Why does Gor raise so many hackles?

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Why does Gor raise so many hackles?

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Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/1/2006 10:07:56 PM

Arpig

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I have noticed that the topic of Gorean lifestyle tends to evoke highly visceral reactions in people, especially those outside of it. And i wonder why that is...is it something in the basic philosphies that evoke this response, or is it something in the attitudes of those who do practice the Gorean way?
Just to make it clear, i am not a Gorean, I have not read the all books, (I started reading one a long while back and it failed to hold my interest), and i for one do not find myself having such a harsh reaction.
I am posting this here because I am interested in what Goreans think the reason is.

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/1/2006 10:29:18 PM

RavenofPK

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One word.

Fear.

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/1/2006 10:33:20 PM

Arpig

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Fear?
Sorry, but i see absolutely nothing fearful in the Gorean lifestyle, perhaps you could elaborate.
What do you think people fear about the gorean lifestyle, as opposed to any other non-Gor-based TPE lifestyle?

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/1/2006 10:40:53 PM

IronBear

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I asked this question on two separate forums in two different sites, the consensus I received was:

· Goreans appear Arrogant/Overbearing.
· Goreans seem to believe that they are right and the rest are wrong.
· Goreans make the rest of the M/s, D/s and BDSM community feel that they (the Goreans) are far above them (the rest).
· A Gorean Master is likely to woo your sub/slave away.
· Goreans are so damned scary.

It is by no means a large cross section but just a small sample.

Following that line of thought, here are my views on a point-to-point basis, which are as always my personal view and by no means to be seen as a definitive view of the majority of Gorean Lifestylers.

Goreans appear Arrogant/Overbearing:
This is more the case of being secure in ourselves, who we are, and self-confidence.

Goreans seem to believe that they are right and the rest are wrong:
If we are talking about matters Gorean, then the odds are that we are right, especially in our lifestyle.

Goreans make the rest of the M/s, D/s and BDSM community feel that they (the Goreans) are far above them (the rest):
The Gorean Lifestyle is part of the M/s (Master~Mistress/slave) Lifestyle. It is not a part of D/s or in fact the majority of BDSM Lifestyle. Goreans by nature are involved with the B&D (Bondage and Discipline) aspects (A slave is in bondage to her Owner, and she may well be Disciplined for her errors and failing to be pleasing). Individual Gorean Free men and Free Women may, with or without their property (slaves) enjoy in participating in some S & M activities as well as other Kink areas for their recreation. I.e. We are not BDSMers but some of us enjoy doing some BDSM. Thus our attitudes stem not from a feeling of superiority, but from self knowledge, Confidence and our High Standards and expectations of ourselves and our property.

A Gorean Master is likely to woo your sub/slave away:
Actually no. It’s more likely to be the case that a sub/slave after seeing how a particular Master or Mistress (Gorean or non Gorean) acts etc that it is they who may in fact wish to jump ship as it were. I’m not saying that it would never happen for we are all human after all and I have no doubt that Goreans have wood deliberately a girl from another collar.

Goreans are so damned scary:
In matters of Protocol, Honour, Integrity, Courage, Loyalty and Duty are concerned, yes we are touchy and if they are called into question we can be a damned scary group.

Again, these are my views and may not suit or agree with any other

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/1/2006 11:20:35 PM

Arpig

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I was hoping you would respond IronBear, since you seem to have a level head about things.
I will give my take/reaction to the points you brought up.

quote:

Goreans appear Arrogant/Overbearing:
This is more the case of being secure in ourselves, who we are, and self-confidence.

