient to men as a rule are rare. (many native American cultures in fact defined 5 genders) And there is now speculation that through out the Cromagnum period there is no reason to believe that women did not participate in the hunts of mammoths. In Australia to this day all female and all male groups hunt separately with no evidence that Males are dominant in their society as a rule. For instance, according to Kirkness (1987), many Aboriginal languages did not distinguish between ‘he’ and ‘she’, both being the same to the extent that they were equal. Women were both highly regarded and occupied positions of authority in civil and spiritual affairs.

When we try to argue the validity of the statement “All women are slaves” we find that each person arguing it has a different definition of what that means or how it might be made to be true. This puts the argument squarely in the realm of opinion based on individual hopes and rationalizations. It “means” something to us because of our own relation to the statement. As such it must be accepted as mythological, a symbolic metaphor used to describe the tenuous and rare possibility. Observable evidence suggests instead that individuals determine their own relation to slavery submission or dominance and that when those individuals connect it is that connection that makes it true in that circumstance for those rare few individuals.

Further, it is intellectual folly to describe a metaphor as fact. If the statement “all women are slaves” can only be applied to the reaction between some men and some women then it most certainly is not observable fact. To believe in the statement “all women are slaves” simply because it ‘feels” like it to the believer ought to be understood for what it is; a metaphorical or allegorical description of the believers view on his or her own reality. To claim it is other wise is to take myth beyond it’s symbolism and ascribe it to the real. As if we really mean “don’t open pandora’s box”

So in hopes that we will find some observable evidence to defend the statement perhaps people could answer this.

What is YOUR evidence that all women are slaves outside of your own relationships?

In addition I’d like to wonder why it is uncommon to hear Goreans say “some women respond as slaves to some men, but it’s rare.” Why is this unacceptable to Goreans? Even in the novels Norman used the statement “All women are slaves” as a sort of traditional saying much as someone on earth might say “all roads lead to rome” meaning the same goal may be reached by different means. Or more aptly “like father like son” meaning that people are alike in many ways. (yet not attempting to imply literally that the father is just like the son always!)Why take it literally?


*(example, most women don’t want to submit to any man and prefer to run their own lives seeking an equal partner. This is observable reality.)
** (When challenged on this concept people generally begin redefining what it means that all women are slaves. :”slaves at heart” being another saying we use to describe a rather broad set of behaviors. This is a number one red flag that something is not right about the concept)
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 2:49:37 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		All women are adapted for slavery. If they don't end up under the domination of men (even today) that means that they were born in a part of the world where men have agreed (among themselves) not to treat their women that way. Period. Thems the facts, my blue robed friend. Yes, the hechi-geechi tribe in the amazon (all 35 of them) might be a counter-example that proves the rule, but true female-dominant societies are the rare exception in the history of the world (so much so as to be numerically insignificant), and you know it.

In other words, women have been adapted to survive as slaves through long eons of being taken as slaves by men from each other. They are not adapted, ultimately, to contend for dominance with men. Men are exactly adapted to contend for dominance with each other to assert hedgemony over (you guessed it) women. Women have always been the objects of conquest, and still are, if only in the guilty fantasies of men who now "know better" and their own guilty fantasies of rape, sexual submission and exploitation at the hands of men.

None of this matters in the cushy American environs in which you find yourself. You aren't likely to come down here and try to kick my ass and take my women. But, read the Illiad. Agamemnon and Achillies had a city to sack, and destinys to fulfill. What did they argue about for half the damn poem? Who got to keep the choice slave girl. It was a question intrinsic to their manhood in a way that men had not forgotten in the time of Homer. It was that way for the countless eons of our development as a species. Your reality is a very very recent development in the history of our species.

We don't live in those brutal times when men took what they could by their might and will (including, and especially women), but the imprint of those times still remains an intrinsic part of what we are. I take a slave because I choose to recollect that part of being a man. She kneels and begs a collar becuase she recollects that part of being a woman. It calls to us from those days past, and we listen. Not everybody does. Not everybody has to. Many, I dare say, would be happier and lead healthier lives if they did.

All women are slaves. Not all women are required to be by men anymore. Some women need to be anyway, even though it is no longer required by men at large. Hows that?





