RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant?

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RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant?

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RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 4/4/2009 9:44:37 PM

allyfae

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I am in my third Poly relationship. Feelings of jealousy at least on some level are normal. For me, the key is to evaluate precicely what is making me jealous. If it is my own insecurity, then I address that, reminding myself that I am good enough else he wouldn't want me to begin with. If it is an imbalance in time or energy spent, then I try to resolve it among all of us. In one case, it was honestly that he was obsessively in love with his other, and while not willing to part with me, I would never measure up in his eyes. When that is the case, the best thing you can do is leave. My new Sir seems to do a good job of balancing all of us. I just have to remind myself that as the newest, I will not be priveledged with all of the affection his others have earned.

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)

Post #: 21

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 4/6/2009 12:07:16 AM

MrRodgers

Posts: 3192
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

I'm having a problem understanding this concept of 'jealous person', in that either-or kinda way . . . . . .

For example, I tend to think I'm much much less given to jealousy than 'normal', 'typical' females . . . . . . . But I'm certainly more given to moments of insecurity than those so confident that they never feel jealousy . . . .

So, is poly really a possibility for the middle folks who are neither screamingly confident nor whisperingly insecure? Or is it just more like fantasy material?

Best,
The Demon, Kia

No it is not a fantasy. I have never had a serious problem with jealousy but at the first sign, I'll ask on what basis does one feel any jealousy ? When one points out the success of the poly so much becomes obvious that almost all feelings of jealousy are unfounded...there is no basis.

It would require the most egregious favoritism of one...for one to take any action from feeling jealous.

While all should be equal in the eyes and the heart of Master/Mistress, if your jealousy could be described as instinctive...then you are NOT for poly.

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 22

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 4/20/2009 9:57:27 AM

GYPZYQUEEN

Posts: 730
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline

Jealousy is a normal response based on personal experiance..
One often does NOT go into a poly situation free from past experiance which may trigger ingrained anger..fear...and behavioural patterns and beliefs..
practiced for years..

FEELINGS are valid because they are yours and coming from somewhere
Just as I would not profess to assign my sub/slave personal opinions I would not assign them feelings such as "happy happy joy joy for you" each day..

A strong POLY home is lead by attention to feelings..
and more so BEFORE a new addition enters..
how do the subs fit?...compliment..enhance the home?
How will harmony be achieved? stability?is it a sisterhood?family?
is there a "position" system?

If someone is feeling jealous then it is coming from somewhere and NOT
wrong..or unsolvable...
jealousy is FEAR..fear of loss..fear of less..
IF it can be discussed and addressed strength can be built in the home..
strong links
If it cannot be resolved then the WHOLE system needs to be reviewed
not just the jealous one..
If one is jealous a lot then there may be a DEEP underlying issue that needs
processing before entering a poly situation
or
the DOMME may need to look at reasons the home was set up this way..
was it for more holes to plug? ) or
to build a loving cohesive unit based on mutual respect,infinate love,
warmth and fulfilling of deep desires.

< Message edited by GYPZYQUEEN -- 4/20/2009 10:01:40 AM >

(in reply to MrRodgers)

Post #: 23

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 4/20/2009 10:06:52 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4035
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

So, when I read thru polyamory discussions & hear that there is a belief that jealousy is 'wrong' or that there are people who never feel jealousy, I'm having a hard time understanding how that works . . . . . .

The best way to look at it is how complemetary they are to each other. Most of the time, jealousy is a "wrong" fit for polyamorous realtionships. The emotion (as you mentioned) either is or isn't, and that presence makes it a dire difficulty to deal with in polyamory (certain constructs may work more easily than others).

This does not mean there cannot be exceptions or that sometimes these things can be worked through. It's like saying that, normally, 5'3" is the "wrong" height to become an NBA player. It doesn't mean all people who are 5'3" are "wrong" or that there cannot be exceptions, just that the fit is not entirely conducive, for the most part.

< Message edited by NihilusZero -- 4/20/2009 10:07:41 AM >

_____________________________

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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 24

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 4/20/2009 11:08:35 AM

RavenMuse

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I am one of those who have never felt what others describe as feeling jealous and where those feelings have come up in a girl that has been compatable enough to have a long term relationship with Me. Once I tracked down the actual 'problem' it has been insecurity and once that insecurity was dealt with the 'jealousy' disappeared.