I have not found most of those who identify themselves as goreans to be all that much more arrogant or overbearing than the rest of us on here, and the few who do strike me that way do not, to my eye at least, do so from a sense of self-confidence, rather from a defensive point, as if they are desperate to defend their choice. but perhaps those would be the players who do not adopt the whole philosophy

quote:

Goreans seem to believe that they are right and the rest are wrong

This I have noticed, a lot of Goreans do seem to project the attitude that the Gorean way is THE way, and that can indeed explain why they evoke a negative response. I suspect if more Gorean masters had your accepting attitude towards non-Goreans this particular impression would be less widely held. While it is evident from your posts and your website that you do believe that this philosophy is the correct one, you do not come across as a prostelyte, and i suspect that may be the real key point, the unease which some Goreans masters seem to exhibit with their choice, which they manifest by attempting to convince outsiders of the rightness of their philosophy, rather than simply living their lives modelled after their chosen ideal, and letting their behaviour speak for itself.

quote:

Goreans make the rest of the M/s, D/s and BDSM community feel that they (the Goreans) are far above them (the rest)

Y
ou raise a good point about BDSM not being the defining element of Gorean relationships, and perhaps it is the fact that there is an underlying philosophical basis for the lifestyle that non-Goreans find disconcerting. Since Gorean masters hold themselves, at least in theory, to a pretty high and strict standard, those who have no such aim could percieve it as somehow threatening.

quote:

A Gorean Master is likely to woo your sub/slave away:
Actually no. It’s more likely to be the case that a sub/slave after seeing how a particular Master or Mistress (Gorean or non Gorean) acts etc that it is they who may in fact wish to jump ship as it were. I’m not saying that it would never happen for we are all human after all and I have no doubt that Goreans have wood deliberately a girl from another collar.

Here i agree with you, I don't see goreans as any more likely to be predatory, however I can also see how the facade of being Gorean could easily be used by a predatory Dom, especially since there is a slightly sinister impression regarding goreans in general in the minds of many.

quote:

Goreans are so damned scary:
In matters of Protocol, Honour, Integrity, Courage, Loyalty and Duty are concerned, yes we are touchy and if they are called into question we can be a damned scary group

Well this one I have no way to really say one way or the other, never having, to my knowledge, pissed off a Gorean. However I don't find those who espouse the Gorean philosophy on CM to be personally scary, despite the efforts of some to foster that image. If there is anything scary about the Gorean lifestyle, it would be that there is far more unity amongst Goreans than amongst non-Goreans. That and the ritualistic aspect of much of it, which can give the impression of a cult-like activity, something which most of us find somewhat scary.

I look forward to the opinions of the rest of our Gorean brethren here on CM

< Message edited by Arpig -- 2/1/2006 11:21:18 PM >

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 5

RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 12:30:28 AM

IronBear

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Tal Arpig,

That was an interesting take on my post...

Thank you. Interestingly enough you mentioned the ritualistic aspect of our life style, I remember not so long ago that someone asked what were the differences between Goreans and the Old Guard. One person replied that if you were to meet a gorup of Goreans in the same room as a group of Old Guard, the difference would be the language or terminology. Both groups have strict protocols and ritual (for the main as I have been informed.

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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Arpig)

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 5:37:29 AM

DesertRat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

One word.

Fear.

I don't think it's fear, though some Goreans might like to think so. I think it's just the usual thing of people judging others. I see it in Goreans and non-Goreans alike, but only in minority-type numbers. I suppose one could argue that being judgemental is a condition that arises from fear. Apparently, a few people on both "sides" feel threatened by each other.

Bob

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 5:53:07 AM

michaelGA

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i don't fear Gor...as long as i don't have to properly serve Blackwine again...main that's alot to remember...LOL

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 6:04:29 AM

mirya

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Really? A girl thought serving blackwine was pretty easy... pour the coffee into Jarl's cup, add the required half-cow's worth of cream, stir well, set on the computer desk and back away sloooooowly.... ~winks~

On a more serious note, the thing is, as this girl sees it, very few people outside the Gorean lifestyle actually have a ~clue~ what it's all about, so she feels there is some fear, in the "It's different! Burn the monster!" sort of way?

