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RE: FC always lasts at lease a year?


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RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/2/2009 9:47:42 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Evening, Grace,

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace
Got any thoughts on why he put so few examples of excellent FW in the series?

 
Likely the same reason he put so few examples of any particularly exemplary sort of person (Free or slave, male or female) in the series -- only a few archetypes are needed to illustrate the 'moral to the story' threading throughout.

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace
*Grin* there's a lot that can't be found on CM, LOL.  I've only seen one particular piece from Norman commenting on Living Gorean. {...} I'll go read it again, and see if it feels any different the third time around.  I'll also look for anything more recent he's said on the subject.


If you have any trouble finding it all, you DO have other resources you could call upon....that is, IF you trust them...

Safe travels,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 9:54:57 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		FR -

I'm going to take a final stab at this.  Based upon reactions to my previous postings in this thread, it is obvious that I failed to clearly convey my thoughts.
1.  I honestly do not see how anyone could read the Gor series and come away thinking that an FC and a slave are the same thing.
2.  As per Kim's comments (point taken) I've reread what I'd previously seen of what Norman has said about living Gorean.  I'm also reading everything else - interviews, letters, so forth - by him that I can dig up.
3.  Dissing the man wasn't my intention.
4.  I stand by my comment that his personal views are pretty much irrelevent to my personal choices of whether or not to live Gorean philosophy as presented in the books, or to how I elect to implement the details - or not.
 
Why do I feel that way?  It is essentially about truth, and filters.
 
The search for philosophical truth and the subsequent living of it are individual journeys.  While the reading of other writings by the founding fathers of the US, for example, offers background, paradigm, and filter through which such documents as the Constitution or the Bill of Rights may be viewed, they do not alter the actual words on the page.  The personal perspective of a clergyman does not alter the specifics of what is in writing in the Qur'an, Bible, Book of Mormon, or whatever.  They may be considered, used as filters, or provide alternate paradigm or background.  In the end, the individual seeking truth must look to whatever person or document they have decided constitutes their plumb line or yard stick.

Imaginative sex is a work of non-fiction.  That could well lead one to conclude that Norman expresses more of his personal views within it than in his works of fiction.  He is also on record, and it has been duely noted by others besides him, that the Gor series is fonded upon a foundation of philosophy, sociology, and psychology, the principles of which have been around far longer than Norman's writings.  Thus far, I have not seem him come out and make clear and unequivocable statements about his personal views regarding the various nitty gritty of Gorean philosophy.  That is not to say he hasn't said anything at all about them, just that he hasn't drawn his personal line in the sand clearly and publically for all the world to see....that I've seen, at any rate.
 
At best, his comments and writings outside the Gor series, for me, get filed along with the stated views of Kim, Liz, Bull, Leonidas, Kirata, Orion, Nietzsche, or anyone else........they are paradigms for me to look from, as I examine Gorean philosophy.  They are filters for me to pick up, look through, hold or discard.
 
One of the greatest challenges in life's journey,  for one who truly desires to know their authentic self, the world and people around them, is to deliberately look at something from all directions, to look through many filters, and to make desicions about which to hold credible, which to carry on the journey, and which to discard.
 
I don't see how anyone can look at the books, examine the world around them, and conclude that all women belong in collars, or that an FC is different from a slave in label only.
And yet......there are those who lean that way.
There are, likewise, those who draw a far starker deliniation between FC and slave than others do.
Let me ask this of those reading here........
 
Does the personal opinion of any one human being alter how you see Gorean philosophy?  How you preceive life?  Where you fix your personal convictions?
I don't think John Norman considers FCs to be slaves who get to wear more clothing.  IF he happened to.....it WOULD NOT CHANGE, in and of itself, how I personally see Gorean philosophy.  It would serve as an additional filter to be looked through, held onto with the other keepers, or tossed in File 13.

The text of the Gor books is there for the reading.
John Norman's personal views do not alter how I see those words.
The challenge here is to take a hard look at what is in those books, from all angles, in the light and filters of those you respect, of historical record, the filters of those philosophers and scholars far brighter than you and I.  To seek out the authentic self within, to know that person, and the world surounding it. In the end, you find there something worth holding on to and implementing within your own living, or you don't.
 
To you, Laraby, I must say, it is impossible for me to wrap my mind around you keeping your FC in a collar, and calling it Gorean.  A BDSM collar and a Gorean one are not the same thing.  Nowhere even close to the same thing.  One word can have two vastly differing meanings in two different languages...just ask anyone who has studied the history of advertising's greatest disasters.
 
You are certainly free to put a collar around your female's neck.  You can even call it Gorean...just like you could call her a refugee from the planet Pluto, or that a Priest King was a frog.  Saying it doesn't make it so.
 
Leonidas put it very wellin another thread...I'm paraphrasing...The differences between FC and slave are pretty clear, but if you don't have the pegs in your brain to hang those distinctions on, you probably won't "get it".  Like getting the difference between what is cool and what is un-cool, it requires a pretty good exposure to and understanding of the culture. 
 