< Message edited by Leonidas -- 1/10/2006 3:23:01 PM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 3:20:40 PM   
MasterFerdinand


Posts: 59
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Hell, or Texas...whichever...
Status: offline 		Tal, and greetings:

Ah the foul wind of Pseudo-Intelligentsia blows through our realm,
someone has been talking with his liberal-arts professoress.

Good answer there, Leonidas. However, I think you may be beating your head against the metaphorical Brick Wall in this instance.

_____________________________

Everyone seems normal, until you get to know them

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 3:33:30 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Good answer there, Leonidas. However, I think you may be beating your head against the metaphorical Brick Wall in this instance.


He's actually a friend of mine, Ferdinand. Sad part is the bastard is going to come to my place week after next and drink all of my beer while he tries to convince me of the merits of his argument, I'm sure.

Seriously though, I can assure you that he's not just here to pick a fight. He just likes to pose challenging questions or take a position as a springboard to examining "those truths that we hold to be self-evident". In other words, the fucker likes to argue until your face is as blue as his robes.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to MasterFerdinand)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 4:04:00 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline 		Are all females slaves?

Certainly not.

Do they have the potential to be, under the right circumstances? Yes. Any human has this potential.

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 4:19:45 PM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline 		No Im not arguing for the sake of arguing. I hate stupid generalisations and this is one of them. Neither of you has offered one shred of evidence to support the massive generalisation that all women are slaves or in Leonidas words adapted for slavery (which is odd considering males were enslaved in generous proportions during the times your mentioning, gonna have to dig at that one.) and the other one is just flapping his fingers. "ohh look a smart person better say something snarky and run off"

Looking into your contention that women are "adapted to slavery"

Also you put too much emphasis on men trying to dominate each other for women. That was rarely the reason men struggle. Primarily in the cromagnum period men struggle over game and territory. And the Illiad as evidence? come on. Might as well say that all men love their boy proteges.

As for the rest well , when we agree we agree.

quote:

All women are slaves. Not all women are required to be by men anymore. Some women need to be anyway, even though it is no longer required by men at large. Hows that?


hmm so all women are slaves cause they are. period. (chuckles) but now they dont have to be. And piss on all aboriginal or ancient history that says other wise. gotcha.

And I'm bringing my own beer! and the wine dammit. But seriously I promised myself I wouldnt refute anyones evidence on this matter but since your a great man I might add that penelope turned them into pigs in the Iliad and they all fell for sirens. And isnt agamemnon the one where all the women vow never to have sex until their men do what they want? What I'm looking for is the actual historical evidence that props up this idea that women are adapted to slavery .

The interesting thing about this answer before I just leave it to see if anyone has any evidence or just claims it's true, (thanks sirdark, see below.) is that the answers from slave girls are massively different then yours. Not surprisingly they are focused on the internal and emotional and dont make a claim that women are born property.

*M. I. Finely, Ancient Slavery and Modern Ideology (Viking, 1989)

*Yvon Garlan, Slavery in Ancient Greece (Cornell University Press, 1988)

*Garnsey, Peter, Ideas of Slavery from Aristotle to Augustine (Cambridge U.P., 1996)

*Thomas Weidemann, Greek and Roman Slavery (Johns Hopkins, 1981)

*Eva Cantarella, Pandora's Daughters (Johns Hopkins, 1981)

*Elaine Fantham, ed., Women in the Classical World (Oxford University Press, 1994)

*Mary Lefkowitz and Maureen Fant, Women's Life in Greece and Rome (Johns Hopkins, 1982)

*Sarah Pomeroy, Goddesses, Whores, Wives, and Slaves (Schocken, 1976)

*Sarah Pomeroy, ed., Women's History and Ancient History (Univ. of North Carolina Press, 1991



< Message edited by Angrylibrarian -- 1/10/2006 5:09:51 PM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 4:32:32 PM   
SirDarkside357


Posts: 393
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline 		Wow, lots of big words, made my head hurt. WEG I don't agree with you Mr. Librarian, but I will defend your right to be wrong. LOL I never try to convience folk to agree with me, I believe what I believe and that's that, agree with me or not, I'm not changeing, you probably aren't either. As in most things, what is true in my life, may not be true in yours. But I haven't met her yet.

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 4:33:19 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Are all females slaves?

Certainly not.

Do they have the potential to be, under the right circumstances? Yes. Any human has this potential.


The Roman's had a pragmatic approach. One could chose to be a slave or die. Which you chose didn't particularly bother them and supplying the option saved quality control problems down the line.