Combine that with the annoyingly high number of roleplayers masquerading as Goreans (Free ~and~ slave) and it is not surprising that there is some animosity.

respectfully,

~mirya

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 6:08:53 AM

michaelGA

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i imagine the serves would be alot more interesting, not to mention fun, if done in real life...tpying them is a bitch and a half. some are soooooo, detailed, my fingers got cramps...LOL

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 6:24:53 AM

livesintheheart

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this girl believes part of the reason Gor raises so many hackles, is that it is the strictest of the strict in the lifestyle.

girl has talked to many subs, who cannot wrap their mind around the fact that they have *no* say in what goes on. the only choice they have, is to leave. in comparing slave vs. sub, subs get to have safe words, and have limits, and say no. a slave is not allowed that luxury.

however, a Master/slave relationshiip, because the slave gives up everything to her Master/Mistress, can be deeply fulfilling. a slave must trust her owner and his choices implicitly, creating a very strong bond between the two.

girl has met a *lot* of people who think they are Gorean, but instead, they just help foster the impression that the Gorean lifestyle is bad. they have no interest in the M/s relationship at all: they are just interested in the kinky sex and beating a slave because they can. when one sees a *true* Master/Mistress of the lifestyle--boy! what a wonderful thing it is!

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 6:32:05 AM

IronBear

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I have a collection on one CD of a variety of serves done in various role-play rooms from paga serves in a paga tavern, to elaborate Northern serves and the serves in walled cities to serves done in both desert camps and Kasbahs. I have also read and taken notice ion a variety of serves in the books (I have read 20 of them to date). I did this for one reason, I wanted to be able take what I like from the RP serves and keep it close to the books and yet make it practical for use I the Lifestyle. I am over time rewriting a number of the serves to use under either relaxed or formal situations. I rewrote the bazi tea serve being done in RP room because they had based it on the Japanese tea ceremony. The Tahari Tribesmen were based on the Bedouins so I used a mix of the Bedouin and Turkish formal coffee ceremony (I don’t call it Bazi Tea Service but rather it is simply the formal tea ceremony to great new people who are deemed as being important (i.e. formal Gorean Visitors or other specific friends). It suits my normal love or protocol; and Ritual to have such things in place as part of our daily lifestyle. I claim them not as Gorean but part of what I am. The only things I claim as Gorean can be authenticated in the books.

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Iron Bear

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 7:22:48 AM

MrDiscipline44

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From what I've seen, Gorean raise hackles because people with in and outside of it foster misunderstandings about it. Thus brews some fears in people. Mostly it's those who take the books too literally and themselves too seriously. From what I've seen.

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 7:35:37 AM

PrincessinLatex

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I'm an outsider to gor. . . but it doesnt do anything for me one way or another. In my experience, the people I've met dont regard gor as "scary" or "intimidating". . .nor do they particularly resent gor. I think it draws attention to itself for its sheer "Jerry Springer-esqueness."

The same principle would apply to a group that comes out and says that they are the "Narni-ites" or "Lords of the Rings" or "Potterese." It's kinda like how the vanilla people view trekkies I guess.

P

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 7:45:17 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PrincessinLatex

I'm an outsider to gor. . . but it doesnt do anything for me one way or another. In my experience, the people I've met dont regard gor as "scary" or "intimidating". . .nor do they particularly resent gor. I think it draws attention to itself for its sheer "Jerry Springer-esqueness."

The same principle would apply to a group that comes out and says that they are the "Narni-ites" or "Lords of the Rings" or "Potterese." It's kinda like how the vanilla people view trekkies I guess.

P

I know a number of people who are members of other lifestyle groups mostly in the medieval themes such as the SCA and who take the best of those periods, somewhat Camalotian if you will, and adapt the ideals of chivalry to the daily living. Is this wrong? No it is excellent to see such things. I have yet to see them being mocked or feared. Are they so different to us? They demonstrate a sense of chivalry, honour, protectiveness towards others who need protection. Are they so different to the Gorean Lifestyle?

