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Notable Passing - 2/5/2006 5:34:19 PM

Leonidas

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Betty Friedan has died. She was 85.

She became known as one of the founders of the modern feminist movement by writing a book titled "The Feminine Mystique". Most people associate the modern feminist movement with the 60s generation, but The Feminine Mystique was actually about their mothers. The book came about as a result of a poll that Betty took at a reunion of her Smith College classmates (class of 1942) about their satisfaction (or lack thereof) with their lives in post-war suburbia. Her conclusion was, basically, that "femininity" and the notion that there are natural, gender based roles is a lie, and that the women of the class of '42 were living that lie and it was making them miserable.

The notions that she put forward in "The Feminine Mystique" are taken by most folks today as accepted, common knowedge, just as it was considered accepted, common knowledge before she came along that men and women are suited for different roles based on their physical, intellectual, and emotional makeup. Whether you agree with her point of view or not, it would be hard not to have respect for the amazing shift in what most people hold to be fact that she was able to pull off in the span of a generation.

50 years on, if you polled the class of '92 about their satisfaction with their lives in post-feminist-revolution America, I wonder if it would compare favorably to the class of '42. If so, one would have to say that Betty accomplished something important. If not, one would have to wonder whether she accomplished anything at all.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 2/5/2006 5:37:56 PM >

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/6/2006 12:46:10 AM

leli

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A very profound closing statement Master Leonidas ~ i feel the fact that You have written such a wonderful post , i ment, what You have written in Your post, proves Betty did in fact accomplish more than she ever knew.

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/6/2006 7:36:10 AM

RedDragonFreehol

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Tal Leonidis,

All that goes to show really is the pervasive character that feminist thought has had on American culture, a line of thought that Norman absolutely rejected in his various arguments in the Gor books. As Goreans we really cannot have it both ways. Do we believe the philosophical perspective that Norman presents, or do we not. I would have to assert that those who do not accept the perspective presented in the books have no right to claim the Gorean Society because what they believe is technically not Gorean Philosophy. There are plenty out there who claim themselves to be Gorean, but miss that salient logical point. If you throw out 90% of the philosophy as presented, because you find it unpallatable, and then replace it with things from the external world with its feminist and humanist viewpoints, then what you have is no longer Norman's philosophy. At that point, how Gorean are you if 90% of what you believe is not even remotely based on the philosophy Norman presents? The answer is that you are not Gorean at all. What you may be is a humanist or feminist who chooses to cloak themselves in some of the fantasy trappings of Gor, but that is not the same thing, even remotely, as being Gorean.

Be well,

Omega

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/6/2006 9:29:56 AM

Arpig

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It would appear that some interpret Gorean as being by definition anti-feminist

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/6/2006 9:38:43 AM

MrDiscipline44

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The way I see it, Leonidas is doing something he would want done for him. To expect respect, you must be able to give respect. He respecting an enemy who has passed, something noble warriors have always done. It's one thing to sit and talk about honor, it's another to actually show that you have honor.

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/6/2006 5:17:03 PM

RedDragonFreehol

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Tal Arpig,

It has nothing with interpretation. Norman said as much in the books. I can supply numerous quotes if you like. You might want to read the books again. I only suggest that since you obviously missed all the serious anti-feminist arguments that Norman posed throughout the 26 volumes, along with healthy doses of evolutionary naturalism, and reactionary thought. There is much more to the philosophy than an honor code that is held in common with dozens of other philosophical and theological belief systems. If you miss the anti-feminist, anti-modern society, and universal natural order segments of the program, then you miss about 80% of the meat of what Norman was getting at.

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/6/2006 6:20:39 PM

mnottertail

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It has always seemed that the grass is greener on the other side, hell; even cows think as much, and they don't even have the capacity to put on airs.

I truely doubt among the unique of the 100k-200K plus nicks here, that there exists 1/2 of 1/4 of 1/8 percent that is with their first pick out of the box and maintaned it for a length of time...(of course, I know there exists at least one here, so phone the fucker in; I don't wanna hear it).

Seems like many people find the true 'One' many times....LOL.

Hard enough to go thru life if a man, trying to keep your sack, trying to consider all, being honest and forthright to everyone.

Hard enough to be a woman, trying to go thru without resorting to wiles and such.

don't eat carbs, eat carbs, don't eat fat, eat fat, don't eat salt, eat salt...

seems like an attention span; a common and fundamental creed of living so that something of worth can be carved on your gravestone is a rare commodity in the world.

Constantly long somebody says "It's here" or; "No, it's there".

Thousands of years ago a simple farmer in japan climbed a mountain and brought down a rock and started encompassing his land with them, building a stone fence................after many decades, as an old man, he could only bring down a stone or two a day..........

His neighbors laughed and derided him; saying......old man you will never level the mountain, why do you try, why waste the effort?

The old man said, no; I will not level this mountain, but my great-great-great-great-great grandson will, and he will have a fine stone fence, as well.

