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I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 2:52:08 AM

smilezz

Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline

After all the recent posts and the questions that are arising.....Oh yeah, and not really wanting to hijack anyones post either. I have a whole lot to ask/say.
I'm going to start with this one: When i have heard over and over again that being a Gorean slave is not easy, yet very rewarding.....how is it that one day one decides they are no longer that slave, but a free person? I am very confused on this one. How does that just turn off??

Happy Thursday y'all!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

Post #: 1

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 3:29:51 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Never having been there but having been present when one lady did just that locally, it was a long process with a great deal of heart to heart discussions in which I was asked by all to act as moderator.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 2

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 4:19:00 AM

fyreredsub

Posts: 3403
Joined: 10/7/2005
Status: offline

good question.
i cant wait to see the responses????
the heavens do give what is needed...

quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

After all the recent posts and the questions that are arising.....Oh yeah, and not really wanting to hijack anyones post either. I have a whole lot to ask/say.
I'm going to start with this one: When i have heard over and over again that being a Gorean slave is not easy, yet very rewarding.....how is it that one day one decides they are no longer that slave, but a free person? I am very confused on this one. How does that just turn off??

Happy Thursday y'all!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 3

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 1:05:05 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

Maybe it was never turned on to begin with, maybe they were never slave to begin with. I'm sure many people can play the part quite convincingly from various motivations, usually involved with self-gratification. If a *slave* says she is no longer a slave, maybe she just realised that it really wasnt what rocked her world, a kinda self revelation, which is always a good thing.

ok im editing this...well adding more...

Another thing I thought of was that surrender and submission is a process. Giving up your personal choices to another is a journey. There are like layers to be peeled off. Maybe the said slave came up against a layer of her submission and slavery and ego that just didnt want to let go..so her rejection of her slavery in that scenario would be a natural and safe course of action for her to take in her own mind.

< Message edited by slavejali -- 2/9/2006 1:08:35 PM >

(in reply to fyreredsub)

Post #: 4

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 5:20:20 PM

MrThorns

Posts: 918
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slavejali

Maybe it was never turned on to begin with, maybe they were never slave to begin with. I'm sure many people can play the part quite convincingly from various motivations, usually involved with self-gratification. If a *slave* says she is no longer a slave, maybe she just realised that it really wasnt what rocked her world, a kinda self revelation, which is always a good thing.

ok im editing this...well adding more...

Another thing I thought of was that surrender and submission is a process. Giving up your personal choices to another is a journey. There are like layers to be peeled off. Maybe the said slave came up against a layer of her submission and slavery and ego that just didnt want to let go..so her rejection of her slavery in that scenario would be a natural and safe course of action for her to take in her own mind.

I'm not disagreeing with your observations slavejali, as I think you're probably on the money in regards to things that may go through a slave's mind who chooses to abandon her slave-self and persue other diversions.

If I am understanding Gor correctly, (and I'm probably not), it seems to have nothing to do with wether a slave identifies with being a slave or not. It has nothing to do with how devoted, selfless, or proficient she is as a slave or how much "belly fire" she may have. It's the masters that determine wether she is slave or not... right? They can have a slave "banished" by not allowing her to serve in any household (that they know of and have influence over) because she wanted out of the relationship. They can make a slave "free" by simply saying it is so. So how does someone simply "switch off"? Could you tell a master to simply stop being a master?

Granted, I have a hard time dicerning between those that try and live by the model of the gorean novels and those that simply type it out online... so if my observations are incorrect, please let me know.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to slavejali)

Post #: 5

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 6:48:40 PM

slavejali

Posts: 2918
Status: offline

Greetings MrThorns,

Master and i dont have a Gorean relationship, however i can relate to a lot of the thoughts and feelings expressed in the books, in which I have read only a couple. I guess my response was coming from thinking about headspaces slaves and submissives may get into as you said, rather than putting it purely into a Gor context.

I hear you when You say in Gorean sub culture, its the Master who deems one a slave, not the girl herself..so your question about how one could just say "i dont want to be this anymore" is really an interesting one and I wonder how that would play out in real life. To me that could mean only one thing, non-consensuality...which I dont get the feeling the people living a Gorean lifestyle are doing things non consensually...so......

That's all I can think of to say right now...its got me wondering though~

(in reply to MrThorns)

Post #: 6

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 9:24:32 PM

SabrinaRising

Posts: 54
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline

smilezz,

I am going to address this, because it certainly appears to be thrown my way.
To begin with, your presumption is wrong. I did not one day decide "oh I am no longer going to be a slave". Over the course of my entire service to this house, and indeed intensified in every Gorean community we have belonged in; the underlying current regarding me has always been "That is a Free companion, not a slave". Never said with disdain, always more as pure observation and often given as a compliment to my husband, and then Owner.