In this case, my own opinion is that it takes a strong understanding of the difference between freedom and slavery, captivity and enslavement, mate and property.
 
Grace

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 2/5/2009 9:55:49 AM >

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 3:45:34 PM   
LarabysLair


Posts: 156
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

FR -


To you, Laraby, I must say, it is impossible for me to wrap my mind around you keeping your FC in a collar, and calling it Gorean.  A BDSM collar and a Gorean one are not the same thing.  Nowhere even close to the same thing.  One word can have two vastly differing meanings in two different languages...just ask anyone who has studied the history of advertising's greatest disasters.
 
You are certainly free to put a collar around your female's neck.  You can even call it Gorean...just like you could call her a refugee from the planet Pluto, or that a Priest King was a frog.  Saying it doesn't make it so.


Greetings, Grace

OK. Here's the main idea for me and Angel. For one thing, I am basing my life on things I consider important in the Gorean philos. Does that make me a died-in-the-wool Gorean? Probably not. This is because I take from the books the things that make sense for me and leave the rest as wishful thinking or fantasy.

For one thing, I believe that the order of nature is a law that is unbreachable.  I've heard some say that some women are more dominant than some men. Sure, in a very small percentage of cases, but not overall and not in the case of myself and angel. I am most definitely her dominant. I dare say, however, that there are many men of Earth that she would put to their knees and be as Ubara or Tatrix to them if she had the opportunity. She has done so in the past. Men in general she finds weak and spineless. On this board, we have seen men that she might consider showing deference to, but certainly not all. So, can I say she would be the perfect little kajira of all the free here? Not a chance. Why would I wish her to?

In my view, if we were on Gor then I would make her thus a slave, reduced to rightless slavery, because I would suspect the general populace to be true Gorean men. However, this is a public board on Earth, hence not so many Gorean men here, or even Gorean women. So, I would not wish her to be accosted and abused by fools and cretins. As my FC, she commands the respect of the free and remains free in socierty at large (as on this board). However, in my house she is as I choose her to be - naked collared and at my feet. She will serve me perfectly and be kept under perfect discipline. She knows her place here.

I don't care who thinks it's wrong or ungorean or harsh or mean. It is my home, domain, castle, Home Stone, or what have you and I am sovereign here. She will be as I wish. Am I the only man that can render her submission from her? Perhaps. But, who cares. If she finds another man worthy of respect and the title of Master, then she will defer to him naturally. But, if anyone thinks to steal away my FC, they can be sure she will be fought for. However, if she happens to become truly enslaved, then that's what she will be to me. That's not likely to happen on Earth, so I don't spend any time in concern about it.

quote:


Leonidas put it very wellin another thread...I'm paraphrasing...The differences between FC and slave are pretty clear, but if you don't have the pegs in your brain to hang those distinctions on, you probably won't "get it".  Like getting the difference between what is cool and what is un-cool, it requires a pretty good exposure to and understanding of the culture. 


Leonidas is correct in general. But, on Gor as on Earth there are no absolutes. Men will accomplish their goals in the way that makes sense to them.

I wish you well

LL

< Message edited by LarabysLair -- 2/5/2009 3:48:39 PM >

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 3:57:36 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 1600
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LarabysLair

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

FR -


To you, Laraby, I must say, it is impossible for me to wrap my mind around you keeping your FC in a collar, and calling it Gorean.  A BDSM collar and a Gorean one are not the same thing.  Nowhere even close to the same thing.  One word can have two vastly differing meanings in two different languages...just ask anyone who has studied the history of advertising's greatest disasters.
 
You are certainly free to put a collar around your female's neck.  You can even call it Gorean...just like you could call her a refugee from the planet Pluto, or that a Priest King was a frog.  Saying it doesn't make it so.


Greetings, Grace

OK. Here's the main idea for me and Angel. For one thing, I am basing my life on things I consider important in the Gorean philos. Does that make me a died-in-the-wool Gorean? Probably not. This is because I take from the books the things that make sense for me and leave the rest as wishful thinking or fantasy.

For one thing, I believe that the order of nature is a law that is unbreachable.  I've heard some say that some women are more dominant than some men. Sure, in a very small percentage of cases, but not overall and not in the case of myself and angel. I am most definitely her dominant. I dare say, however, that there are many men of Earth that she would put to their knees and be as Ubara or Tatrix to them if she had the opportunity. She has done so in the past. Men in general she finds weak and spineless. On this board, we have seen men that she might consider showing deference to, but certainly not all. So, can I say she would be the perfect little kajira of all the free here? Not a chance. Why would I wish her to?

In my view, if we were on Gor then I would make her thus a slave, reduced to rightless slavery, because I would suspect the general populace to be true Gorean men. However, this is a public board on Earth, hence not so many Gorean men here, or even Gorean women. So, I would not wish her to be accosted and abused by fools and cretins. As my FC, she commands the respect of the free and remains free in socierty at large (as on this board). However, in my house she is as I choose her to be - naked collared and at my feet. She will serve me perfectly and be kept under perfect discipline. She knows her place here.

