More War Crimes Happening Now? (Full Version)

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OrionTheWolf -> More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 8:27:18 PM)

"Afghanistan's leading human rights ­organisation is investigating claims that white phosphorus was used during a deadly battle between US forces and the Taliban last week in which scores of civilians may have died. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/10/afghanistan-attacks-phosphorus-investigation




Vendaval -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 8:28:31 PM)

I was reading that about an hour ago.  Nasty addition of chemical warfare to the mix.  [>:]



Owner59 -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 8:37:43 PM)

Our forces have denied the use of phosphorus.Shouldn`t we at least wait until there`s evidence, before calling it a war crime?


And isn`t this admitting to other/past war crimes? Gotta be careful what you ask.[;)]



popeye1250 -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:07:02 PM)

And there's the possibility that the Ragheads used it.



FirmhandKY -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:09:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Our forces have denied the use of phosphorus.Shouldn`t we at least wait until there`s evidence, before calling it a war crime?


And isn`t this admitting to other/past war crimes? Gotta be careful what you ask.[;)]


Yesterday Barack Obama's national security adviser, Gen James Jones, ruled out such a change in policy

Firm



Termyn8or -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:14:41 PM)

O59, we know you are biased, and that is not a big problem. But US forces are known for sure to have used depleted uranium weapons. This is a war crime by definition under international law.

Now the latest I have heard is of Israel using DIME bombs, which is only an allegation until someone sets out to prove it of course, but medics out in the field are describing injuries consistent with the use of those weapons, which is also against international law I believe.

What I find hard to believe sometimes is your level of partiasanship, that sometimes you seem to lose sight of the fact that all these people are the same. That what we are in is actually more of a class war than anything else.

This country has done things of which I am not proud to say the least, and they started just about from it's inception. It is not any one person or political party responsible for this, it is a different class of people. Face it, unless recently bombed, most people on this planet want peace. Somebody else doesn't, and they have the ability to screw things up. As long as it is in their best interests to do so, they will not hesitate.

That includes all of them, as long as we agree that it is all of them. It's not the Whigs or the Tories, or the Likud or any other political party. It is the class of people who rule. And lately, I think the commoner has more class than they.

T



FirmhandKY -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:18:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

But US forces are known for sure to have used depleted uranium weapons. This is a war crime by definition under international law.

Bullshit.

Please, pretty please ... show me where the use of depleted uranium is a "war crime by definition under international law".

Firm



Owner59 -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:30:33 PM)

Using DU is still wrong,either way.



CruelNUnsual -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:46:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Using DU is still wrong,either way.


And why is that, oh great one?  Numerous tudies have shown no detrimental health effects from their use or even direct exposure to natural or depleted uranium. The half life is too long.



Owner59 -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:48:52 PM)

Tudies?[:D]



FirmhandKY -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:49:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Using DU is still wrong,either way.


Pretty wide open statement.

Using bullets is just wrong, either way.

Not.

Firm



DarkSteven -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:50:45 PM)

What ARE DU weapons?  DU is almost nonradioactive, being depleted.  However, it is a great heavy metal, and is used in armor plating for tanks, for example.  There's a big difference in using DU for armor and for projectiles.

Back on track - There's a strong suspicion that WP was used, nothing more at present.  The US has denied using WP, and apparently the Taliban has not made any statements.  Note that the US used WP in Iraq as recently as 2005, but has denied that it used WP in last week's fighting.



TheHeretic -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:52:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual


And why is that, oh great one?  Numerous tudies have shown no detrimental health effects from their use or even direct exposure to natural or depleted uranium. The half life is too long.



         Unless, of course, you are the one having the weapons fired at you.  In that case, the detrimental health effects are very well established [:D]



Owner59 -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 9:53:50 PM)

Bullets made made of DU ,yes


They are actually thinking about outlawing lead for use in bullets in some states.Damm environmentalists.[:D]



Termyn8or -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 10:07:49 PM)

OK I stand corrected. It is only against international environmental law. But there is quite a movement on to make it a war crime, whether or not that happens is anybody's guess.

So I guess it's just OK then to do it.

KY, do you live on a planet where morality is always dictated to you ?