Now, philosophically I believe that all women will submit to the appropriate male, I believed this before I ever knew what a Gorean was. And I still believe this to this very second. The difference between myself, and kajira is that I can not...absolutely, innately, can not denuflect to 99.9 percent of men. Yet, there is that .1 percent that innately I go to my knees for. When I entered my house, I had no idea how to serve a man, I grew up like most of us here in a free western society...so I gladly took up that glory stone of service, to learn my place beneath a man. I put myself completely and entirely into that role for nine years. The difference again being...innately, in my very core I was not naturally submitting to but .1 percent of Gorean men. Sure, I have a very beautiful serve and I can make any man smile, but doing so and feeling so are two very different things.

So, long about two years ago when we came into the circle we are in now the Patriarch began to bend Johnathan's ear on the idea of bringing me out as a Free Companion. Believe it or not, Johnathan was much more open to the idea then I was. I fought it his entire last deployment. At moments, I continue to fight it now.

I am certainly not going blindly into that good night, my love. Nor am I jumping ships from one wind into another. Above all things to be Gorean, is to be what one is; truly. And I have about as close to an alpha personality and the ability to still submit to the appropriate male as you are going to get.

This is often being taken as I see myself as better than. What is humorous in that; is I didn't declare myself this thing, my community declared me thus. What is even more so is I wish in my core I had the ability to be what true kajira are, innately. I certainly don't see anything better than...just different than.

Now as for my kinks which I am also being questioned on...the two are mutely exclusive by and large. There are a plethora of Gorean Men who are also sadists, just as there are many who are not sadists at all.

I am being forced, by a political regime to live in an extremely unnatural state. If our house was not flexible and resilient enough to bend with the tide of being seperated year after year on these hellish deployments...we would have been but another statistic years ago. Further, when you are as I am...and then you see with your own eyes a "real" flesh and blood as you breath kajira with your Owner...the difference is so blatantly obvious in the interaction one can not hide from the truth. Why would I deny a man I adore such an expression of himself? Again, not better than...different than. At any rate, we are each as are all things...divinity manifest. But just as there are dolphins and sharks in the great blue sea...divinity manifests itself in an infinite amount of ways...yes Virginia...even in girls.

People like people to stay the same. It makes it easier for them. But we all grow and I think the reality is, that I was a Free Woman all along...just being molded into a Gorean Free Woman through service. Understanding Gorean life doesn't come intrinsically to but the very fortunate few. We aren't born into it, we aren't raised into it...so this was how I learned my place...because even Free a woman is still a woman.

That's about all I care to say on that at the moment. I knew at some point this would come out this way. And that is all fine and well. I don't need your acceptance or your understanding...the men here know that which I am...and what I am fully capable of being and in the end thats all that matters to me.

I stepped away from this board as I was being really thrust out into my Freedom in my own community, because I also had no idea how to express here "ok I was that, and now I am this". But I have learned so much in this arena...that coming back was inevitable.

I adore you smilezz, I always have. Nothing about me, has changed. I have just been unleashed to be the best and fullest expression of me I can be.

Be well,

Sabrina King

< Message edited by SabrinaRising -- 2/9/2006 9:31:58 PM >

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 7

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 9:37:41 PM

allyC

Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

can not denuflect to 99.9 percent of men

Greetings, Mistress.

I have noticed that you use the above word, denuflect, often to describe what you do (or in this case can not do) but I am curious as to what it means.

Well wishes,

Cav's ally

(in reply to SabrinaRising)

Post #: 8

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 9:53:53 PM

SabrinaRising

Posts: 54
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline

Denuflect means to literally "step aside"...or as to give blanketted respect to.
Whereas submission is active, denuflection is reflexive. Say...in old England...
Lord's and Ladies....all the common folk are required to denuflect to them purely by class codification, it has nothing to do with earned respect and everything to do with pure protocol, and more deeply an innate sense of inferiority...purely by class...or in Gorean case...by gender.

For whatever reason, I find it next to impossible to give this what feels to me as falsified class bearance to 99.9 percent of men merely because they have a penis.

It just intrinsically does not happen in me. In a true Gorean kajira, this should be an innate response. A natural denuflection to all males. Not a submission, a denuflection...a recogniton of superiority...I just don't have that in me.

I am as capable as the next person at faking it...but innately no.