I don't care who thinks it's wrong or ungorean or harsh or mean. It is my home, domain, castle, Home Stone, or what have you and I am sovereign here. She will be as I wish. Am I the only man that can render her submission from her? Perhaps. But, who cares. If she finds another man worthy of respect and the title of Master, then she will defer to him naturally. But, if anyone thinks to steal away my FC, they can be sure she will be fought for. However, if she happens to become truly enslaved, then that's what she will be to me. That's not likely to happen on Earth, so I don't spend any time in concern about it.

quote:


Leonidas put it very wellin another thread...I'm paraphrasing...The differences between FC and slave are pretty clear, but if you don't have the pegs in your brain to hang those distinctions on, you probably won't "get it".  Like getting the difference between what is cool and what is un-cool, it requires a pretty good exposure to and understanding of the culture. 


Leonidas is correct in general. But, on Gor as on Earth there are no absolutes. Men will accomplish their goals in the way that makes sense to them.

I wish you well

LL


Greetings LarabysLair


Seems to me you have a slave in Free's clothing. But it's your house, run it how you see fit.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

Genuine catnip/kryptonite.
Ego sum erus.

The capacity to learn is a gift, the ability to learn a skill, the willingness to learn a choice. Dune HH

(in reply to LarabysLair)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 4:22:29 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16551
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		~FR~

Here again we see a discussion that becomes who is slave and who is FW. Once again, I wonder why anyone cares what another man chooses to do with his woman. But since labels and definitions seem so crucial to so many, probably a discussion rut that will only wear deeper.

Perhaps Edna St. Vincent Millay can help with a few sonnets:

Women have loved before as I love now;
At least, in lively chronicles of the past—
Of Irish waters by a Cornish prow
Or Trojan waters by a Spartan mast
Much to their cost invaded—here and there,
Hunting the amorous line, skimming the rest,
I find some woman bearing as I bear
Love like a burning city in the breast.
I think however that of all alive
I only in such utter, ancient way
Do suffer love; in me alone survive
The unregenerate passions of a day
When treacherous queens, with death upon the tread,
Heedless and willful, took their knights to bed.

....hmmm. Possible slave heat there?

I, being born a woman and distressed
By all the needs and notions of my kind,
Am urged by your propinquity to find
Your person fair, and feel a certain zest
To bear your body's weight upon my breasts:
So subtly the pulse and cloud the mind,
And leave me once again undone, possessed.
Think not for this, however, the poor reason
Of my stout blood against my staggering brain,
I shall remember you with love, or season
My scorn with pity let me make it plain:
I find this frenzy insufficient reason
For conversation when we meet again.

...no....that's a FW.

LL--I actually agree with you on this one. And blacksword, your last sentence is dead on.

Live well,

Tim






< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 2/5/2009 4:23:32 PM >

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 5:01:01 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings LL,


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarabysLair

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

FR -


To you, Laraby, I must say, it is impossible for me to wrap my mind around you keeping your FC in a collar, and calling it Gorean.  A BDSM collar and a Gorean one are not the same thing.  Nowhere even close to the same thing.  One word can have two vastly differing meanings in two different languages...just ask anyone who has studied the history of advertising's greatest disasters.
 
You are certainly free to put a collar around your female's neck.  You can even call it Gorean...just like you could call her a refugee from the planet Pluto, or that a Priest King was a frog.  Saying it doesn't make it so.


Greetings, Grace

OK. Here's the main idea for me and Angel. For one thing, I am basing my life on things I consider important in the Gorean philos. Does that make me a died-in-the-wool Gorean? Probably not. This is because I take from the books the things that make sense for me and leave the rest as wishful thinking or fantasy.


Your word usage is a bit derogatory above, but then again it seems par for the course around here lately (including myself). So those that do incorporate the other things are basing it on fantasy or wishful thinking? I can understand taking things from the books and using what you agree with, but that is not following Gorean philosophy. If it works for you great, but you cannot really call it part of the Gorean philosophy/morality.

quote:


For one thing, I believe that the order of nature is a law that is unbreachable.


Actually it is breachable, but when done so it causes problems. That is part of what Norman is writing about. Technology and societal pressures can change how people act and react. That fact alone shows it is breachable. Now to what degree it can occur would be a good statement/discussion and maybe that is what you are trying to get at.

quote:


I've heard some say that some women are more dominant than some men. Sure, in a very small percentage of cases, but not overall and not in the case of myself and angel. I am most definitely her dominant. I dare say, however, that there are many men of Earth that she would put to their knees and be as Ubara or Tatrix to them if she had the opportunity. She has done so in the past. Men in general she finds weak and spineless. On this board, we have seen men that she might consider showing deference to, but certainly not all. So, can I say she would be the perfect little kajira of all the free here? Not a chance. Why would I wish her to?


This is a divergance from Gorean custom, and if that makes for a good relationship, go for it. It is not Gorean though. Just as marriage of any kind is not Gorean. Now the question would be does it go against Gorean philosophy/morality?

quote:


In my view, if we were on Gor then I would make her thus a slave, reduced to rightless slavery, because I would suspect the general populace to be true Gorean men. However, this is a public board on Earth, hence not so many Gorean men here, or even Gorean women. So, I would not wish her to be accosted and abused by fools and cretins. As my FC, she commands the respect of the free and remains free in socierty at large (as on this board). However, in my house she is as I choose her to be - naked collared and at my feet. She will serve me perfectly and be kept under perfect discipline. She knows her place here.


