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RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant?


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RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/12/2009 7:38:09 AM   
SirJ40


Posts: 157
Joined: 12/21/2008
Status: offline 		I tend to examine jealousy/envy issues from the viewpoint that there are no "wrong emotions".. it's what we do with or about them that can be harmful.
We always say that communication is the key.. and it is! Jealousy and envy are powerless emotions that can be faded away when open conversation, caring attention to everyone's needs, and honest discourse are present. Jealousy tends to stem from things like "I'm worried that this other situation will be better than or damage my situation".. talk to the others, let them alleviate your fears, and jealousy will fade, because the doubt or self-doubt will be removed (hopefully). Envy works very much the same.. if you see your others doing something that you'd like to experience, physically, emotionally, or related to dynamics...tell them! Ask for it! Certainly, it won't be identical, but since we care for each other, the concept of giving someone something that we give someone else freely shouldn't be all that difficult, and it should help with those issues. We have to remain realistic, however.. not every human interaction can be the same.. sometimes, as well, what we share between 2 can be different than what the other 2 share, yet be equally fulfilling. Finding the balance is part of the adventure that Poly is, and patience, understanding, and communication in honesty are critical.. they engender trust.. which is the big one.


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(in reply to david94015)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/12/2009 5:07:11 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Good post, as usual, CaringandReal, thank you . . . . I agree with your points . . . .

& the relationship situation was a lot more covert & unconscious & subtle than my brief description conveys, & there was much appearance of lots of communication & honesty & etc at first, but it turned out to be more of a facade than I was able to penetrate . .. . .

& the important thing was that I learned from the whole, & that I listened to my gut & left after giving it a sincere attempt & recognizing that it was a poor fit for my needs, desires, & etc . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal

I think the belief that jealousy is wrong probably comes from observations or reports that in some (lucky and skillful) poly situations, jealousy is not an issue. So, if it is not an issue with THOSE people, then there must be something wrong if it's present in MY situation, is how I imagine the thinking goes. This is probably an illogical connection. It's more likely not an issue in some situations because the mix of people/personalities is one that manages to keep jealousy at bay. The people are compatible with each other, have group skills, are not particularly possessive of their partners, whatever it happens to be. Without the right mix, perhaps that ideal situation would not be so idea, and individuals in it would be jealous.

That sounds like a very ugly scene: people being dishonest about their own jealousy but at the same time leaping upon you as a scapegoat when you were honest enough to admit to the feelings. I would be very, very angry if a game that childish were inflicted upon me. When people are dishonest about something in themselves it seems they jump all the more harshly on others who display the same trait. And you cannot point this out to them usually because they are in major deinal.




Acer49, thank you, that's a good point. Let me flesh out what I mean a bit more. When I said:

quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

I was raised by people who believed that some emotions were 'bad' or 'wrong', & that one should suppress / repress / avoid / ignore / deny / etc the 'bad / 'wrong' emotions . . . . . As an adult, dealing with the repercussions of this upbringing, I learned in therapy & etc that all emotions are 'normal' & are spontaneously generated as reactions to stimuli, that there are no 'bad' or 'wrong' emotions . . . . . It's what is done with one's emotions that is the crucial issue . ... .


Some amplification might be useful, so let me:

Emotions happen. They are chemical events that occur in response to stimuli external & internal. They are neither 'good' nor 'bad', they just are. In my book, the 'good', 'bad', 'better', 'worse' labels have more relevance when applied to the actions motivated by a given emotion.

& the problem with applying the various 'bad' labels to any given emotion is that 'normal' humans should be feeling a full range of emotions during the course of their ordinary lives, & that it is problematic / damaging / etc to deny / suppress / repress / avoid / ignore / etc emotions that are regularly surging thru one's system.

For example, in my youth I had 'anger issues' & one of the big fuels for that was all the unpleasant emotions I was suppressing / repressing / etc . . . . . To drain away some of that powerful rage it was necessary for me to start acknowledging, owning, & appropriately feeling & expressing all that emotion . . . . .

So. The point isn't that there is some value to characterizing jealousy as a 'good', it's that if it is coursing thru one's neural anatomy, it needs to be dealt with.

I suspect that a significant part of why those people I'd been in relationship with were so attached to not seeing their own jealousy stuff was precisely because they've attached all the 'bad', 'wrong' labels to their jealousy feelings. Most of us, most of the time, see ourselves as 'good' & there is a conflict then with attaching our 'good' selves to 'badness' . .. . . .



david94015, thank you for sharing that. That was very useful insight for me . . . . .


