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ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Ironically, you point out the heart of the matter unintentionally in the way you asked the question.

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Goreans operate using a different definition of "good" than most folks in our popular culture.  Can you articulate the Gorean definition of "good", or "right"?  If you can, and once you do, can you honestly say you agree with it?  If you can't, or don't, then no, it's not really possible for you to be a "Good Gorean", is it?

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You live in a society where the the notion of "Justice" is predicated on the presumption of "equality".  Where "good" is roughly defined as that which upholds that notion of "equality" by ensuring the life and liberty of each and every human who now draws breath, and will draw breath.Is that a morality with which you are comfortable?  If it is, "good" and "Gorean" don't belong in the same sentence for you.

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I know that your question probably arises because of some petty bickering about whether some practice or attitude is "Gorean" or not, but that's just the prattle of children.  Ask the real question.

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ORIGINAL: xBullx

I suspect that my thoughts will coincide with those of Leonidas to begin with. I think the primary topic to consider is the morality that exists in the Gorean ideology. And contrary to Mitzie’s claim the Gorean attitude does exist in stone, or at least in text. The complex issue for most is trying to extract a workable version of the philosophy. As Leonidas pointed out, it’s probably not about finding a way to make it work for your personal application; it’s about understanding the philosophy in its entirety and then you either agree with it, live it or you don’t.

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As Trevelyan has recently pointed out the Gorean morality existed in very similar fashion no matter which cultural variation Norman described. And as I mentioned in the previous paragraph this morality does have a defined existence and If people are not too busy denying certain factors that makes them uncomfortable or sifting through the books for “useable” philosophical tenants, they will probably discover what it is to be a "Good Gorean", if not then they are probably looking for their own rational personal ideology and while there is nothing wrong with establishing their own identity, there is a good chance we won’t see a “Good Gorean” in that.

So at that I think it is first important to determine what Gorean is from an objective perspective, discover what it is without attempting any personal application. When you see it for what it is then ask yourself, “Is this me?”

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Once upon a time I wonder if this Gorean thing was me before I read the books or if I was now too programmed by the suggestion of the morality brought to life in the books. Natalie pointed to the lineage of my family and their personal values and at that I seen a common foundation from which the Gorean beliefs germinated.

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When I see so called confusion, I like to view it as the square peg, round hole concept. Some of us sit there with a hammer just banging away in an attempt at finding something to easily identify with. There is nothing easy about living as a “Good Gorean” in a society that is outwardly against or at least in conflict with certain personal, social and political concepts to which the Gorean would say, “Why so soft?”

But for those that have the desire to be Gorean, yet haven’t to this date found the stomach, conscience, or determination to accept that principles and foundations to be a “Good Gorean” I say, give it time, it will either hit you or you will realize it isn’t for you.

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The Gorean lifestyle is what it is, good or bad. Being a Good Gorean? Well I suspect that isn’t all that difficult either if we aren’t attempting to redefine the concept as we go.

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Just do your best, don’t worry about claiming the title, if being Gorean is significant to you live as you will, do the best you can to apply that which is imperative to you. If in the end someone looks at you and sees a Gorean, good; if not and you are content with the person that you see, live well and smile. The trees never recognize us by a title, to them we simply are.

I'd agree this is good advice to anyone who is terribly concerned with wearing a particular label.  Me?  I'm who I am, warts, frigidity, ShrewBitch disposition and all.  No label required.  Whether or not someone calling me a Gorean is compliment or insult depends entirely upon what I know of that individual.

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ORIGINAL: JarlOlaf

As the Pope of Gor, I just want to remind  you all you should be sending your tithes directly to my numbered swiss bank account.  That being said, I have yet to meet any two Goreans that agree on what being Gorean means, let alone a good gorean. 

Why get hung up on lables anyway...  Be yourself, and you will either be Gorean or Not..

Just a thought

Olaf

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ORIGINAL: amelliagrace
"Is it possible to lead a good Christian life, and not be considered a "good Christian" by most who label themselves one?  Is it possible to lead a fine American life, and be seen as unAmerican by others calling the same nation "home"?  Can one be a patriotic warrior, and yet be vocal about disagreeing with the current administration?

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ORIGINAL: amelliagrace 
Is living in accordance with the spirit of Judaism, the American Dream, or Gorean philosophy different from being an avid adherent of dogma and tradition?

