TavernMaster
Posts: 51
Joined: 9/11/2008
Status: offline
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Time again to respond,
As Jahna points out there are legal concerns to think about and she lists a whole bunch of them. Of which I will not cover since they have already been covered by myself and by my lawyer. And yes I have checked into zoning thus everything is clear in that respect too. As for my neighbors concerns, they might care. But since they are only open M-F until 5pm, I doubt they will seriously even notice the tavern since the taverns hours of operation are after they close on Friday and end before they open on Monday. That was one of the things I considered when seeking out a location, privacy.
Now as for people's claims that I am seeking free legal advice. I am not. The challenge was presented to those that say my tavern is illegal and cannot be done within the laws of the area where my tavern is located. My lawyer and I have looked into those laws and he has given me the legal opinion that what I plan is legal for the area. And we did look into zoning concerns because I didn't want this in my own home. Yes accordingly I also have insurance lined up for the tavern as a business to provide for protection for various liabilities. And yes members must waive certain rights to sue, in order to have an establishment of this type, mostly due to the dungeon space and play spaces, and their uses. But those are standard for the industry which I will not get into.
Now Jahna does bring up the point of real slavery verses pretend slavery. With a real slave not having the ability to say NO while a pretend slave does which is a valid arguement. But legally does a real slave have the ability to say NO. From the legal perspective yes. Thus NO is NO within the tavern.
A real slave will do what their owner tells them to do no matter what. And if that means they go to the play room because they are ordered to then they will go to the play room as ordered. If this is what their owner demands from them with their obediance then that is between them and their owner. Technically they legally are not a slave thus they still have the choice by law to obey or disobey. Whether or not they do or do not when it comes to obeying is again between them as a slave and their owner. The tavern will not force them to obey even their owner while they are within the tavern. Outside of the tavern is no longer a concern of the tavern and thus is a personal issue between them as owner and slave. But while at the tavern the slave gains the protection to say NO, even to their owner.
This protection is for liability and safety reasons. The tavern is located in a place where the law is on the slave's side and the law will be respected at all times. The owner and slave by becoming members of the tavern should respect this along with the other various rules of the tavern. Failure to do so can lead to revocation of membership and or legal authorities getting envolved if necessary.
If members have concerns about other members there is an anonomous box set up in the bathrooms for such concerns about other members or the tavern as a whole. So as to allow concerns to be looked into as appropriate by either the tavern or the proper authorities. Again everybody within the tavern are members, not just so stranger allowed in off the street. They must be invited in some way by another member in order to attend or seek membership.
The issue of real slavery is not for the tavern to debate. That is an issue left for those within the 24/7 TPE M/s relationship to address between themselves. If it is a good or bad bype of relationship the tavern cannot judge, except in how it affects the tavern as a whole. The dangers involved in entering into such a relationship should have been considered prior to entering into such a relationship. And if such a relationship is truely dangerous to the parties involved I would hope one or the other part would have enough common sense to leave such a relationship. Again concerns can be placed in the anonomous suggestion box in the bathroom. But again that is not for the tavern to decide whether or not such relationship is good or bad except when it relates to the tavern and potential liability and safety of all members. The tavern can always revoke membership if necessary or refer to the proper authorities to investigate any alligations accordingly.
I am personally not sadistic, but I have been to places where sadists and machosists have gathered. I have also seen some strong whippings and floggings accordingly. Some that I would never even consider coming close to when punishing a slave of my own. I do know that there are those that are Sadists and Machosists out there that like that part of the lifestyle (inflicting and/or receiving pain). I do not judge them based on what I would consider abusive under normal circumstances. Given though the circumstances and the fact that safewords were in use and someone outside of them checked on them periodically at times I would not consider it abuse. Furthermore when safewords were used or concerns raised as to safety both participants were able to comply to general requests of the other and others around them.
Who am I to judge whether what they were doing is right or wrong? So long as safety is paramount to the extent possable given the lifestyle we have chosen to live within then it is does not become a concern of the tavern. One should not judge based on personal biases. This does not mean that one should not check up on people or ignore what is happening around them. Safety is always a concern. So long a safety issues have been met then there should not be an issue. The tavern is there to provide a safe environment. The use of tags is supposed to signal a variation of rules. Thus additional waivers may need to be signed accordingly if need by. And yes all variations of the rules are recorded accordingly.