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to amayos)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 5:10:04 PM   
wolffeathers


Posts: 315
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Clearwater
Status: offline 		I'm just going to comment on two things.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian

*(example, most women don’t want to submit to any man and prefer to run their own lives seeking an equal partner. This is observable reality.)


See prefeminist movement ANYWHERE. Before the feminist movement, all a woman thought about was "I need a good husband, who can support me, and who I will cook, and clean for". How is that differnt from slavery, but with a differnt name?

quote:


** (When challenged on this concept people generally begin redefining what it means that all women are slaves. :”slaves at heart” being another saying we use to describe a rather broad set of behaviors. This is a number one red flag that something is not right about the concept)


There is the reason we say "slaves at heart". People have gotten to the point that calling anyone slave is bad, no matter if it's in the bedroom or in the streets.

Now, are there those that have the hearts of free women? Yes. However, from the women I have spoke to (Gor, M/s, BDSM, vanilla), it seems most will serve a man, if the right man comes forth. There are some that say no (Fem Doms, Feminazis), but, even them, I have the feeling will kneel for a Master, if the right one comes to them.

_____________________________

It's my way or the highway. Just happens that the highway is on my way.

~Master Wolf

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 5:45:55 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

No Im not arguing for the sake of arguing. I hate stupid generalisations and this is one of them. Neither of you has offered one shred of evidence to support the massive generalisation that all women are slaves or in Leonidas words adapted for slavery (which is odd considering males were enslaved in generous proportions during the times your mentioning, gonna have to dig at that one.)


OK, lets dig into it. Can you say with a straight face that women are adapted to contend for territory and resources with men? To ask the question a different way, if men woke up tomorrow morning and decided that all the rights and freedoms that they have granted to women in the last century were a bad idea, and it was time to subjugate them again, could they pull it off? Would there be anything that women could do to stop them? Now, how about the converse? If women decided that men being in charge was a bad idea, showed up on your block and told all the men that they were now their subjects, could they make it stick? No, my friend, they would have no prayer. They aren't adapted to subjugate men. Men are, however, adapted to subjugate them. I know it makes you crazy to consider the ultimate question of who could and couldn't assert dominance (you consider yourself too enlightened to accept that you also have a savage nature), but it is relevant to the question at hand. Women are adapted to be subjugated. Men are adapted to subjugate them. You might not like it, but it's true. That we choose not to is just that; a choice. So, yes, I'll say it again. Women are adapted to slavery. More accurately, they are adapted to live under the rule and control of men. Slavery is a more modern term that is just an approximation for something that's been going on for far longer.

quote:

Also you put too much emphasis on men trying to dominate each other for women. That was rarely the reason men struggle. Primarily in the cromagnum period men struggle over game and territory.


You're tossing Darwin out the window here. If you accept that reproductive success is what shaped us then it's *all* about getting women and who gets them. If you accept that there are are varying strategies for same, then dominance, subjugation, and and asserting control over said women is obviously what it's all about strategy wise for the vast majority of human males in the history of mankind that we know about. Yes, there are exceptions, but they are just that; exceptions. Othewise we'd have evolved to be like hyenas; smaller, planer versions of the female of our species that exhibit submissive behavior in order to garner favor with said females to have a shot a reproducing. Yes, I'm talking about the dominant strategy now. I don't discount that there are competing strategies that favor the wussy male who hangs back at the camp to beg some nookie while the other men go off to hunt or fight. It is the strategy that shaped us. When deb can kick your ass and rape you as she pleases, I might conceed that you have a point, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

You said above that there is no reason to believe that women didn't hunt the mammoth with men. That's a bit of intellectual slight of hand, I'm afraid, my friend. Yes, the fact is we can't say for sure what went on, so, if you're trying to stake a feminist position you can say "we don't know" or to make it sound better "we have no reason to believe they didn't". All I can offer as evidence is that the average man can run faster, hit harder, and is naturally more prone to do so, not to mention that he is physically designed to sustain more trama. All of these facts suggest strongly that as we developed as a species, men were specialized to undertake things (like the hunt) that required those attributes for success. Your statement is kind of like someone 10,000 years from now that there is "no reason to belive" that women didn't engage in professional boxing with men during our time because they can find no written record or archaeological artifact that proves otherwise. Well, yeah, but.... we can probably guess relatively safely just based on the evidence that is staring us in the face daily.

quote:

hmm so all women are slaves cause they are. period. (chuckles) but now they dont have to be. And piss on all aboriginal or ancient history that says other wise. gotcha.