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ORIGINAL: amelliagrace
In your personal opinion, is it possible to lead a good Gorean life, without being seen as a "good Gorean" in the eyes of some..or even the majority...of those who embrace the mantle of "Gorean"?  Why or why not? 

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ORIGINAL: amelliagrace 
What is the essence, the "spirit" if you will, of living Gorean? 

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ORIGINAL: sravaka


I've been thinking (puzzled) on and off since you posted this by the difference between "a good x" and "living a good x life."  I perceive a difference, but find it very hard to articulate.  I've begun to think, though, 1)  that identifying yourself in terms of a noun rather than an adjective indicates some interest in belonging, while recourse to an adjective need not, and 2) that identity as a noun can almost not help referring to or accepting an external authority, while, again, "living a good x life" need not do so. 

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To me, the most pressing question is simply how to lead a good life... and to me that has to do with 1) truthfulness/authenticity (self-oriented) and 2) adding value somehow (other-oriented).  In justifying it, I use what works and makes sense to me, and discard the rest.   I have belonging needs too, of course, but for me those are not framed philosophically?  Or something like that. 

(Clearly, all this needs refining, but I thought I'd throw it out.)

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To me, the most pressing question is simply how to lead a good life... and to me that has to do with 1) truthfulness/authenticity (self-oriented) and 2) adding value somehow (other-oriented). In justifying it, I use what works and makes sense to me, and discard the rest. I have belonging needs too, of course, but for me those are not framed philosophically? Or something like that.

(Clearly, all this needs refining, but I thought I'd throw it out.)



I'd appreciate if you'd expound on this a bit, after you think and refine some more.

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ORIGINAL: amelliagrace
Yes, I inhabit the same rock you and the rest of the homo sapiens do.

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That would be an incorrect assumption. 
 
Unfortunately, many of the real questions lay three layers deeper in the onion than many are willing to brave stinging eyes and offended sensibilities in order to go.

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Over the decades, I've often come back to that discussion, asking myself such things as, "Is it possible to lead a good Christian life, and not be considered a "good Christian" by most who label themselves one?

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 Is it possible to lead a fine American life, and be seen as unAmerican by others calling the same nation "home"?  Can one be a patriotic warrior, and yet be vocal about disagreeing with the current administration? 

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ORIGINAL: JarlOlaf

As the Pope of Gor, I just want to remind  you all you should be sending your tithes directly to my numbered swiss bank account.  That being said, I have yet to meet any two Goreans that agree on what being Gorean means, let alone a good gorean. 

Why get hung up on lables anyway...  Be yourself, and you will either be Gorean or Not..

Just a thought

Olaf

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ORIGINAL: amelliagrace
Yes, I inhabit the same rock you and the rest of the homo sapiens do.

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That would be an incorrect assumption. 
 
Unfortunately, many of the real questions lay three layers deeper in the onion than many are willing to brave stinging eyes and offended sensibilities in order to go.

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Alright, I'll bite.  As to your question:

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Over the decades, I've often come back to that discussion, asking myself such things as, "Is it possible to lead a good Christian life, and not be considered a "good Christian" by most who label themselves one?

 

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The fact that it is possible to live by your personal definition of.. well... anything regardless of how others judge the merits of your personal definition ought to be self-evident to you.  It is your personal definition, is it not?  Of course, nobody has to agree with your personal definition either.  You are mis-construing tolerance (a value of the society that you were raised in) as a philosophical truth.  It isn't.

There is tolerance, and there is tolerance.  It is one thing to tolerate your neighbor sacrificing small animals on an alter in his back yard a few times a year, not inviteing PETA, the Moral Majority, and CBS over for a cookout at your place so they can get a good vantage point for taping the event, protesting, or what have you.  It is another to look at a man you disagree with on many things, each living your lives as Gorean in your own eyes, and agreeing to disagree, thinking, "Well, he's a real jackass sometimes.  Aboslutely wrong on some things. But he's consistant, I'd trust his word over that of 98% of the population, and if I had to share a foxhole with someone, he'd do just fine."  And then there is, "He ain't no Gorean in my view, but if he wants to call himself one,  that's OK with me."  What I was talking about was more in line with the second example.
 
