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Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 7:51:08 AM

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"This is the latest of more than 40 suspected U.S. missile strikes on militant targets in northwest Pakistan over the past year. Last week, a suspected U.S. drone (unmanned) aircraft fired a missile at a compound in South Waziristan, also near the Afghan border, killing at least 8.

The United States rarely discusses the strikes, which Pakistan has criticized as counterproductive and a violation of its sovereignty. "

Are we justified in violating Pakistan's sovereignty? If so, then what are the conditions that must be met to violate another countries sovereignty?

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-05-16-voa6.cfm

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 7:57:20 AM

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Where were you in 02 ?

When we invaded Iraq ,a sovereign nation.

At least we`re going after the bad guy,ie. the real ,actual bad guys.Obama took a lot of flack from the "neo-experts" when he said he`d take out bin-laden, no matter where.

Gobama!

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 5/16/2009 7:58:08 AM >

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 8:17:50 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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In principle, yes - this sort of action is entirely justified. Assuming we're targeting the right people this time, these are terrorists who attacked our country, killed thousands of innocent civilians, and are planning to do it again. There's a reason they're taking refuge in Pakistan, and that's because they know the government and the military there are not the least bit motivated to hunt them down. If Pakistan doesn't want us violating their soveriegnty, they're more than welcome to bring them to justice themselves. If they are unwilling to do for political reasons, we're entirely justified in going after them on our own. This is the part of "you're either for us or against us" with which I am in complete agreement.

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 8:27:17 AM

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Remember when Bush said we would go after the terrorist no matter where they were? Then we got side tracked on this nonsense in Iraq while the terrorist dug in somewhere else.

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 8:30:29 AM

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Pakistan has criticized some of our strikes in the past but there are indications that we are and that we have been working far more closely with the government of Pakistan than they want known. The Pakistanis are in a Catch-22 situation - if they don't call us in for help they get overrun by radicals. If they do call us in the radicals become further enraged by any visible signs of our cooperation.

So it's all done this way. Officially they protest the strikes that they have unofficially given us the targeting information for.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 5/16/2009 8:31:29 AM >

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 8:33:02 AM

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Remember when everyone "hoped" Obama would "change" all those rotten Bush policies?

See how he's embracing them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Remember when Bush said we would go after the terrorist no matter where they were? Then we got side tracked on this nonsense in Iraq while the terrorist dug in somewhere else.

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 8:34:29 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Remember when everyone "hoped" Obama would "change" all those rotten Bush policies?

See how he's embracing them?

So you're saying you think it's rotten policy to hunt down the Al Qeada terrorists who attacked us on 9/11?

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 8:38:39 AM

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I would have to agree with Owner and Panda, here. I used to feel like you do about it, Orion. I used to think in our fight for the war on terrorism, we are going to go about bombing all sorts of countries where terrorists are suspected of being. But if those countries are harboring terrorists, hiding them, not confronting them, enabling them in any way...then yes, they are not for our cause. Terrorist cells have been found all over the world. It's not where they're found that we look to bomb. It's where those cells are accepted and enabled to organize, grow and plot.......ultimately, against us!

editted to add...or maybe I should say...It's not where they're found that we're looking to bomb...Now. Iraq was bombing because we wanted to bomb...and trumped up reasons to justify it. Pakistan has the choice to be a terrorist country or not. Its their choice. We're not making it for them. We are just ensuring (or trying to ensure) our own American safety.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 5/16/2009 8:44:49 AM >

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 8:56:21 AM

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Sorry, but the sarcasm in that post should have been abundantly obvious to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Remember when everyone "hoped" Obama would "change" all those rotten Bush policies?

See how he's embracing them?

So you're saying you think it's rotten policy to hunt down the Al Qeada terrorists who attacked us on 9/11?

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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 9:04:27 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Sorry, but the sarcasm in that post should have been abundantly obvious to you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Remember when everyone "hoped" Obama would "change" all those rotten Bush policies?

See how he's embracing them?

So you're saying you think it's rotten policy to hunt down the Al Qeada terrorists who attacked us on 9/11?

The sarcasm was clear, but the point wasn't. Obama was clear throughout the campaign that his policy would be to go after the terrorists wherever they really are, and not where they aren't. I don't recall ever seeing a single Obama supporter expressing hope that he wouldn't puruse genuine terrorists. So I'm not sure what you're referring to, really. This is what he said he was going to do, and it was one of the reasons I supported him.

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 9:09:46 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Pakistan has criticized some of our strikes in the past but there are indications that we are and that we have been working far more closely with the government of Pakistan than they want known. The Pakistanis are in a Catch-22 situation - if they don't call us in for help they get overrun by radicals. If they do call us in the radicals become further enraged by any visible signs of our cooperation.

So it's all done this way. Officially they protest the strikes that they have unofficially given us the targeting information for.

Oh, yeah, no question about that. Pakistan is fucked either way. All they get to choose is which dick, and when. I think it's very likely that the issue of Pakistan's stability will be by far the biggest foreign policy crisis Obama's administration will have to deal with in his first term, and probably his second as well. Nuclear weapons + Al Qeada + unstable government + pro-Islamist military = world's worst nightmare.

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 9:16:48 AM

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One example.

The claim is being made now that Obama is invading a sovereign nation and needlessly bombing women and children.

(And believe me, if Bush were still in charge you would be hearing that charge shouted from the rooftops about him, as opposed to the muffled cries you're hearing now).