All women are adapted to be subjugated (slaves) because the only thing keeping them free is the agreement of men that they should be. You can't say the reverse. Can you? All male hyenas are adapted to be subjugated. They live under the domination of the bigger, stronger females of their species. They evolved differently. We aren't male hyenas. We are human males. We are adapted to subjugate the female of our species if we choose to do so. That we choose not to is just that; a choice. Unlike the big, strong, agressive female hyena, the smaller, softer, weaker female of our species is adapted to be subjugated. The vast majority of women who have ever lived have been. That a woman isn't subjugated is, again, a choice that is made by the males around her.

So yes, all women are adapted for slavery. You may be proud, and justifyably so, that you and the other menbers of your sex choose not to make them so, but it is a choice that you, not they, are making.

All of this only has to do with how I live in that I and others like me think of dominance and submission as natural, evolved human drives that traceable to the evolutionary forces that shaped us. We don't have any problem seeing dominance as the natural province of the bigger, stronger, more agressive male of our species, and submission as the natural province of the smaller, weaker, gentler female. That isn't to say that one sex is superior. We are just adapted for different roles, sexually and otherwise. That is what we are. Can we talk ourselves into being something else? Absolutely. We humans have the interesting ability to talk ourselves into just about any kind of behavior, and have, again and again.



< Message edited by Leonidas -- 1/10/2006 5:47:54 PM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 5:55:43 PM   
amayos


Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

Are all females slaves?

Certainly not.

Do they have the potential to be, under the right circumstances? Yes. Any human has this potential.


The Roman's had a pragmatic approach. One could chose to be a slave or die. Which you chose didn't particularly bother them and supplying the option saved quality control problems down the line.



I've said it before and I'll say it again: God, I love the Romans.

< Message edited by amayos -- 1/10/2006 5:56:04 PM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 6:14:59 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas


OK, lets dig into it. Can you say with a straight face that women are adapted to contend for territory and resources with men?


In *this * day and age in America? Yes.

quote:


To ask the question a different way, if men woke up tomorrow morning and decided that all the rights and freedoms that they have granted to women in the last century were a bad idea, and it was time to subjugate them again, could they pull it off? Would there be anything that women could do to stop them?


Legally sure they could decide to pass laws, since there are more men in the Congress and Senate than women (as well as a man in the White House). It wouldn’t be terribly different than:

- When whites decided that it was economically advantageous to enslave blacks (from roughly the 17th-19th century).
- When whites decided to economically as well as socially disempower native Americans/Indians
- Ethnic cleansing in Rwanda (though technically they were of the same ethnicity, just tribes that were artificially created by the Belgians while they were in colonialization mode).
- The disenfranchisement and ethnic cleansing of Jews in the earlier part of the 20th century in much of Europe.
- I could go on and on about various “ethnic cleansing” and disenfranchisement (politically as well as economically) movements that have happened over the centuries…

My point is that sure a group can decide that they want to disempower, disenfranchise, enslave, or even cleanse out another group. I don’t think that’s the mark of one group being inherently dominant over the other (unless you are saying that in these cases the groups that did it successfully are dominant by some genetic luck of the draw).

quote:


Now, how about the converse? If women decided that men being in charge was a bad idea, showed up on your block and told all the men that they were now their subjects, could they make it stick?


Depends on how they went about it. Certainly groups have done it to other groups in the past. Chances are it’ll continue in the future. Again I don’t think it’s the mark of an inherent dominance over another.


quote:


No, my friend, they would have no prayer. They aren't adapted to subjugate men. Men are, however, adapted to subjugate them. I know it makes you crazy to consider the ultimate question of who could and couldn't assert dominance (you consider yourself too enlightened to accept that you also have a savage nature), but it is relevant to the question at hand. Women are adapted to be subjugated. Men are adapted to subjugate them. You might not like it, but it's true.


Saying it over and over doesn’t make it true.