My slave does not serve all Free in whatever manner they demand. She has some rules I have put in place, just for those that wish to claim Gorean as a way to be domineering over females because they cannot master them. If this is how you wish to do it fine, but you have described to me, a slave.

quote:


I don't care who thinks it's wrong or ungorean or harsh or mean. It is my home, domain, castle, Home Stone, or what have you and I am sovereign here. She will be as I wish. Am I the only man that can render her submission from her? Perhaps. But, who cares. If she finds another man worthy of respect and the title of Master, then she will defer to him naturally. But, if anyone thinks to steal away my FC, they can be sure she will be fought for. However, if she happens to become truly enslaved, then that's what she will be to me. That's not likely to happen on Earth, so I don't spend any time in concern about it.


Correction of point, you actually do care otherwise you would not feel the need to justify it with so many words. Just say "my house, my rules and I do not care if it is unGorean or not." Your statements do seem to mix BDSM, Gor and personal philosophy together, which I again state if it works for you great. It is not Gorean though. What do you mean by "truly enslaved"?

quote:


quote:


Leonidas put it very wellin another thread...I'm paraphrasing...The differences between FC and slave are pretty clear, but if you don't have the pegs in your brain to hang those distinctions on, you probably won't "get it".  Like getting the difference between what is cool and what is un-cool, it requires a pretty good exposure to and understanding of the culture. 


Leonidas is correct in general. But, on Gor as on Earth there are no absolutes. Men will accomplish their goals in the way that makes sense to them.

I wish you well

LL


I agree there are no absolutes, but there are some pretty clear lines that on one side you have one thing, and on the other side you have another. I myself have sometimes had a problem seeing those lines, and sometimes when I do I accept that I am not on the Gorean side of it.

Free Companion is a Gorean term, and it is very misleading, almost dishonest to use that term, when in fact what you have described is a slave. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but that is how it is. I could care less what she is, but please do not use terminology that shrouds something in untruth.

Live the way you wish, love the way you wish, keep your house and females the way you wish, and do not apolgize for it. That is the best advice I can give on this whole matter.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to LarabysLair)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 5:17:33 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LarabysLair

OK. Here's the main idea for me and Angel. For one thing, I am basing my life on things I consider important in the Gorean philos. Does that make me a died-in-the-wool Gorean? Probably not. This is because I take from the books the things that make sense for me and leave the rest as wishful thinking or fantasy.


You think the difference between a Free Companion and a slave is fantasy?

quote:

For one thing, I believe that the order of nature is a law that is unbreachable.  I've heard some say that some women are more dominant than some men. Sure, in a very small percentage of cases, but not overall and not in the case of myself and angel. I am most definitely her dominant.


On this one we are just never going to see eye to eye.  There are quite a few women more dominant than the majority men, and more still who would be on a par with many.  The overlapping bell curves of male and female dominance scale are not vastly offset, though they are, IMO, noticably so.
 
It is one thing to be the dominant partner in a relationshp.  It is another to exert what is required to enslave, and to be Master.

quote:

I dare say, however, that there are many men of Earth that she would put to their knees and be as Ubara or Tatrix to them if she had the opportunity. She has done so in the past. Men in general she finds weak and spineless. On this board, we have seen men that she might consider showing deference to, but certainly not all. So, can I say she would be the perfect little kajira of all the free here? Not a chance. Why would I wish her to?

In my view, if we were on Gor then I would make her thus a slave, reduced to rightless slavery, because I would suspect the general populace to be true Gorean men. However, this is a public board on Earth, hence not so many Gorean men here, or even Gorean women. So, I would not wish her to be accosted and abused by fools and cretins. As my FC, she commands the respect of the free and remains free in socierty at large (as on this board).
 

OK, so what you are saying is that your home is one of those cases where the robes go on when she leaves the house or logs on to the internet, and the collar goes on when she comes back home or logs off.

A slave who you wish to present herself as free in public, so as to bend to no other than you.  IOW, a slave that you desire to place on peer footing with the free  she meets outside your home.
 
It is one thing to try that, and another to succeed at it.  She will be treated by others as they see her to merit.  It is the way life generally works.  Out in the nilla world, it will probably work acceptably well.  Around the Goreans I've met in person, it wouldn't fly as well as a concrete balloon.
 
Honestly, to actively attempt to pass a slave off as an FC because you don't want her treated as what she is, is likely to be seen as insulting to those who actaully ARE Free.  And as to "she commands the respect"...ummm...no.  Respect is earned.  Period.  Anything else is just the posturings of pc society, or courtesy and good manners.  And just for the record, my own good manners are often seen as deference.  Wrong.  Very few have ever earned that from me.  In spite of that, I manage to get along ok in most social situations - even Gorean ones.

quote:

  However, in my house she is as I choose her to be - naked collared and at my feet. She will serve me perfectly and be kept under perfect discipline. She knows her place here.