& SirJ40, we're on the same page. Thank you . . . . .

(in reply to SirJ40)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/14/2009 3:52:45 PM   
polybi108


Posts: 191
Joined: 11/26/2008
Status: offline 		jealousy is projection that there is not enough for ME.

Its the opposite of love.

My guess is that people who spent time feeling jealous are not up to the spiritual aspect of poly.

Of course, the setup can create jealousy or ameliorate it a lot.


(in reply to AlexandraLynch)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/30/2009 1:05:37 PM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Frankly, I'm a little weirded out about how jealousy gets discussed here in the Poly camp . . . . .

I was raised by people who believed that some emotions were 'bad' or 'wrong', & that one should suppress / repress / avoid / ignore / deny / etc the 'bad / 'wrong' emotions . . . . . As an adult, dealing with the repercussions of this upbringing, I learned in therapy & etc that all emotions are 'normal' & are spontaneously generated as reactions to stimuli, that there are no 'bad' or 'wrong' emotions . . . . . It's what is done with one's emotions that is the crucial issue . ... .

So, when I read thru polyamory discussions & hear that there is a belief that jealousy is 'wrong' or that there are people who never feel jealousy, I'm having a hard time understanding how that works . . . . . .

My actual experience with poly is very limited, but was instructive on just this issue; the other participants in the one poly relationship I've tried reported 'no jealousy' but acted jealous, & were unwilling to discuss . . . . For the record, I admitted to jealousy feelings & was treated like I was 'the problem' . . . . . . .

I'm very curious to hear what the posters here have to say about this . . . . . .

Best,
The Demon, Kia

quote:

jealousy


jealousy is a problem as you are creating an unhealthy enviorment for the people around you. Why would anyone desire to be the object of an illogical(assuming the jealousy was unfounded), undesired hurtful emotion?

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(in reply to DemonKia)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 10/31/2009 12:00:33 AM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4554
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49


quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

Frankly, I'm a little weirded out about how jealousy gets discussed here in the Poly camp . . . . .

I was raised by people who believed that some emotions were 'bad' or 'wrong', & that one should suppress / repress / avoid / ignore / deny / etc the 'bad / 'wrong' emotions . . . . . As an adult, dealing with the repercussions of this upbringing, I learned in therapy & etc that all emotions are 'normal' & are spontaneously generated as reactions to stimuli, that there are no 'bad' or 'wrong' emotions . . . . . It's what is done with one's emotions that is the crucial issue . ... .

So, when I read thru polyamory discussions & hear that there is a belief that jealousy is 'wrong' or that there are people who never feel jealousy, I'm having a hard time understanding how that works . . . . . .

My actual experience with poly is very limited, but was instructive on just this issue; the other participants in the one poly relationship I've tried reported 'no jealousy' but acted jealous, & were unwilling to discuss . . . . For the record, I admitted to jealousy feelings & was treated like I was 'the problem' . . . . . . .

I'm very curious to hear what the posters here have to say about this . . . . . .

Best,
The Demon, Kia

quote:

jealousy


jealousy is a problem as you are creating an unhealthy enviorment for the people around you. Why would anyone desire to be the object of an illogical(assuming the jealousy was unfounded), undesired hurtful emotion?


I apologise in advance as I haven't read the entire thread.... and Kia I also apologise if I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Acer I think that what Kia is saying is that an emotion in and of itself is neither good nor bad, positive or negative.  It is our reactions to that emotion and the actions we consciously take which can be good or bad (for want of a better term). 

It is possible to identify and acknowledge that you are feeling jealous and then make a choice to make space for that feeling within you without acting in a jealous way - any of the mindfulness practises would be fabulous to use at these times.  Identifying the emotion and not acting on it can be very empowering and could also be a catalyst for a discussion with the other members of the family to discuss things further.

Hmmm do I have a point to my post????  Jealousy does not necessarily mean bad.


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(in reply to Acer49)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 11/1/2009 3:30:52 AM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		Yeah, Wanders, that is accurate, & I agree with you about learning to detach . . . ..

& Acer49, the part I've bolded, below, is problematic for me cuz it seems to imply that jealous feelings are consciously chosen, & that's only gonna be true sometimes. Plenty of times feelings are spontaneous responses to external stimuli & / or our own thoughts about & our feelings in response to external stimuli .. . . My experience is that feelings happen; it's the behaviors one engages in out of those emotions where choice enters . . . . .