I don't see jealousy as normal, not to Me nor to compatable Poly folks.... It seems 'normal' for Mono's but again they say jealousy I say insecurity... but that doesn't matter because those are not compatable and thus not going to be involved with Me. I recon if they stopped justifying it as 'normal' and dealt with the insecurity issues they wouldn't have the problem but they don't want to and it is no skin off My nose!

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 25

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 4/20/2009 11:11:46 AM

LaTigresse

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I don't get jealous really. Annoyed if I feel I am being ignored when I want attention, amused when watching someone I care about have fun with another sometimes. Jealousy seems to be too closely related to insecurity, which is something I rarely feel.

_____________________________

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 26

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 5/13/2009 6:26:02 AM

xangelbratx

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Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline

Ive just been in the situation where i have been released from my Sir of 17 months for my refusal to be able to enter a poly relationship with Him and another of his choosing.......i couldnt handle the sharing of him...ok if i dont know about it...certainly different for me to be in the know although i respect his decision for acknowledging me....
Is this classed as jealousy? Yes, undoubtedly......but i wont be made to feel ashamed or guilty for feeling this jealousy...for me personally..until i met Him i didnt feel at all...i didnt laugh, i didnt cry...i just didnt feel and although i would rather it wasnt jealousy and anger that i did feel i am rather glad that i now have the ability to be able to...dont know how to handle them at all but hey, cant have it all!! its just a shame that my ability to feel cost me what was otherwise a wonderful, fantastic relationship

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it is not about how much you can take from me...it is about how much i am willing to give you....

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)

Post #: 27

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 5/13/2009 9:21:30 AM

beltainefaerie

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Jealousy, like all emotions, is natural when it occurs. I am hardly ever jealous and when I am it always in a "I want that too" sort of way and never in a "I don't want you to have that" sort of way. I was surprised one day to find that I was jealous that my lovers had seen a movie without me. It is generally silly stuff with me. Anyway, we work it out when it happens. My girl tends to get jealous more. Some people het angry more. Some people are just happier in general. i don't think we were all given all emotional tendencies equally. I don't think there is anything wrong with people who feel jealous or people that don't ever get jealous. The problems occur when people have emotional outbursts and can't deal with them or when one partner is crying out for help or trying to express their needs and the other partner(s) aren't listening and helping. In relationships, everyone striving to help one another through issues and where everyone is striving for better communication, jealousy (or whatever else) is not an insurmountable obstacle. My 2 cents anyway.

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)

Post #: 28

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 5/13/2009 10:19:19 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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You're right, Kia. We feel what we feel, and no emotion is inherently wrong. It is also true that many folks manage to have healthy, happy poly existences despite the occasional whimper or scream of jealousy cropping up in one or more of the parties. This is -normal-. It is -normal- for human beings to feel protective of the people and things that they cherish. Like morning sickness in relation to pregnancy (the worse the morning sickness, the more hormonally stable the pregnancy), jealousy can mark a strong emotional attachment to the family, and shouldn't be ignored or dismissed as "bad". Instead, the goal of the poly household should be in figuring out two things:

1. What is triggering the territorial/protective mode?
2. Can something be done to restore equilibrium to the people who are struggling with territorial/protective issues?

If the answer to the 1st question shows something that can be worked through and resolved, then the focus needs to be on doing the work to stabilize the family, whether the reason is a newcomer to the family or behaviors that have shaken the established roles within that family or outside stressors that are battering everyone.

If the answer to the 2nd question is "No", then it becomes prudent to consider whether it is possible and healthy for everyone to keep trying for the poly structure, new addition, or whatever the trigger is. People have to be willing to find the issue and do the work, or the relationship (not just poly, but -any- relationship) is not going to survive its' transition. If the answer is "yes", and everyone is willing to get on board, accept and embrace their own feelings and their contributions to how others are perceiving the relationship, and the attendant feelings that arise from those perceptions, then the relationship and the individuals all have a chance for some amazing growth.