I don't care who thinks it's wrong or ungorean or harsh or mean. It is my home, domain, castle, Home Stone, or what have you and I am sovereign here. She will be as I wish. Am I the only man that can render her submission from her? Perhaps. But, who cares. If she finds another man worthy of respect and the title of Master, then she will defer to him naturally.
 

Yes, your home, you run it as you see fit.  I'm just surprised that you desire to call it Gorean. 
 
quote:

 But, if anyone thinks to steal away my FC, they can be sure she will be fought for. However, if she happens to become truly enslaved, then that's what she will be to me. That's not likely to happen on Earth, so I don't spend any time in concern about it.
 

Why would you be all that worried about someone in an online forum trying to steal her away?  If she's your mate or slave, and happy there seems it wouldn't be bloody damn likely, regardless of who she was talking to.  How does her behaving as what and who she actually is, with or without the robes, make you vulnerable to loosing her, if she's happily yours?

quote:



Leonidas is correct in general. But, on Gor as on Earth there are no absolutes. Men will accomplish their goals in the way that makes sense to them.


I'm not real big on ablsolutes myself.  "Range of normal with exceptions" is more how I tend to see life.  There are some things, however, that are mutually exclusive in my opinion.  A person being both slave and free is one of those situations.  It is rather like being a little bit pregnant.  It is probably best that I now leave this discussion, rather than beating dead horses.  Thanks for the clarifications.
 
Grace

(in reply to LarabysLair)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 5:23:47 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hello Tim,

quote:

Once again, I wonder why anyone cares what another man chooses to do with his woman.


Frankly I could care less what he does in his home.   What I find disconcerning is the mockery he is making of  free, slaves and a basic Gorean tenent.   As you know, in the Gorean culture, there are either slaves OR free.  That's it, nothing else.  No "hybrid", and the reason he gave?  Because OTHERS would respect her???  Is he kidding?   Not a Gorean I know would give her a modicum of respect, let alone "command" respect.      Where in the books was a slave treated as a free? Given respect of a free?  Treated a slave one place, free another place?  It's either or, not some sort of a hybrid.

But absolutely, it's his home, to run as he sees fit, I totally agree.  It's just not Gorean. He's just one more person claiming to be Gor...but not really Gor.  Just bits and pieces of Gor, not died in the wool Gorean.  

There are new people here that read the forums, and because of him, and those like him, at least until they read the books, at least until they figure out what he is saying is wrong - could actually think...wow, this is cool, "anything and everything" could be Gorean.  So while on the surface it might seem like ...hey who cares - it's "his' woman....well stop and take a different look.    To me it's far deeper than that, it's only the tip of the iceberg, of problems that have plagued Gor for years.  But then again, I've seen those that think like him...not hang around for all that long.  They tend to not stay when called accountable for what they are saying.

I wish you well,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 5:39:34 PM   
LarabysLair


Posts: 156
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Greetings LL,


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarabysLair

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

FR -


To you, Laraby, I must say, it is impossible for me to wrap my mind around you keeping your FC in a collar, and calling it Gorean.  A BDSM collar and a Gorean one are not the same thing.  Nowhere even close to the same thing.  One word can have two vastly differing meanings in two different languages...just ask anyone who has studied the history of advertising's greatest disasters.
 
You are certainly free to put a collar around your female's neck.  You can even call it Gorean...just like you could call her a refugee from the planet Pluto, or that a Priest King was a frog.  Saying it doesn't make it so.


Greetings, Grace

OK. Here's the main idea for me and Angel. For one thing, I am basing my life on things I consider important in the Gorean philos. Does that make me a died-in-the-wool Gorean? Probably not. This is because I take from the books the things that make sense for me and leave the rest as wishful thinking or fantasy.


Your word usage is a bit derogatory above, but then again it seems par for the course around here lately (including myself). So those that do incorporate the other things are basing it on fantasy or wishful thinking? I can understand taking things from the books and using what you agree with, but that is not following Gorean philosophy. If it works for you great, but you cannot really call it part of the Gorean philosophy/morality.


I am choosing words related to the fact that the books are indeed fiction. The philos are very applicable to life, but one must earn those truths on his iwn. No where does Lange state "this is philosophical teaching" and "now back to the fiction." Obviously, the fiction makes for a very interesting read. Of course, to the astute reader much more is said than strictly needs to be. Those parts include gratuitous details of Gorean items and methods - warfare and such. Other parts include various undisguised truths about the difference between Earth and Gor, women and men, acting and living, fealty and honor, respect and disdain, etc. It is, or should be, obvious to him (the astute reader) what is strictly fictional or fantastical and what could be internalized.

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For one thing, I believe that the order of nature is a law that is unbreachable.


Actually it is breachable, but when done so it causes problems. That is part of what Norman is writing about. Technology and societal pressures can change how people act and react. That fact alone shows it is breachable. Now to what degree it can occur would be a good statement/discussion and maybe that is what you are trying to get at.