In the situation in my OP I did not consciously choose to enter into a situation where someone would be jealous of my interactions with another, that's what developed as the relationship evolved . . . . .

& I left as I realized what was going on & the accompanying resistance the others had to being honest about their own evident feelings. A resistance that I peg on their beliefs that 'jealousy is always bad & evidence of an insecure (& thus implicitly inferior) person' . . . . .

quote:

ORIGINAL: wandersalone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Acer49

jealousy is a problem as you are creating an unhealthy enviorment for the people around you. Why would anyone desire to be the object of an illogical(assuming the jealousy was unfounded), undesired hurtful emotion?


I apologise in advance as I haven't read the entire thread.... and Kia I also apologise if I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Acer I think that what Kia is saying is that an emotion in and of itself is neither good nor bad, positive or negative.  It is our reactions to that emotion and the actions we consciously take which can be good or bad (for want of a better term). 

It is possible to identify and acknowledge that you are feeling jealous and then make a choice to make space for that feeling within you without acting in a jealous way - any of the mindfulness practises would be fabulous to use at these times.  Identifying the emotion and not acting on it can be very empowering and could also be a catalyst for a discussion with the other members of the family to discuss things further.

Hmmm do I have a point to my post????  Jealousy does not necessarily mean bad.



(in reply to wandersalone)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 11/13/2009 6:41:54 AM   
favesclava


Posts: 1570
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		i knew He was poly when we met and didnt have a problem with it. met His other slave and enjoyed it very much. then i fell in love for the first time and now well, its a constant battle. that He loves me i know .that i will never be released i know it to my soul. that He finds me beautiful and very desirable i also know. yet there's times i cry burning tears because another was kissed or used.
quote:

you are all "supposed" to be in love then i don't think there should be any jealousy because if you truly love someone then you just want the people you in love to be happy no matter what the cost.....

that is the cost of this love i have for Him. that it hurts so deep to know He's sharing life with another . and i keep trying to understand , to accept, to love Him for who He is . All of Him.if He changed then it wouldnt be the same man right? He loves girls. all kinds of girls. it makes Him happy. i NEED him to be happy . sometimes i dont know what upsets me more the feeling itself or the fact that i feel like i have failed Master .
i keep trying , i keep talking to Him. He's patient. one day it will be ok.

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(in reply to AlexandraLynch)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 12/13/2009 5:49:22 PM   
Katrina26


Posts: 48
Joined: 12/13/2009
Status: offline 		The opposite of jealousy is Compersion

Compersion: describe feeling pleasure or joy because one's romantic partner is experiencing pleasure or joy, even if the source of their pleasure is other than yourself

So, the only solution i think to overcoming jealousy is to cultivate feelings of compersion.

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 12/13/2009 8:23:00 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 5959
Joined: 6/26/2005
Status: online 		I'm not poly but in my last relationship I was basically forced into a poly relationship. It did not go well at all to say the least and that's putting it politely.

There was lots of jealousy and like you I was made to feel as if it was wrong and bad and just downright immoral and evil. I was an awful person and slave.

My own feelings are though that jealousy is a completely normal emotion like every other emotion is completely normal.

It's what you do with that emotion that counts.

I am always in disbelief when I hear people say they don't get jealous. I just can't seem to figure out how they shut off that normal emotion that is wired into our brains.

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 12/13/2009 8:27:56 PM   
GoddessImaginos


Posts: 1493
Joined: 8/5/2009
From: A small blue planet near Alpha Centauri
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Katrina26

The opposite of jealousy is Compersion

Compersion: describe feeling pleasure or joy because one's romantic partner is experiencing pleasure or joy, even if the source of their pleasure is other than yourself

So, the only solution i think to overcoming jealousy is to cultivate feelings of compersion.


My Husband is like this, a good, kind Man who *LOVES* the idea of sharing Me because of the pleasure He believes it will give Me and thus give us both. Thank you; I hadn't realized there was a name for it.
Me, however.. understands the gist of these posts, has been bullyragged into accepting a poly arrangement when it didn't make Me happy, lost a marriage because of it, and would still rather not share My Man now - too many ghosts, you see, although that being said, doesn't mean I don't believe in polyamory - I know personally too many good people who live it, love it, and make it work. It's just not for Me.. at least, not yet.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 12/13/2009 8:35:18 PM   
chellekitty


Posts: 3923
Joined: 3/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder 

I am always in disbelief when I hear people say they don't get jealous. I just can't seem to figure out how they shut off that normal emotion that is wired into our brains.



i am not a jealous person...if i feel jealous it's a secondary emotion...and usually the emotion behind it is fear...a lot of what i feel is based on fear...and typically self-centered fear...so if i can get past that the jealousy is like nothing...