What I suspect Librarian is asking for and I’d love to hear is some actual proof (genetic markers, *solid * studies, etc) that women are inherently and biologically meant and adapted to be subjugated.

quote:


All I can offer as evidence is that the average man can run faster, hit harder, and is naturally more prone to do so, not to mention that he is physically designed to sustain more trama. All of these facts suggest strongly that as we developed as a species, men were specialized to undertake things (like the hunt) that required those attributes for success. Your statement is kind of like someone 10,000 years from now that there is "no reason to belive" that women didn't engage in professional boxing with men during our time because they can find no written record or archaeological artifact that proves otherwise. Well, yeah, but.... we can probably guess relatively safely just based on the evidence that is staring us in the face daily.


The ability to run fast and hit harder does not equal dominance. That’s the leap that you keep making without any proof. The ability to run fast and hit harder simply means that … that the average guy can run faster than the average woman.

There are differences between genders and racial groups. The problem is when differences somehow equal dominance or superiority.

quote:


All women are adapted to be subjugated (slaves) because the only thing keeping them free is the agreement of men that they should be. You can't say the reverse. Can you?


If you are talking about in America then the same thing is true for blacks. Truly it was basically a bunch of (older) white men originally (and to a large part even today) making decisions about everyone else.

Obviously, that doesn’t mean that old white guys are inherently dominant.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 6:17:24 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers

See prefeminist movement ANYWHERE. Before the feminist movement, all a woman thought about was "I need a good husband, who can support me, and who I will cook, and clean for". How is that differnt from slavery, but with a differnt name?



Thats awfully insulting to women leaders that did exist prior to the feminist movement in America (historically under monarchies there were women rulers as well as spiritual leaders).

Also, finding a man to take care of you, to me isn't remotely slavery. Thats a gold digger.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to wolffeathers)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 7:04:34 PM   
fyreredsub


Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline 		this girl can't speak for all women but she knows her heart.
however, it did take a stong Master to make her realize she was indeed a slave.
all her life,she was taught to believe that the man should lead, however life experience tended to deny her that.
she had to take charge and lead the family, not only in reproductive ways,lol, but in bringing home the bacon and frying it up in the pan.
she resented that she had to be in charge and in control.she was unfulfilled and unhappy.
so she comes to the stage in life where she is mastered and she fought it,why because her life experience said ,no this isnt happening,your a take charge kind of girl,,you cant trust another to take good care of you.
she tried to fight her Master and her belly and what rules society changed on her while all the while her collective unconcious screamed at her, kneel, yes, this is how it should be,this is the right thing....
so modern society tries to rob me of this rightful way for me,yet i still strive to learn, i still yearn to kneel and serve, and i have made peace with that and i am comfortable and no one shall rob me of it again.
so, no, there is no empirical evidence, just my heart and mind and belly and that Sir is good enough for this girl.

she doubts that it helps the arguement any,she just knows how she feels

perhaps some one could come up with a quantitative/qualitiative study of some sort of self-assessment and find the mean,or average, or median, on how many woman truly wish they could live this way and feel in their heart they are truly a slave or given the right circumstance or Master that they too would kneel and serve.

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 7:31:33 PM   
wolffeathers


Posts: 315
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Clearwater
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers

See prefeminist movement ANYWHERE. Before the feminist movement, all a woman thought about was "I need a good husband, who can support me, and who I will cook, and clean for". How is that differnt from slavery, but with a differnt name?



Thats awfully insulting to women leaders that did exist prior to the feminist movement in America (historically under monarchies there were women rulers as well as spiritual leaders).

Also, finding a man to take care of you, to me isn't remotely slavery. Thats a gold digger.

C~


And with whom was the army comprised of? Men, I think.

Without that strength, they would not be able to dominate.

There is a reason that women, oh so equal, do not fight on the front lines.

They are not strong enough.

And, my friend, in this world, the strong rule.

If the strong deside to follow a woman, so be it.

_____________________________

It's my way or the highway. Just happens that the highway is on my way.

~Master Wolf

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 7:34:32 PM   
Duste


Posts: 10
Status: offline 		There are some really wonderful sociology books out there, all conservative mind you, that point to pornography as being the definitive slavery of all women (and BDSM doubly so).

However, most of them fail to take into acount not only that most women are being given the power by men, or by other women, but that it's all consentual. Her choice.

Now how could a slave ever really have that?

_____________________________

Whipping, beating, slapping, paddling, pinching, screwing, being screwed, sucking, eating, licking, blowing, submitting, dominating, wild whoring, poking, proding, swinging, hanging, sense inhibiting and total obedience to anything with a sex drive.