Tolerance certainly is not a philosophical truth.  More of an aid to building groups, societies.  Like any other tool, it can be constructive or destructive, depending on the extent, time, place and skill level with which it is applied.  I hope that made sense, as I'm having a bit of difficulty articulating what I'm thinking in this regard.

 

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 Is it possible to lead a fine American life, and be seen as unAmerican by others calling the same nation "home"?  Can one be a patriotic warrior, and yet be vocal about disagreeing with the current administration? 

American life?  Sure.  Chinese life?  Samurai Life?  Spartan Life?  No, not so much.    You are, again, misconstruing a value (tolerance) that is peculiar to where you live as an immutable truth.  It's not.

Some of we humans have on the one hand a drive for self-determination.  To the extent that you act on that drive, yes, you are living a "Good Gorean Life" in one respect.  To the extent that you are shielded from the consequences of doing so, and demand to be, you are not. 

This is definitely a failing of the society in which you and I reside.  Protecting individuals from the consequences of their actions, day in and day out, year after year, has become, IMO, a cancerous blight.  Seems to me that one can go about living a "Good Gorean Life" without agreeing with, or pleasing, every Gorean one might cross paths with.....so long as there is willingness to accept the consequences of those interactions and the disagreements which arise from them...said willingness being, IMO, a Gorean trait, though one not exclusive to being Gorean.  But underneath that reality lies the fact that others are not bound to consider you, or me, or anyone else as "Gorean".  Additionally, there is the question which crops up in myriad ways, on a regular basis, of  just what is the bottom line of being Gorean.  I certainly don't expect that question to be answered in this thread, or on a message board, but the question does underlie many others that we discuss in this forum.
 
It is possible that people thought I was merely being a sarcastic smart ass in another thread, when I offere a list of things, and said, essentially, "when you figure all that out, you'll know what Gorean is and whether or not you are one, but you probably won't care so much about the label by then, you'll be too busy living it to give a damn."  I wasn't being a sarcastic smart ass.  Discussing Gorean philosophy is, to me, a wonderful thing...a tool for personal growth, developement, and refinement.  But in the end a person either choses to live it or not, and by that time, the opinions of just anyone on a message board don't matter all that much.

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We humans have on the other hand the drive to allegiance, that is to say, the instinct to cast our lot in with others humans for mutual defense and protection, and economies of scale that tend to ensure our survival.  It is this instinct that accounts your desire to apply any label to yourself, be that "Gorean" or "Rastafarian", but that instinct is to some degree at odds with the other one for self-determination above.  To that end, we value a certain degree of predictability in each other.  We call it "sharing values" but it is older than our notion of "values".  It used to simply be the margin that separated survival from death.  Those clans that could act predictably, as one, made it.  Those who didn't, well, some of their "good lives by their own personal standards" came to a pre-mature and brutal end.

Excellent point.

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Your arguments are possible because you enjoy the luxury afforded by those who came before, and survived by being harder and more judgdemental than you have to be, or are prepared to be.  Civilizations are often created by those unfit to actually live in them.  Of course, most civilizations eventually fall because of that fact, too.

Hopefully, that grilled your "onion" a little.  I have to go to work now.

The author  W.E.B. Griffin, in some of his books (He's writtne several excellent fiction series dealing with the military, which are beautifully researched and historically accurate.) discusses this.  Specifically, he discusses some types of warriors, and how many a society needs of them at any given time, due to the demands of the day.  Guys like Ghengis Khan and Atilla the Hun, and George Patton were not exactly universally loved, and not what I'd call easily to live with.  That they played vital roles in their societies is also true.
 
Heh, my great grandmother grew up during the Reconstruction period, in Georgia.  Scarlett O'Hara without the frills, and without the bent toward slavishness.  She was a delight, and a terror.  Not exactly the type of dame most men find peacable to live with.  Women like her, and their male counterparts, have also played vital rolls.  One relative once said, of this woman's mother (who was even "moreso" than her daughters) "It was people like her that ensured the rest of the clan survived, even if they didn't necessarily love her for how she accomplished it."  I wish I'd met that great great grandmother.....and then again.....
 
Thanks for grilling.  It is appreciated.
 
Regards-
Grace

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 2/12/2009 6:55:24 AM >

(in reply to Leonidas)