I had a situation where my neighbor was using a snowblower and covering up my dryer vent, and he had been told and did it again. I have a gas dryer. Among my options was to take my garden hore and flood his driveway in the middle of winter, which is very likely to cause a fall and subsequent injury to him or his Wife, who are both a bit aged and retired and not likely to recover very quickly.

So since this action is not specifically prohibited, it would be OK then ?

On the other hand, in the body of international law, I am sure DU weapons do fit some criteria that have been established. It might take a bit of digging, but I would bet it's somewhere.

I decided to take no action, I simply shoveled out my dryer vent and loaded it and dried my clothes, I didn't even throw the snow on their driveway, I probably really should have. But the thing is, if I had flooded their driveway and made it into a veritable skating rink in the middle of the night, there is probably a statute somewher under which I could be charged, without it mentioning the specific act.

Now that I think of it, I don't think there is any law against us taking all of our nuclear and infectuous medical waste over to Iraq and just piling it up before we leave. Why don't we just do that ?

Basically a body of laws cannot be exhaustive when it comes to specific types of weapons, but somewhere in there the spirit of the law is expressed, and one day someone might just find it.

It's just not my job.

T



FirmhandKY -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 10:19:35 PM)

Term,

You won't find anything in international law against the use of DU, as a projectile, or any international environmental law on the subject, either.

You will find a whole passel of bullshit on the subject, though, the majority of which can be traced back to a single individual who has been debunked repeatedly, yet is still quoted extensively.

The only "international illegality" concerning DU (at leat the last time I reasearched the subject about a year ago), is that a committee of the UN once suggested that it might be considered in a future ruling for some kind of legal sanction, due to the mis-information by the same individual I referenced before.

The real reason that DU has such a "bad name" in many circles is because it's effective, and the US military is the primary user.

After all, if the US military uses it, it must ipso facto be a war crime of some kind.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 10:22:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

KY, do you live on a planet where morality is always dictated to you ?

..
So since this action is not specifically prohibited, it would be OK then ?

Staw-man argument.

It's a better bullet.

It's use can be moral or immoral, just as any weapon can.

Firm



Termyn8or -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 10:44:19 PM)

I don't think we are having the same argument here. It seems to me that you think that law = morality.

Also, the "strawman" argument is actually known as a metaphor in case you didn't know. It is simply which side of the argument one is on that makes the distinction.

T



FirmhandKY -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/10/2009 11:55:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I don't think we are having the same argument here. It seems to me that you think that law = morality.

How you would get this is beyond me.

You made an incorrect claim of illegality, and then proceeded to use this false claim to oh-so-nicely make claims about how the US seems to regularly commit war crimes.

I addressed your false claim, nothing more.  I did not address the other claptrap in your post.

I certainly made no claim, nor even made any remarks that could be construed as equating legality with morality.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Also, the "strawman" argument is actually known as a metaphor in case you didn't know. It is simply which side of the argument one is on that makes the distinction.

Look at what I quoted of your piece in my claim of a strawman argument.  Do you see anything that relates to your rambling story about your neighbor?

The strawman is that you go from an argument about whether or not DU is illegal to use under international law, to arguing that I somehow believe that law=morality.

Here, let me parse the discussion so far, from my point of view:

Term:  The use of DU is illegal under international law, but the US uses it.  The Israels probably use illegal weapons too.  It's the fault of the people in charge, not us "common men", and the US has done it since its inception.  "They" don't care about anything except money and power ("best interests").

Firm: The use of DU is not illegal under international law, any more than a bullet is.

Term: uh, ok, maybe not, but it probably is under international environmental law.  Even if it's not, it's probably illegal somewhere in the mess of regutations and treaties, but I can't be bothered to actually research it, so I'll just assume it is.

And if it isn't illegal, it should be.  Why would you want to use something that kills people, Firm?  Have you no morality?

Oh, yeah, and even if I can't find anything that says DU is illegal, it should be.

Firm



OrionTheWolf -> RE: More War Crimes Happening Now? (5/11/2009 5:37:25 AM)

That is why there is a question mark at the end. I also admit that there have technically and overtly been war crimes during the Bush and Clinton admins.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Our forces have denied the use of phosphorus.Shouldn`t we at least wait until there`s evidence, before calling it a war crime?


And isn`t this admitting to other/past war crimes? Gotta be careful what you ask.[;)]



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