You see what I mean then. Yes, even gravity can be breached as a law. However, the results of such abrogation are seldom nice or desirable. Example: Jump off a very tall building and hope to float. Rockets and such may do so, but at what expense? Tremendous amounts of technology and fuel. Western society does indeed breach this law, but not with impunity. The results are a crumbling society of weaklings, high percentage of failed marriages and other relationships, mass idiocy and more.

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I've heard some say that some women are more dominant than some men. Sure, in a very small percentage of cases, but not overall and not in the case of myself and angel. I am most definitely her dominant. I dare say, however, that there are many men of Earth that she would put to their knees and be as Ubara or Tatrix to them if she had the opportunity. She has done so in the past. Men in general she finds weak and spineless. On this board, we have seen men that she might consider showing deference to, but certainly not all. So, can I say she would be the perfect little kajira of all the free here? Not a chance. Why would I wish her to?


This is a divergance from Gorean custom, and if that makes for a good relationship, go for it. It is not Gorean though. Just as marriage of any kind is not Gorean. Now the question would be does it go against Gorean philosophy/morality?


It is not Gorean mainstream. True. But is it unheard of in the books? Not really, as there way a passage I read where something very similar was noted in passing. I shall have to go and find it now.

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In my view, if we were on Gor then I would make her thus a slave, reduced to rightless slavery, because I would suspect the general populace to be true Gorean men. However, this is a public board on Earth, hence not so many Gorean men here, or even Gorean women. So, I would not wish her to be accosted and abused by fools and cretins. As my FC, she commands the respect of the free and remains free in socierty at large (as on this board). However, in my house she is as I choose her to be - naked collared and at my feet. She will serve me perfectly and be kept under perfect discipline. She knows her place here.


My slave does not serve all Free in whatever manner they demand. She has some rules I have put in place, just for those that wish to claim Gorean as a way to be domineering over females because they cannot master them. If this is how you wish to do it fine, but you have described to me, a slave.


You have more faith in Earthmen than I, Orion. Honestly speaking, she is a slave and knows it within her heart. When at gatherings she happily takes her place with the serving wenches and pot girls and is fully accepted and loves her service. But, I know those men and women. That does make a difference. I know of their honor and integrity and veracity as Goreans. She has no need to fear and cringe, abused by assholes. It is my job to protect her mentally and emotionally from such as they.

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I don't care who thinks it's wrong or ungorean or harsh or mean. It is my home, domain, castle, Home Stone, or what have you and I am sovereign here. She will be as I wish. Am I the only man that can render her submission from her? Perhaps. But, who cares. If she finds another man worthy of respect and the title of Master, then she will defer to him naturally. But, if anyone thinks to steal away my FC, they can be sure she will be fought for. However, if she happens to become truly enslaved, then that's what she will be to me. That's not likely to happen on Earth, so I don't spend any time in concern about it.


Correction of point, you actually do care otherwise you would not feel the need to justify it with so many words. Just say "my house, my rules and I do not care if it is unGorean or not." Your statements do seem to mix BDSM, Gor and personal philosophy together, which I again state if it works for you great. It is not Gorean though. What do you mean by "truly enslaved"?


I did say that. :)  This board gets its share of BDSMers, let's not kid ourselves.  Those statements about calling themselves Master is directed at those types. My personal philosphies aside, we must all square Gorean philosophy with our own personal philosophy.  If one wins over the other, the other is just accepted as an alternative viewpoint but not ones own belief. Of, course, I don't reject any philosophy part and parcel. I embrace the finer points of each, the ones that make sense and fit in with my own world view.

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Leonidas put it very wellin another thread...I'm paraphrasing...The differences between FC and slave are pretty clear, but if you don't have the pegs in your brain to hang those distinctions on, you probably won't "get it".  Like getting the difference between what is cool and what is un-cool, it requires a pretty good exposure to and understanding of the culture. 


Leonidas is correct in general. But, on Gor as on Earth there are no absolutes. Men will accomplish their goals in the way that makes sense to them.

I wish you well

LL


I agree there are no absolutes, but there are some pretty clear lines that on one side you have one thing, and on the other side you have another. I myself have sometimes had a problem seeing those lines, and sometimes when I do I accept that I am not on the Gorean side of it.

Free Companion is a Gorean term, and it is very misleading, almost dishonest to use that term, when in fact what you have described is a slave. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but that is how it is. I could care less what she is, but please do not use terminology that shrouds something in untruth.


I daresay untruth and shrouding of facts, is not ungorean by nature. Consider the entire premise of the Caste of Initiates. Goreans accept the lie and even promulgate it. In fact Goreans in the books have been said to send their slaves out to work in the garb of FW and strip them when the return home. Is this so different?

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Live the way you wish, love the way you wish, keep your house and females the way you wish, and do not apolgize for it. That is the best advice I can give on this whole matter.