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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 7:59:47 AM

PrincessinLatex

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quote:

I know a number of people who are members of other lifestyle groups mostly in the medieval themes such as the SCA and who take the best of those periods, somewhat Camalotian if you will, and adapt the ideals of chivalry to the daily living. Is this wrong? No it is excellent to see such things. I have yet to see them being mocked or feared. Are they so different to us? They demonstrate a sense of chivalry, honour, protectiveness towards others who need protection. Are they so different to the Gorean Lifestyle?

I'm sure if they did it all the time and took it out of context. . .they would be ridiculed too. Cervantes wrote a book about it didnt he?

I personally dont have a problem with gor. To each their own. . . .I was just offering a reason that *I* saw (based on my experience) as to why people react the way they do.

Just a thought: If gor was called something else and it wasnt based on a series of badly written sci-fi fantasy books. . .it might be taken more "seriously." I'm sure the principles and philosophies might appeal to a broader range of people. (I'm just playing devil's advocate here.)

In the infamous words of one of my favorite posters here. . .I must now go and domesticate my sleen.

pax,

P

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 8:08:32 AM

Arpig

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quote:

Are they so different to the Gorean Lifestyle?

No they are not in so far as the code of personal behaviour goes, but throw in the enslavement of women and there is a big difference. And there i think we may have the root of the antipathy, unlike the SCA, the Gorean lifestyle is viewed as kinky sex, and despite what IronBear very correctly pointed out earlier in this thread regarding Gor & BDSM, the fact that we are discussing this on what is in effect a kinky sex forum pretty much prooves that point.
If the SCA had some sexual element in it, they would probably evoke a similar reaction.

MrDiscipline & PrincessLatex between them raise a valid point as well. When I first came to understand exactly what was meant by the term "Gorean" I had the reaction of "Oh, bondage trekkies". However, being an insufferably curious and nosey fellow, I read through the Gorean forum here, and read up on a lot of websites, and have now come to the realisation that there is indeed a lot more to the Gorean lifestyle than simple role-playing or an attempt to recreate the world of the books. Yet so often when somebody asks about Gorean practices, they are told to "read the books", which reinforces the impression that it is all some elaborate role-playing thing, and therefore it also reinforces the impression that those who call themselves Gorean take themselves far too seriously, and are in need of a serious reality check. While I realise that the books are central to the understanding of the basic philosophical foundation, the tenets of the world presented in the books obviously need to be interpreted and adapted to this world, and if how this was done were more readily understood, then I feel there would be far less confusion and less animosity.
of course, i am sure there are some who enjoy the notoriety and the sinister air, but overall I think a broader understanding would be a better thing for all concerned.

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Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 8:18:30 AM

Arpig

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quote:

On a more serious note, the thing is, as this girl sees it, very few people outside the Gorean lifestyle actually have a ~clue~ what it's all about, so she feels there is some fear, in the "It's different! Burn the monster!" sort of way?

Combine that with the annoyingly high number of roleplayers masquerading as Goreans (Free ~and~ slave) and it is not surprising that there is some animosity.

I think this is indeed a large part of the problem, there is a lack of understanding, mostly the fault of the Goreans I am afraid, there is a tendency to be somewhat close-mouthed about what it is all about, to foster an air of the mysterious, and to hide behind the books. There are a few Goreans on here who readily stand up and explain what exactly they take it to mean to be Gorean, and what I found surprising given my original take on it all...a large number of them are gorean slave women, and that is something I truely appreciate, since, like i said before i am curious and nosey, and hearing from the masters AND the slaves is very helpful in establishing a better understanding.

_____________________________

Big man! Pig Man!
Ha Ha...Charade you are!

Why do they leave out the letter b on "Garage Sale" signs?