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RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 12/15/2009 7:30:26 PM   
PrincessofFire


Posts: 13
Joined: 7/14/2008
Status: offline 		My daddy and I are working on my "jealousy."

While I believe jealousy is a normal emotion, like most of our emotions, I believe that how it is handled can either be harmful or for the better. My daddy isn't working on it with me because he believes that jealousy is a bad thing, in fact, he finds it flattering. We are working on it though because I understand that if I cannot learn how to live with it, I will not actually be able to work a healthy relationship until I do...

I realize I am a little late on these posts, but I like your question!

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"I was put in this world to take care of you, as much as you were meant in your own way to take care of me." _My daddy

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 12/16/2009 3:39:14 PM   
DemonKia


Posts: 5521
Joined: 10/13/2007
From: Chico, Nor-Cali
Status: offline 		FR, after continuing read thru

Jealousy, like any other emotion (such as, say, fear), seems to be both a set of electro-chemical events that pours thru a person's mind in response to external & internal stimuli, & something that people want to control, even eliminate . . . . .

In the cases of both fear & jealousy, it is my experience that a lot of people engage in denying / avoiding / ignoring / suppressing / repressing / displacing / etc, rather than actually dealing with those uncomfortable / unpleasant feelings.

I have this feeling that feelings are supposed to be felt, that feeling an emotion is an important step to 'dealing with it' . .. . Similarly, that admitting having a feeling is a significant catalyst to 'dealing' . .. . .

&, yeah, I'll now trust my gut when it twinges at someone's pronouncement of 'not being jealous' & then that person is showing outward 'symptoms of jealousy' . .. . . .

This thread & the discussion therein has been excellent for helping me figure this stuff out for myself.

Thanks to everyone who's participated so far. & please do chime in with more if one feels moved to do so .. . . . (I love 'zombie' threads, lol . .. . )

(in reply to PrincessofFire)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 12/17/2009 8:08:07 AM   
lally2


Posts: 2618
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DemonKia

I'm having a problem understanding this concept of 'jealous person', in that either-or kinda way . . . . . .

For example, I tend to think I'm much much less given to jealousy than 'normal', 'typical' females . . . . . . . But I'm certainly more given to moments of insecurity than those so confident that they never feel jealousy . . . .

So, is poly really a possibility for the middle folks who are neither screamingly confident nor whisperingly insecure? Or is it just more like fantasy material?

Best,
The Demon, Kia


i dont think im screamingly jealous and not all that whisperingly insecure, neither am i unconfident but i can have my moments like anyone and i do think those things go together very often.

i was in a poly situation that kinda evolved. it took some readjusting of where i was and what relationship i thought i was in. i tried to engage my not very jealous personality and i tried to handle any insecurities that developed but i didnt do a very good job of it in the end.

i do think its about the people involved and how they handle it. i do think everyone has to be on board with it and i think it needs to be all done openly, honestly and the Dominant needs to have a very strong agenda. he needs to find subs who are at least open to the whole thing and who are similar in personality and interests so that theyre relationship isnt entirely focused around the M of the house.

i agree that the people involved need to be open, not too insecure, not inclined to jealousy - i do thnk i would try it again, i do like the idea of it. i like the idea of having a sis, that we can share our man and cuddle him together. but it would have to be with someone like persephone whose in a poly, knows where shes at and is bloody funny.



_____________________________

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(in reply to DemonKia)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 1/18/2010 10:55:47 PM   
kuriouswitch


Posts: 325
Joined: 6/17/2008
Status: offline 		I don't really think that jealousy is an emotion in and of itself, it's a symptom. Usually there are feelings of fear or envy or a sense of a lack of self if that makes sense. "Jealousy is an insecurity in yourself" as Daddy likes to say. Being possessive and saying, "this is my Daddy/Master" or "this is my wife, and over there is my babygirl" are okay. But I don't think jealousy in itself is bad, just how you react to it, do you throw a fit until you get your way? Or do you sit down with everyone involved and try to find the root and find a solution?  