Live well,
Orion


No apologies made - only brief explanations. Well, perhaps this was not as brief as it could have been. *wry grin*

Be at peace,

LL

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/5/2009 5:45:46 PM   
LarabysLair


Posts: 156
Joined: 5/29/2008
Status: offline 		Your welcome. And I agree, no sense in equine necrophilia with leather implements, unless one gets into that sort of wierdness. *grin*

LL

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 3:06:59 AM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		The subtle difference between the slaves in robes as described in the books and what Laraby is doing is that those book versions did not have their owners nudging everyone they met saying "yeah but really she is my slave I just don't want her abused by mean old Goreans".

From your initial posts here you, Laraby and angel showed her slave status, if memory serves you got a roughish ride, a minor hiatus and she returned as your FC. Okay, men can decide to honestly free their slaves, benefit of the doubt that such was the case was given, up until the above paraphrased statement was made by you.


Personally I find it no less disturbing when a slave is masqueraded as an FC than when so called slaves think because they are owned they can treat other women, usually FW as equals.

I have seen no evidence that slaves here are abused or maltreated in any greater numbers or manner than the free, male and female. It would therefore seem a poor excuse with which you accuse yourself.




(in reply to LarabysLair)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 6:55:48 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings all

First off Orion I must comment on something.  Using the “it’s BDSM” card does little to add to the discussion.  How often I cringe when something comes up that doesn’t fit the cut and dry people use, “it’s just BDSM.”   Bosk dung!  Just because it’s not one it doesn’t by defacto make it another.

I would like people to take a step back for a moment and look at the relationship not the labels.  Don’t focus on free slave submissive or what ever other little phrase we get caught up with.  What would we say it if he said simply, she is mine and screw anyone who takes tries to mess with what is mine.  She is everything I want her to be and so much more.  Before we try to slap a label on it ask, is that concept Gorean in any shape or form.  Why or why not?

I think the hang up here is more about what do we call it then anything else, and that is shrouding everything.  I truly mean everything.  Because we don’t like what he calls it, it is suddenly unGorean, and that dear friends is the only reason so far that I have seen that makes it unGorean, the label.  (So it must be more a long the line of BDSM, come on really, is that the best we got.)

And no I am not trying to “change” crap I am trying to get people to look past superficial and actually think.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Naturallurker)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 7:20:46 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		G'morning, Jahna,

My issue with this sort of thing is the deceit involved. I prefer direct, blunt honesty -- call it what it is to you & the rest be damned.

I dislike the belief that many seem to have that through deception & manipulation they can 1- smooth the way for themself (no hassles over someone here hurting the slavey's feewings) & 2 - gain something they think can't be gained honestly (respect).

I also think there's this thing called personal sovereignty that makes such dual roles played to appease the expectations of others beneath the dignity of most Goreans.

*shrugs*

We will get what we accept as 'virtuous conduct'.

I won't condone it, but ultimately it's not up to me. The men will decide what's acceptable to them & the only choice I'll have is to accept it or leave.

I wish you well, Jahna,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 8:31:26 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		There is a quote somewhere in the books about women who in public are free with all the privileges that comes with it and yet in the privacy of their own homes they are slaves.

People like to put labels on other people it makes it convenient, and if a man doesn’t want his slave subjected to the treatment slaves get fine call her free.

However in saying that what I object to though is men that flaunt this fact, if your free companion is only free in public then keep the slave bit secret from everyone, because else it just makes you look like an overly protective idiot.

See its supposed to be a secret so people don’t react the way we do, and think wannabe.

Cheryl

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 8:58:28 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

There is a quote somewhere in the books about women who in public are free with all the privileges that comes with it and yet in the privacy of their own homes they are slaves.

People like to put labels on other people it makes it convenient, and if a man doesn’t want his slave subjected to the treatment slaves get fine call her free.

However in saying that what I object to though is men that flaunt this fact, if your free companion is only free in public then keep the slave bit secret from everyone, because else it just makes you look like an overly protective idiot.

See its supposed to be a secret so people don’t react the way we do, and think wannabe.

Cheryl


Incredibly well put, Cheryl.
 
Grace

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 9:00:06 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2356
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace
On this one we are just never going to see eye to eye.  There are quite a few women more dominant than the majority men, and more still who would be on a par with many.  The overlapping bell curves of male and female dominance scale are not vastly offset, though they are, IMO, noticably so.

Now, this view of "natural dominance" makes a lot more sense to me. I agree that on average, women are both socially and sexually more likely to be submissive than men are, but there are lots of individuals who are the other way around. I'm dominant toward a few men, submissive toward even fewer, and generally egalitarian or neutral with most.


(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 9:20:07 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Kim

I understand the issue involved with the label, it is perfectly clear, though honestly how can we address what to call it until we know what we are looking at. 

Look at it this way, it she a slave or isn't she a slave is obviously the issue.  You can't address the question till you know what exactly a slave is can you?  Is their relationship the master slave kind or not?  It is not enough in my mind to say she obeys and that makes a slave.  She serves me and that makes a slave etc.  Both you and I know just calling it something doesn't make it so.  Now what it becomes a my gor is better then your gor game instead of sitting back and say ok why or why not.  My house my rules doesn't answer it either nor shed that much more light on the whole issue.