I think the thing that has been so disappointing for -me- in these forums is the number of times that people who come with questions are told that their situation will "never" work, and that they should just give up. To me, the combination of denying feelings and reinforcing that "these type of relationships" are "doomed to fail" encourages the idea that poly is non-viable, even for the people who really -want- to give it a solid shot.

To address one of your other comments:

quote:

So, when I read thru polyamory discussions & hear that there is a belief that jealousy is 'wrong' or that there are people who never feel jealousy, I'm having a hard time understanding how that works . . . . . .

I can honestly say that I don't feel jealousy. I may feel some insecurity on occasion (especially if there is a great deal of change very quickly--despite being a Chaos Magnet, I still find that level of change difficult to process), or may be particularly irritated or even angry about how something is being managed in the household or about a person's or people's behavior(s), but jealousy isn't something that is inherent in my nature. I don't know why -- and I -do- know that it is uncommon enough to nearly be considered 'abnormal'. In some ways, I consider it a social flaw, since the absence of jealousy in me seems to exacerbate feelings, in some people, that I must not care for them as deeply as I say that I do. It is possible to have a person who truly doesn't feel jealousy, but I certainly wouldn't make that a prerequisite for a successful poly household, especially since I know, from experience, that it is possible to be a -very- jealous, acquisitive person and still manage to make a profoundly satisfying poly partner... otherwise, someone I love dearly would NEVER have survived in our household. The fact that xhe has, for 15 years, is a testament to the fact that jealousy does not have to limit the capacity to fit into a poly household (even if you're not in what we call the "origin" group, which some would call a "primary", which xhe isn't).

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to AlexandraLynch)

Post #: 29

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 5/13/2009 2:27:08 PM

porcelaine

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you admitted your feelings and were made to feel as if you were the problem because of them. this is one of the major reasons why people usually keep pangs of jealousy to themselves. they fear the kind of backlash you received. for the record this is normal, you're in a situation and human relations inspire a host of emotions. they aren't always pleasant and complicated situations don't mesh together as neatly as we'd like. if you begin beating yourself up because you're human and capable of experiencing feelings that may be good and bad at times, you'll set a bad precedent in place and begin to deny then in the long run.

it isn't wrong to feel at all, but what we do with them that matters. how we permit our feelings to affect our behavior and interactions as well. poly is a unique dynamic in a society that celebrates monogamy. you'd have to be a pretty unique person never to feel some pangs from time to time. some can engage this way without a hint of discomfort. don't feel bad if you do not fall in that camp. i believe they are the exceptions, not the rule. good luck.

porcelaine

(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 30

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 5/15/2009 4:41:42 AM

ScooterTrash

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Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
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I would be careful not to confuse jealousy and envy. The way I see it, being Envious is "I want that too", while Jealousy is more "No, you can't have that it's mine". Fine line here, but in all actuality a world of difference. I don't see so much of a problem with someone wanting something, I see more of a problem with someone not willing to share. Just my two cents with change.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
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(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 31

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 9/14/2009 3:40:18 PM

polybi108

Posts: 191
Joined: 11/26/2008
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jealousy is about feeling that you are not getting/having enough. So.. since all the poly groups on here are different, its impossible to predict how anyone would act, in some other situation.

I like the keristian model, in which everyone is rotated among all the participants, nightly, so there is no person controlling who is with whom. That at least eliminates part of the reasons for jealousy, although knowing that your wife or husband is with susie tonight, can be an interesting challenge but if you are with bill anyway, your attention is not on susie.

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)

Post #: 32

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 9/14/2009 4:54:52 PM

RavenMuse

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Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
Easy; we worked very hard at building security in our relationship, so there would be no fear that someone else could take this relationship from me. The only one that could end the relationship that he and I have is either me or him.