(in reply to wolffeathers)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 7:50:36 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers

See prefeminist movement ANYWHERE. Before the feminist movement, all a woman thought about was "I need a good husband, who can support me, and who I will cook, and clean for". How is that differnt from slavery, but with a differnt name?



Thats awfully insulting to women leaders that did exist prior to the feminist movement in America (historically under monarchies there were women rulers as well as spiritual leaders).

Also, finding a man to take care of you, to me isn't remotely slavery. Thats a gold digger.

C~


And with whom was the army comprised of? Men, I think.

Without that strength, they would not be able to dominate.

There is a reason that women, oh so equal, do not fight on the front lines.

They are not strong enough.

And, my friend, in this world, the strong rule.

If the strong deside to follow a woman, so be it.


Okay this has absolutely nothing to do with what you originally said (which I'm leaving up here, just in case you forgot). Perhaps to you its not insulting to say that in the pre-feminist era all women thought about was finding a man to take care of them. Personally I think women are a tad more complex than that, even ones on boards such as this who may identify as slave.

If you want to talk about the composition of the army thats a different discussion, but you seem to have ignored my original response and gone off on another tangent.

C~

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to wolffeathers)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 10:50:18 PM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Duste

However, most of them fail to take into acount not only that most women are being given the power by men, or by other women, but that it's all consentual. Her choice.

Now how could a slave ever really have that?


By definition, one does not need to be taken either by force or by legal means to be a slave. It doesn't have to be non consensual in order to be considered slavery.

A slave can be (by correct definition) simply a person who is abjectly subservient to another person.

Well wishes,

Cav's ally


(in reply to Duste)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 11:07:12 PM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline 		I believe that when you look at the purely physical, then yes - women are made in such a way that they are easily physically subjugated by the male. They are usually weaker in strength. They were engineered as the one who is penetrated - the one who receives.

I believe, however, that when you look at the purely psychological, that while perhaps most women may fantasize about being subjugated and they may even poke at it from time to time in the bedroom, that there aren't very many women who truly desire to be slaves, regardless of how strong and manly their partner is.

The statement that "all women are slaves, they just haven't met the right man yet" is one I've heard time and time again.

On a purely consensual level, I believe that when faced with the right man, a woman can be inspired to behave submissively but I do not believe that all women have the desire to surrender absolutely. In fact, I believe that most women would prefer that they retain their own right to choose. I think that it is the rare woman who (when in the presence of the right man) desires to become wholly and completely enslaved.

I know many women who would not flourish or blossom under the yoke of enslavement. They're just not wired that way. Now if their very life depended on it, or if the lives of their offspring depended on it then sure! Most would submit in a heartbeat. But that isn't because they want to be a slave, it would simply be a case of self-preservation and/or the survival of their offspring.

Just my two pesos. *grins*

Well wishes,

Cav's ally







< Message edited by allyC -- 1/10/2006 11:09:16 PM >

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: All women are slaves - 1/10/2006 11:38:58 PM   
millisande


Posts: 182
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

quote:

ORIGINAL: wolffeathers

See prefeminist movement ANYWHERE. Before the feminist movement, all a woman thought about was "I need a good husband, who can support me, and who I will cook, and clean for". How is that differnt from slavery, but with a differnt name?



Thats awfully insulting to women leaders that did exist prior to the feminist movement in America (historically under monarchies there were women rulers as well as spiritual leaders).


that they led is simply a result of the fact that the males around them allowed them to do so.
no more
no less
a girl does not find what Master Wolf said insulting... instead, those women who were allowed to lead ought to feel honored that they were accorded such a position

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs
Also, finding a man to take care of you, to me isn't remotely slavery. Thats a gold digger.

C~


this girl's bigest dream is that one day, the One she serves and loves will be able to care for her completely, that she might spend the rest of her days serving him and raising a family.
this makes her a gold-digger?
then so be it...
Master Wolf... will you have a girl, even though, despite all that you have been through with her, she wishes nothing from you but your money??(ROFLMAO)

respectfully,
adrianne

_____________________________

[img]http://www.swampreclamation.org/forum/images/avatars/gallery/home%20made/camelback-mountain.jpg[/img]

(in reply to Wildfleurs)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> All women are slaves Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.281