Ok so some say "I see a slave" but why?  What makes someone outside say that.  Obedience is that the catch phrase?  You honestly have to strip it bare to see the layers involved.  Perhaps looking deeper then absolutes and catch phrases people will start to begin to understand what is and is not.  I am sorry open toe shoes no more makes a slave then eager to serve people a cold one does.  There is far far more.

So while I hate deceit as much as you do,  this isn't about that at all, or maybe it is.  Quick conclusions and static answers won't answer it though.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/6/2009 10:29:39 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings LL,

I have read your posts and reasons and I have read everyone elses posts and responses to you.

I can say I agree most with what Orion has stated.
As a man, you are indeed entitled to run your home and women as you see fit.BUT, that does not make it Gorean.
My feeling on it is this. angel is your slave, that makes her a slave no matter where she is. Out in the malls and stores in every day life and most certainly online in chat rooms and message boards.
No one is attempting to insult you or her by saying so, or by treating her as such.
IMO, for Goreans to treat her as a slave, is only being true to their nature and hers and to Gorean philos as a whole. In fact it is a show of respect to your decision in making your woman a slave.
she does not need to pretend to be a FW or FC in order for you to keep her away from the influences of people you do not condone.
If your true purpose here is to mix BDSM with Gor, then that is fine, just say so. But, in all honesty, it is not nor can not ever be, considered Gorean.So what? Does that mean you as a man will not be taken seriously by other Gorean men? is that what weighs heavy on your mind? I suggest to you, that it shouldnt. I suggest you live the life that makes you happy and content and live it without distortions or compromises.
Just a little food for thought is all.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to LarabysLair)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/7/2009 8:54:44 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		G'morning, Jahna,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca
I understand the issue involved with the label, it is perfectly clear, though honestly how can we address what to call it until we know what we are looking at. 


On the 'net we have only the statements another person makes on which to base our conclusion. The man says she is his slave. I take him at his word until he shows its not to be trusted.

When the couple at hand initially arrived on the Gorean board, they presented as an M/s couple. I take them at their word until they show its not to be trusted. Elsewhere on the CM boards, she presents as a slave. He has stated that elsewhere offline, at gatherings & such, she presents as a slave. Until such time as I have first-hand facts seen by my own eyes, I take him at his word until he shows his word is not to be trusted.

Now, they return, he has made it clear that, while she is his slave (in his opinion), he has chosen to garb her in the "Robes of a Free Woman" here on the Gorean boards only. I'm not clear on his reasons, perhaps he fears she will get her throat sliced by some particularly sharp & cutting remark. *shrugs* Regardless, this is his stated choice.

MY issue is not with the label, the person's actual 'authentic self (thanks Grace!) -- those are not my domain. Those are the concerns of the man & his female. They can address those issues or not, as they choose.

For me, the actual crux of the matter is that the man has made it clear that he expects the Free here to accomodate & support this facade of his slave being a "FC" here on the Gorean boards.

I dislike deceit. I will not choose to take part in deceit here on the 'net. Over time, such efforts to deceive, be they tiny little cheats on one's taxes or great big fallacies like "I did not have sex with that woman", will prove a person's words cannot be trusted. At that moment, all statements that person made will become suspect. I do not intend to toss out everything the man has said just yet, because of this one instance of deceit. However, I DO intend to watch carefully as time passes to see if such deception is a habit.

As for the many people stating they can quote passages from the books to support either position; this is true. Goreans in the novels did some deceptive stuff. However, what seems most quickly forgotten is the level of accountability to which those same Goreans were subject.

Yes, a man could send his slave to work in the Robes of a Free Woman...... AND .....any slave caught impersonating a Free person was, by Gorean law, subject to impalement. So, while a Gorean man (in the novels) CAN engage in such a deceit, he understood & accepted that the consequence may be that he loses his slavegirl irrevocably. 

Yes, there are passages where men in the novels kept their woman as a 'perfect' slave in the privacy of their home while presenting her as their FC to all others. However, it was "scandalous", it was seen as a "farce".

While I concede that any free person has the right to make their relationship into a "farce" if they so wish, they cannot demand any other free person to condone nor support it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca
So while I hate deceit as much as you do,  this isn't about that at all, or maybe it is.  Quick conclusions and static answers won't answer it though.


Until such time as I can see, with my own eyes, the presence of mastery in their relationship, I am only able to use the statements of the pair of them to make a judgment. This is true for you as well. Time will show, for those paying attention, if those statements can be trusted. It's NOT a quick process & it's not a static answer to the "is she a slave or not" question. It IS the best we can do here, online.

In my personal opinion, its a whole lot more important to decide if a person is being honest, genuine & striving for excellence than debate about which comes first: the label or the identity. Anyone who has not yet realized that the actions of a person reveal their identity & thus either confirm their chosen label OR make said label meaningless ain't gonna have an epiphany from this exchange!

Take good care, lady!

~Kim

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: FC always lasts at lease a year? - 2/8/2009 10:38:59 AM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 117
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		general reply

in a moment of Eureka proportions it has just occurred to me what people in this sort of situation mean by FC.
FC = Freedom of Convenience.

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 40
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