Another example of Bush policies Obama has embraced - military tribunals.

Another? Massive deficits, in fact record deficits so huge that even Obama is throwing Obama under the bus on this issue.

There are many, many more prime examples to be had, but I have a prior commitment I must attend to.

Surely you can come up with quite a few on your own?

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 9:29:42 AM

ThatDamnedPanda

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I'm with you on the military tribunals, but not with the apparent comparison between Iraq and Pakistan/Afghanistan. We were attacked by Al Qeada, and we're justified in chasing Al Qeada anywhere they happen to be hiding. They were not hiding in Iraq, so there was no justification for chasing them there. They were hiding in Afghanistan, so we were justified in chasing them there. They are hiding in Pakistan, so we are justified in chasing them there. Soverign nation or not, wherever they are taking refuge we are justified in pursuing them if the government of that country is not willing to do so. I regret and mourn any collateral damage in Pakistan and Afghanistan, but collateral damage in Iraq never would have even happened in the first place if it weren't for Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Powell's war crimes.

As for the deficits, I'm not comfortable with the size of Obama's deficits either, but again the comparison between the Obama deficits and the Bush deficits breaks down when you start to examine the nature of the deficits. The deficits that Obama is running are primarily being used to finance what he hopes will be a recovery from the economic disaster caused by the deficits Bush ran up to finance a disastrous war and give tax cuts to the wealthy. It's like the difference between taking out a loan to start up a small business, and maxing out your credit card for a trip to Vegas.

You have to look at what the borrowed money is being used for. Whether he's right or not - whether it works and pays for itself, or blows up in our faces - remains to be seen, but you can't just say, "well, a debt is a debt is a debt." It's not that simple.

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 5/16/2009 9:37:28 AM >

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 9:36:44 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

One example.

The claim is being made now that Obama is invading a sovereign nation and needlessly bombing women and children.

(And believe me, if Bush were still in charge you would be hearing that charge shouted from the rooftops about him, as opposed to the muffled cries you're hearing now).

Uh......well..............This whole thing with the attacks into Pakistani territory started under Bush.

Did you hear anything being shouted from the rooftops then?

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 10:47:17 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Pakistan has criticized some of our strikes in the past but there are indications that we are and that we have been working far more closely with the government of Pakistan than they want known. The Pakistanis are in a Catch-22 situation - if they don't call us in for help they get overrun by radicals. If they do call us in the radicals become further enraged by any visible signs of our cooperation.

So it's all done this way. Officially they protest the strikes that they have unofficially given us the targeting information for.

I fully agree with this, despite peoples views on them. The Pakistani Government dont want to see the spread of the Taliban. If that happens, they lose there own seats of power.

The thing that needs to be done is ensure that the targets are only militants and not civilians.

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 10:49:40 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Uh......well..............This whole thing with the attacks into Pakistani territory started under Bush.

Did you hear anything being shouted from the rooftops then?

World opinion has been against strikes that kill civilians from the very start.

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 11:50:26 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
The sarcasm was clear, but the point wasn't. Obama was clear throughout the campaign that his policy would be to go after the terrorists wherever they really are, and not where they aren't. I don't recall ever seeing a single Obama supporter expressing hope that he wouldn't puruse genuine terrorists. So I'm not sure what you're referring to, really. This is what he said he was going to do, and it was one of the reasons I supported him.

I see your point Panda. But will it happen? No. Obama will have no more luck snagging UBL than anyone else has.
No one wants to accept the cultural issue at stake; which is the primary reason UBL was never brought out of Afghanistan.
It not only custom and tradition, but holy law that will require his protectors to keep him safe.
The moment they became his hosts, they were individually and collectively respnsible for his safety and comfort.
It's one of the nicer facets of that culture. Man to man, arabs are hospitable, salt-of-earth type people.
Get them in a group and shove a Qu'ran down their pants and they act like a sackful of glue-sniffing civet cats. But that's another story.
j

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 12:14:10 PM

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I will say this again, as you seem to have missed it in previous posts, I was/am against the invasion of Iraq.

Now that is out of the way, would you care to address the question?

So what we determine is the bad guy (moral superiority) is against UN treaties and international law it is okay, as long as you agree who the bad guy is?

So Obama is justified in violating another nations sovereignty, as long as he is going after Bin Laden or terrorist? Seems more like we would do it with come kind of agreement with Pakistan, so that it is not a violation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Where were you in 02 ?

When we invaded Iraq ,a sovereign nation.

At least we`re going after the bad guy,ie. the real ,actual bad guys.Obama took a lot of flack from the "neo-experts" when he said he`d take out bin-laden, no matter where.

Gobama!

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 12:16:06 PM

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This makes more sense to me now. I can accept this as a plausable scenario that Obama would be involved in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Pakistan has criticized some of our strikes in the past but there are indications that we are and that we have been working far more closely with the government of Pakistan than they want known. The Pakistanis are in a Catch-22 situation - if they don't call us in for help they get overrun by radicals. If they do call us in the radicals become further enraged by any visible signs of our cooperation.

So it's all done this way. Officially they protest the strikes that they have unofficially given us the targeting information for.

_____________________________

When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."

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RE: Violation of another Nations Sovereignty - 5/16/2009 12:18:53 PM

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I didn't read anything about it then, and I may not have mentioned it because it would not be surprising that Bush did it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Uh......well..............This whole thing with the attacks into Pakistani territory started under Bush.

Did you hear anything being shouted from the rooftops then?

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