As nenakajira would say.........

I am just Yoda-ing,

Ron
P.S. Hope you get the vision. LOL.

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/7/2006 2:52:05 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

All that goes to show really is the pervasive character that feminist thought has had on American culture, a line of thought that Norman absolutely rejected in his various arguments in the Gor books.

Yes, it has been amazingly pervasive. I think that there is somthing to be gained by giving more than a passing thought as to why. Why did what Betty Freidan and others had to say resonate so strongly with enough men and women that they were willing to run off in what we Goreans think is an ill-advised direction? Obviously people read shit and believe it to their detriment sometimes. Communism is a good example. Why did this notion that men and women ought to be so completely interchangable take hold? I have my own ideas about that, and I have expressed them here before.

I for one would hate to think that we are an anti-feminist, rejectionist ideology. It's a much stronger position to stand for something than to stand against something.

quote:

As Goreans we really cannot have it both ways. Do we believe the philosophical perspective that Norman presents, or do we not. I would have to assert that those who do not accept the perspective presented in the books have no right to claim the Gorean Society because what they believe is technically not Gorean Philosophy.

Agreed. In the thread about why Goreans raise the hackles of some folks, this is one of the reasons that I gave. There really is a Gorean point of view that is thoroughly (and repeatedly) spelled out in the books. If you don't hold that point of view, you ain't one. It really is that simple. It does mightily piss some folks off to be told that they ain't one, however.

quote:

There are plenty out there who claim themselves to be Gorean, but miss that salient logical point. If you throw out 90% of the philosophy as presented, because you find it unpallatable, and then replace it with things from the external world with its feminist and humanist viewpoints, then what you have is no longer Norman's philosophy. At that point, how Gorean are you if 90% of what you believe is not even remotely based on the philosophy Norman presents?

Well, the sad fact is my friend that most of them never had the chance to throw it out, because they never had their hands on it in the first place. They've never read the books, much less thought about the implications of adopting the point of view presented in the books. What they know about being Gorean they learned in a chatroom or on a website where the focus is D/s flavored role-play, and the "rules" or protocol, of that play.

If a lot of these folks really understood what they were calling themselves, they would probably reject it in favor of the feminist/humanist values that they grew up with, or try to adopt it and fail, because adopting a new philosophy and set of values is just plain hard. Most of them will never even have the chance to try, though.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 2/7/2006 3:09:36 AM >

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/7/2006 6:54:19 AM

Arpig

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quote:

It's a much stronger position to stand for something than to stand against something.

A laudible sentiment in any context

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/7/2006 8:43:45 AM

starshineowned

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Greetings..~smiles~

For simplicity sake on my part..

In some of the things that I've read of the Gor Books..the general over all theme I gathered was that Men ruled, were superior to the female (list of reasons why doesn't matter), and that any woman who wasn't a slave was only that way by the will of Men.

Why were there women who were allowed that status of freedom to begin with? What was the purpose?

A good majority of persons today would and still do state that this is a Mans world. It is ultimately ran by Men. Women are free today and not enslaved and wether thought upon as not as superior or not..ultimately who gave them this ability to be free? Men.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is what really is different from the norman philosophys and what occurred in the books or was allowed..from what is occurring and allowed now?

starshine
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RE: Notable Passing - 2/7/2006 11:19:44 AM

RedDragonFreehol

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Tal Leonidas,

If, as you point out in the latter point of your post, most of them have never actually read the books, then that is a pity. there is much there to be admired and emulated. I, myself, wonder if it is not so much that they do not read the books as it is that they read only a few of the books, and they do not read with an understanding of philosophy at any real level, and so they miss the parts that are important because it gets lost in the story line (though sometimes that is part of the philsophy as well at some level).

For example, most miss the fact that the iconic Free Women who were portrayed in the books were portrayed that way because they were representative examples of feminists in the women's movement, and to the woman, they were enslaved to point out Norman's assertions of natural order, and the idea that no matter how hard man tries to overcome nature, nature will not be denied.

As another example, I have heard people state time and time again that there are no tarns or sleen on Earth....thinking that is somehow prophetic, while missing the salient point of the flora and fauna of Gor. That flora and fauna describe creatures that have been allowed to develope according to natural lines, and there is a reason that they are all very fierce and deadly things. Norman is pointing out that nature is a fierce and deadly thing, and that in a natural world only those things fierce and deadly have the capacity for survival. Juxtiposed on Gor against a humanity that has taken its rightful place within that fierce and deadly order of nature, and has learned to be part of nature instead of fighting against nature, and trying to force nature to the will of men.

I find it common that many only read the books that they read in a very superficial manner. Something I touched on in another post here. You have to not just read the books. You have to re-read the books, and re-read the books, and re-read the books, and with each successive re-reading, more comes to the surface, and you are better able to gleen the philosophy.

Be well,

Omega

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RE: Notable Passing - 2/7/2006 2:43:02 PM

MistressDREAD