I know I have said you are a delightful girl before... but it bares repeating

From My perspective this hits the nail squarely on the head. I don't believe in the existence of 'jealousy' as an emotion in its own right.... I see it as merely a narrowly focused part of insecurity... namely a manifestation of the fear of loosing the person ..... "I have an emotional investment in him and I fear someone is going to take that away from me" = jealousy

I've never tolerated jealous behaviour, never gave it justification, never shrugged it off with "she's just the jealous type"... I've always treated it as insecurity and focused on, as kyra points out in KoM's household, building security in the relationship. Funny that jealousy has never been that much of a problem with any long term partner, not primary nor playpartner... when they are secure in what they have and know ONLY their actions or Mine are going to impact that, then the causal factors for 'jealousy' are simply not present.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to kyraofMists)

Post #: 33

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 9/15/2009 4:10:26 AM

allthatjaz

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In my past relationship of four years we included (within our household) a sub male and a sub female. I never felt any jealousy whatsoever and I think there are two reasons for that.
1. They were both more attentive to me than my partner (If they had to pick they would of chosen me)
2. I was not madly in love with my partner.

When I started my relationship with Stephen I spoke about poly and he was interested. Within poly I would always be Dominant as well as Stephen (Dom/Domme couple) We got in contact with a sub female that I already knew and we got together for a trial period. When he was out of town and closer to her house than mine, I would suggest he stayed with her and he did. To begin with there was absolutely no jealousy. As time went on (I am talking just weeks) it became obvious that she really liked him. She was younger and as far as I am concerned prettier than me. She told me that she was engaged to a vanilla but told Stephen she wanted a Dominant man as a partner. She told me she was very comfortably bi but told Stephen she really was not into females. He started getting constant text messages whilst I got none.
It very quickly started to cause a rift within our relationship and it was Stephen who very quickly nipped it in the bud by telling her it was not going to work.
Jealousy got in the way of anything developing between the two of us but I don't believe for a minute that it was an unreasonable jealousy.

I was talking to a poly family the other night. Out of the four of them (all switches) one of the guys is extremely good looking and they told me that every time they try to pull a 5th person in (always a female) that she will, bit by bit try to pull that one guy away from the others. They said they were seriously considering giving up on a 5th because of the negative emotions that always come with it.

Now I know that Stephen is not going to leave me. Perhaps that sounds a little arrogant or perhaps its because we have a love for each other that runs very deep. I still find it insulting and somewhat threatening when another female seems to think she can walk through our door and take my man by gradual manipulation. Its a horrible thing when you see another woman virtually orgasm every time he touches her but when I touch her she clamps up.
I would love to have a third and perhaps if I were sub in these situations I could deal with it better. Otherwise the only way its going to work for us is if she fancies me more than she fancies him.

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RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 9/15/2009 11:42:03 AM

Mistress250IS

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quote:

You are entitled to feel what you feel. Being honest about how you feel is the only way that the other person or people are going to know how you feel. If the other people involved do not acknowledge what you are feeling (whether based in fact or not) - then what is the point?

Agree...just as intrinsic value suggests - Inward; internal; hence, true; genuine; real; essential; inherent; not merely apparent or accidental; -- opposed to extrinsic; as, the intrinsic value of gold or silver; the intrinsic merit of an action; the intrinsic worth or goodness of a person.

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RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/5/2009 9:42:43 AM

JasonPr

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Lol, this is a really good perspective. Jealousy can be a balancing tool also. If you have 2 kids do u love 1 more than the other? Hell no. Maybe one is ok with less love and maybe the other is needy. On a lighter note, if 2 are needy...maybe they need more time together :P

(in reply to DagnyT)

Post #: 36

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/5/2009 3:04:44 PM

CaringandReal

Posts: 1391
Joined: 2/15/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Frankly, I'm a little weirded out about how jealousy gets discussed here in the Poly camp . . . . .

So, when I read thru polyamory discussions & hear that there is a belief that jealousy is 'wrong' or that there are people who never feel jealousy, I'm having a hard time understanding how that works . . . . . .

My actual experience with poly is very limited, but was instructive on just this issue; the other participants in the one poly relationship I've tried reported 'no jealousy' but acted jealous, & were unwilling to discuss . . . . For the record, I admitted to jealousy feelings & was treated like I was 'the problem' . . . . . . .

I'm very curious to hear what the posters here have to say about this . . . . . .