(in reply to DemonKia)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 1/19/2010 6:08:06 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GYPZYQUEEN

Jealousy is a normal response based on personal experiance..
One often does NOT go into a poly situation free from past experiance which may trigger ingrained anger..fear...and behavioural patterns and beliefs.. 
practiced for years..

FEELINGS are valid because they are yours and coming from somewhere
Just as I would not profess to assign my sub/slave personal opinions I would not assign them feelings  such as  "happy happy joy joy for you"  each day..

A strong POLY home is lead by attention to feelings..
and more so BEFORE a new addition enters..
how do the subs fit?...compliment..enhance the home?
How will harmony be achieved? stability?is it a sisterhood?family?
is there a "position" system?

If someone is feeling jealous then it is coming from somewhere and NOT
wrong..or unsolvable...
jealousy is FEAR..fear of loss..fear of less..
IF it can be discussed and addressed strength can be built in the home..
strong links
If it cannot be resolved then the WHOLE system needs to be reviewed
not just the jealous one..
If one is jealous a lot then there may be a DEEP underlying issue that needs
processing before entering a poly situation
or
the DOMME may need to look at reasons the home was set up this way..
was it for more holes to plug?  ) or
to build a loving cohesive unit based on mutual respect,infinate love,
warmth and fulfilling of deep desires.

That all makes sense to me.  Right now, I am looking for my first poly situation.  I remember it well the precise point where I realized I might be cut out for poly.  When my last Sir & I were together, his ex-wife came back & was trying to "nose in."  At that point, I realized I would not be jealous if we shared him & I even told him so.  Eventually, he told her to buzz off.  But the point is, from that point on I realized, I really am not the jealous type.  To me, jealousy is a symptom of something deeper.....usually fear or envy....fear of being displaced & losing him to another, fear of "not enough love left for me" (a monogamistic point of view), attention envy (I would rather have quality than quantity here), seeing the other woman sheerly as competition and not loving her as a sister.....it could be any number of things.  Bottom line, I think jealousy is a symptom of something deeper and needs to be looked into for where it's coming from, not just passed off as negativity.

_____________________________

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An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to GYPZYQUEEN)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 1/20/2010 12:40:12 PM   
Tamoko


Posts: 29
Joined: 1/17/2010
Status: offline 		In my past 5 years of being poly, I've experienced, both directly and indirectly (talking to other poly people/couples/groups/etc) that jealousy is natural. It happens. All animals get territorial. even if you can intellectually KNOW that your partner is in a good place with their other and you are happy for that, deep down in your lizard brain ancient neurons are firing *MINE*.

The poly people I know and hang around like a word for this situation : Compersion. Its feeling happy and fulfilled when your partner is with another. It hard, really hard to get into that headspace. Some people take years, others struggle with it their entire relationship.

Peel back the layers of jealousy, and it usually becomes clear that its a flag that you're feeling a need that isn't being met. Spend some time thinking about what that need is and whether its reasonable to expect your partner to be responsible for it.

(in reply to sweetsub1957)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 1/20/2010 1:36:09 PM   
MastersMaiden


Posts: 51
Joined: 7/17/2007
Status: offline 		Im really glad the OP started this thread, as W/we have been interested to learn more about the dynamics of Polygamy, and i have some jealousy issues to be worked on  before we do it. However, reading about the different viewpoints has definately given me some food for thought, and has helped me clarify some of my feelings. Thanks everyone who shared!!!

(in reply to Tamoko)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 1/20/2010 10:43:49 PM   
BratAli19


Posts: 28
Joined: 1/15/2008
Status: offline 		not to hijack this or anyhing, but i would be curious to see wht the other side of this option would be, (i.e. the NEW one being added not wanting to step on the first's toes?)

(in reply to AlexandraLynch)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Jealousy, Normal or Aberrant? - 1/22/2010 4:51:58 PM   
xxownedslavexx


Posts: 5
Joined: 1/22/2010
Status: offline 		BratAli - I have been on both sides of that equation. First being the newby and now being the one that has already been trained. The couple that I was brought in with made it quite clear that if either was not happy with what went on - I was gone, I was given ground rules from the start and made sure they were never broken and tried to make them both happy.
In my current relationship I have had a much harder time with the jealousness and also feeling very insecure. In this relationship there are no rules that have not been broken. There is to be no difference between she and i and what we get attentionwise in all forms...... and that is hard to handle.

(in reply to BratAli19)
Profile   Post #: 60
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