CM's #1 All-Time Also-Ran

(in reply to Arpig)

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 8:28:02 AM

yun

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greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves..

from a little slaves viewpoint.. i think it comes down to personal convictions and the belief that we are doing what is right for ourselves. when anyone meets someone that is different then them, they begin judging immediately. not necessarily in a harsh way, but it happens even if subconsciously. when they act in a way you aren't used to, it becomes a bit fearful because you don't know how they will react or respond. then to see that they are proud of who/what they are..you start to question "why" and "how" they could be satisfied in their life when they are *gasp* different then you and you are happy in your life! so in order to retain your own happiness about how your life is structured, you attack them and their way of life. surely you can't both be right!

there is a lot of arrogance in Gorean Men and in kajira. but as stated i see it as a self-confident arrogance and not a grandiose way of strutting around. we attack what we don't know..we attack what we don't like..we do it out of our own mental self preservations and happiness.

with an allowed voice..

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owned property of BLS

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RE: Why does Gor raise so many hackles? - 2/2/2006 8:35:40 AM

RedDragonFreehol

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Tal Arpig,

That is one really good question, and one that has many possible answers depending on who is holding the negative opinion.

Let's take the vanilla world as our first issue. For three decades now, the feminists involved with the National Order of Women have been retro-engineering America into a femocentric society. Goreans believe in a philosophy that is dimetrically opposed to the entire concept of feminism, and we are vocal about it. We stand as the lone bastian against feminism in this day and age, and we can adequately defend our position philosophically. At which point, we are a serious threat to the feminist infrastructure in places of power within politics, industry, and society at large. Why would they have anything good to say about us.

Another issue is that there have been some high profile stalking and serial murder cases involving people who have claimed to be Gorean. One known as Slavemaster met and abducted several women who he contacted through online Gorean IRC rooms. In the mind of a public already poisoned against the philosophy by feminism, you can only immagine the generalization in the mind of the public when it came out that Slavemaster claimed to be "Gorean". Now, those claims were fictitious. He was a predator who mimicked Gorean thought to entice his victims. As a group, Gorean Society has decried this person and those who choose to use our name in the cause of mistreatment and abuse of women.

The key here perhaps is that too few outside Gorean Society really understand that ours is a system based on honor, integrity, personal responsibility, and honest dealing with our fellows. It is also based on Natural Order, and an understanding that biologicaly, men are dominant, women submissive, and that human beings would be a whole lot more healthy and better off emotionally if society did not try to thwart the Natural Order at every turn. Note, that this says noting about relative worth of people. Our slaves may be in their natural place, but that is a far cry from saying that they are valueless. Without the yin, the yang has no purpose.

Within the alternate lifestyle community at large, we are the last bastian of a pure M/s culture that refrains from being part of the SM game players for the most part. Now, many Goreans enjoy a bit of kink from time to time, but that is not our focus. We are focused on applying principle to life, and living this as life, not lifestyle. As such we represent a culture that, at least in real time, is a pure M/s culture who lives in what many would consider a very high state of protocol every day, and that disciplined approach to life sets us apart at every alt community function. We are visible, we are knowledgable, and we are disciplined and dedicated. We are outspoken, and call attention to those around us who choose not to be. That makes waves, and it steps on toes, and calls into real question many in the Leather community who call themselves Masters, but truthfully would not know a real Master if he walked up and bit them in the ass. There is also the issue of the pansexual nature of the modern Leather culture and the Natural Order focus of the Gorean Philosophy. If you think the Leather community is removed from the feminist infrastructure, think again. There is a reason why there are so many so called Mistresses with their subbie boys, and it has everything to do with the sickened and twisted perversion called external society, and them as its predictable produce.

Now, I am not known for my tact. Heck, I am not sure any Gorean is known for that quality. That comes with the aforementioned honor and honesty components of our belief. Tact is a social falsehood that we choose to not engage in.

Be well,

Omega
Master of Red Dragon Freehold
Chairman of the High Council
Colorado Gorean Society

www.coloradogoreans.com
www.fraternalorderofgoreans.com
groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradogoreans
groups.yahoo.com/group/fraternalorderofgoreans

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