Best,
The Demon, Kia

I think the belief that jealousy is wrong probably comes from observations or reports that in some (lucky and skillful) poly situations, jealousy is not an issue. So, if it is not an issue with THOSE people, then there must be something wrong if it's present in MY situation, is how I imagine the thinking goes. This is probably an illogical connection. It's more likely not an issue in some situations because the mix of people/personalities is one that manages to keep jealousy at bay. The people are compatible with each other, have group skills, are not particularly possessive of their partners, whatever it happens to be. Without the right mix, perhaps that ideal situation would not be so idea, and individuals in it would be jealous.

That sounds like a very ugly scene: people being dishonest about their own jealousy but at the same time leaping upon you as a scapegoat when you were honest enough to admit to the feelings. I would be very, very angry if a game that childish were inflicted upon me. When people are dishonest about something in themselves it seems they jump all the more harshly on others who display the same trait. And you cannot point this out to them usually because they are in major deinal.

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(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 37

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/5/2009 4:27:08 PM

Acer49

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Frankly, I'm a little weirded out about how jealousy gets discussed here in the Poly camp . . . . .

I was raised by people who believed that some emotions were 'bad' or 'wrong', & that one should suppress / repress / avoid / ignore / deny / etc the 'bad / 'wrong' emotions . . . . . As an adult, dealing with the repercussions of this upbringing, I learned in therapy & etc that all emotions are 'normal' & are spontaneously generated as reactions to stimuli, that there are no 'bad' or 'wrong' emotions . . . . . It's what is done with one's emotions that is the crucial issue . ... .

So, when I read thru polyamory discussions & hear that there is a belief that jealousy is 'wrong' or that there are people who never feel jealousy, I'm having a hard time understanding how that works . . . . . .

My actual experience with poly is very limited, but was instructive on just this issue; the other participants in the one poly relationship I've tried reported 'no jealousy' but acted jealous, & were unwilling to discuss . . . . For the record, I admitted to jealousy feelings & was treated like I was 'the problem' . . . . . . .

I'm very curious to hear what the posters here have to say about this . . . . . .

Best,
The Demon, Kia

Can you give me an example of where the emotion of jealousy turns out to be positive? And the self realization that you have it is not a viable answer

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Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
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(in reply to DemonKia)

Post #: 38

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/5/2009 4:40:27 PM

Acer49

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Joined: 8/7/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allyfae

I am in my third Poly relationship. Feelings of jealousy at least on some level are normal. For me, the key is to evaluate precicely what is making me jealous. If it is my own insecurity, then I address that, reminding myself that I am good enough else he wouldn't want me to begin with. If it is an imbalance in time or energy spent, then I try to resolve it among all of us. In one case, it was honestly that he was obsessively in love with his other, and while not willing to part with me, I would never measure up in his eyes. When that is the case, the best thing you can do is leave. My new Sir seems to do a good job of balancing all of us. I just have to remind myself that as the newest, I will not be priveledged with all of the affection his others have earned.

With all due respect, who ever told you that you must earn affection needs their head examined after they pull it out of their butt. Receiving affection is the same as breathing and should never have to be considered a privilage or something you must to earn

_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
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(in reply to allyfae)

Post #: 39

RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/5/2009 7:01:05 PM

david94015

Posts: 13
Joined: 9/3/2009
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I liked the insight of S&M (Steve and Maria) - i.e., when a 3rd joins a couple, there may be imbalance of affections between the members. If there was no imbalance, maybe the members had little or no interest in each other. Jealousy is an indication of how strong emotions are in the relationship. Instead of cursing the symptom, our family has been trying to address the causes of jealousy - how we each are reacting to each other. In my situation, we've all decided to take a "time out" of getting closer (& more intimate) until we can communicate with each other what each of us are feeling & what we hope our family will be in the future. We love each other & are not going to walk away from the family we want to have just because we have encountered the first of (probably) many "bumps" in the road. We understand that working out problems in a POLY relationship is much more complicated that that of a couple and as such will take more time to straighten things out.

check out this reference about fixing the refrigerator in xeromag:
http://www.xeromag.com/fvpolyrefrigerator.html

I like this discussion as it has given me much insight into my situation.

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lets communicate

(in reply to Acer49)

Post #: 40

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