So if a slave is ordered or a free woman/man wants to play in a play room without condoms. Well guess what, first they must sign a waiver for the variance of the condom at all times rule. It will be recorded. Otherwise it will be a violation of the tavern rules. If one party (man/woman) does and the other party (man/woman as appropriate) doesn't, then the rule is a condom must be worn. Just like if one wants to go above a light punishment in the dungeon area. An additional waiver must be signed by both parties. This can be done ahead of time or at anytime prior to. If someone is worried whether or not a waiver has been signed or not then they can check with the tavern to make sure. But if the tavern or anyone catches someone or anybody is caught violating the rules then either it will be corrected immediately or if necessary appropriate actions will be taken.
As for the issue of pretenders...
Pretenders can and always do crop up eventually. One can only screen applicants and members so far. I will not personally go to everybody's home and say You are and You are not a true master/mistress/slave, gorean/not gorean. One does not have to be Gorean to come to the tavern. The goal of the tavern is to bring those that are within the lifestyle together, based on Gorean principles and beliefs so as to have common interests and comradere. The tavern is not meant to be a swingers club nor a dungeon. There are those facilities at the tavern available for those purposes but that is not what the tavern is meant to be about.
As for slaves being available in general, I would like to point out that slaves could always show up and there not be enough masters and mistresses for them to serve. Due to the imbalance of slaves to masters/mistresses this is highly unlikely. But the imbalance can go both ways. Since the most likely imbalance will probably be in the slave department one would not consider opening such an establishment without one or two slaves or more available guarenteed for serving/entertaining purposes. Since the dungeon and play areas are not the primary focus of the tavern they are not guarenteed to have slaves or anybody else for these areas. They are on an "if there is someone available" basis. So if you seek to use those areas on a guarenteed basis then I suggest you bring your own in that case.
And yes this means that if 20 slaves all showed up without any masters/mistresses to serve, then I and my slave would try our best to accomodate their needs to serve in whatever capacity. Yes it would be a burden on me in this case but I'm up to it. And if 20 masters/mistresses showed up with only my slave and I there then we or more likely she would try and accomodate their desires. In ideal situations there would always be a balance but this is the real world, thus it is highly unlikely. But given the real world it is generally harder to find those willing to serve in such a capacity than those wanting to be served. And if there is an imbalance then I could always order my slave to serve in areas that are in demand accordingly. Where she serves is up to myself as her owner. And as her owner I reserve that right. Any issues that might arise out of her being my slave and me being her owner is between us. Unless of course it becomes an issue to other members of the tavern accordingly those issues should be addressed as appropriate.
When I said the tavern would allow those to be masters/mistresses/slaves for at least a short time, I was referring to those that do not live the lifestyle on a 24/7 basis. For whatever their reasons this does not mean they are not truely masters, mistresses, or slaves. This also does not mean they are truely masters, mistresses, or slaves either whether they live a 24/7 lifestyle or not. Being 24/7 or not 24/7 does not mean one is or is not what they claim to be. Just like claiming to be Gorean does not make it so.
Whatever the case may be the tavern is for those that seek to come together to be able to come together in a M/s dynamic. And for those that truely live the lifestyle 24/7 to also come together and share that dynamic which they have achieved with others. That is the purpose of the tavern.
It seems that when we come together in our private little weekend outings that nobody complains. But try to give something more permanent and everybody tries to shoot it down. Why is that? My last thread that I started was just supposed to be about places where we could come together that people knew about and would like to post about and then who to get into contact with to know more. Instead it became about my tavern down in Orlando. I left the thread because it failed in its purpose and became all about my tavern. It was hijacked to be honest. This thread luckily was hijacked after it accomplished its goal.
Now if you don't want to come to my tavern that is fine. If you do that is fine, you will be more than welcome. My goal is to bring together those Goreans that want to get together beyond the little weekend outings or backyard BBQs. If my tavern accomplishes that goal then all the better. If it does not then so be it, at least I gave it a try in my opinion. If you don't like the format then fine start your own, build your own gathering. My tavern is my attempt to build my own gathering beyond my circle of friends. But my personal goal is to bring Goreans together to share with each other in our various ways.
And I further believe that through education and by living as an example. There are alot more people who although they might not consider themselves Gorean, could at least relate to Gorean principles, beliefs, and protocols if they got past the stigma of what they hear about Goreans in general. Maybe I'm not the best person out there to provide such an example. Nor the best to educate others about Gor in general. But by bringing other Goreans together at least it would provide a wider selection and more diversity, even if we may have differing opinions on things. And that is also a goal of the tavern.
Tavern Master
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RE: Finally... - 
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