Sabrina

(in reply to allyC)

Post #: 9

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/9/2006 11:38:28 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I think the key words are "People grow" and "Community". Surely people grow not just in the Gorean Lifestyle or even the BDSM Lifestyle but in general. Changes occur as we get older and grow. I know slave/subs who have simply grown out of their submissiveness and vicea versa. It is a wise community who can detect changes and recognise what is and not what appears to be. It is a courageous person who can accept the changes and acceptance of their community and like the phoenix arise from the ashes of what they were to what they are. Thank you Sabrina for an enlightening and well written accounting.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to SabrinaRising)

Post #: 10

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/10/2006 12:52:30 AM

allyC

Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SabrinaRising

Denuflect means to literally "step aside"...or as to give blanketted respect to.
Whereas submission is active, denuflection is reflexive. Say...in old England...
Lord's and Ladies....all the common folk are required to denuflect to them purely by class codification, it has nothing to do with earned respect and everything to do with pure protocol, and more deeply an innate sense of inferiority...purely by class...or in Gorean case...by gender.

For whatever reason, I find it next to impossible to give this what feels to me as falsified class bearance to 99.9 percent of men merely because they have a penis.

It just intrinsically does not happen in me. In a true Gorean kajira, this should be an innate response. A natural denuflection to all males. Not a submission, a denuflection...a recogniton of superiority...I just don't have that in me.

I am as capable as the next person at faking it...but innately no.

Sabrina

Greetings, Mistress.

Do you mean genuflect perhaps?

Well wishes,

Cav's ally

(in reply to SabrinaRising)

Post #: 11

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/10/2006 1:26:21 AM

SabrinaRising

Posts: 54
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline

ally,

Both work...genu-or denu- depending on the exact accounting of what is transpiring.

Sabrina

(in reply to allyC)

Post #: 12

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/10/2006 1:27:51 AM

SabrinaRising

Posts: 54
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline

Bear,

Thanks. I'm getting there...just fumbling toward ecstasy as always.

Sabrina

(in reply to SabrinaRising)

Post #: 13

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/10/2006 3:34:47 AM

smilezz

Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline

Sabrina,

Thank you, thank you for your reply. I did initially try with an e-mail, but with all that is going on and the sometimes CM problems, i guess it never got through.
Like i had said, i have been sitting here just trying to figure this one out on my own, i could no longer hold my fingers still *chucklez*. I did not want to just hijack your thread and go from there, so i am very thankfull you took the time to reply. I do understand it better now.

You know i wish you and your family the best in everything. From one adored woman to another.......

Have a good day my friend,

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to SabrinaRising)

Post #: 14

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/10/2006 6:17:15 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

The difference between myself, and kajira is that I can not...absolutely, innately, can not denuflect to 99.9 percent of men. Yet, there is that .1 percent that innately I go to my knees for.

Greetings Mistress;

This portion is exactly something that I was trying to ask questions about and if it were really even remotely possible to have or even trained to have given the fact that this is earth, society does not accept slavery, and many to most of us were raised in a free thinking, fend for yourself or get ran over life beforehand.

At present I will be obedient to the Owners wishes and give way. Wether I feel it genuinely inside or not when doing so. These have always been those "grit your teeth" moments and repeditively say in mind..I am pleasing Master. This mentality is a working area in progress for me with Masters guidance. I would like to think and hope at some point this does become or will become inately but it is just not something that can be driven out in a few years after a life time of what I try to describe it as "a self defense mentality" in order to survive in this world. Safeguard if you will for the physical, emotional, mental, spiritual.

I know that I am very much the same internally as you have stated. There are very few Men that will put me to my knee's without ever a thought in between of how I went from standing to kneeling. It just comes natural and is.

I would be very interested in hearing from Any kajira or slaves that feel this inately towards All who are known to them as Gorean Masters. Because if there are any..they got what I desire. ~smiles~

starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 15

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/10/2006 7:37:01 AM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

greetings smilezz,

There is a couple I know, He has owned her for well over a decade. During a very difficult time in their life He was seriously injured and could not work, fortunately she had a good job that had an opening in management with a big inrease in salary. Her family needed the income but she was very nervous and scared since she would become a supervisor to a great many men. She not sure she would be able to do this effectively. Now one could argue that since she was slave she should just take the position to please her owner and do her best but the reality is if you are used to always taking the orders , you can not just 'turn it off' and start giving the orders. The one that owned her uncollared her and made her his free companion. This forced her to view herself in a different light and to work toward developing the mindset of a free person. It was a way of retraining her to be able to succeed in her new position. He also actively worked with her daily to reinforce this. Do not mistakenly believe that just because she was now free that she was not still submissive to him. She got the new position, the family finances stabilized. He trained her to be able to use her new mindset at work then to unwind and find herself back at his feet. He then recollared her.
There is a saying that goes "if she was truly pleasing to a man she would have a collar around her neck". When I first heard this I was filled with glee, it made me feel so smug. Now that I have grown up alot more I have realised two things. The first being that free women are pleasing to men just in a totally different way. Secondly not all free women care about being pleasing to men.
The Owner always asks me "is it a need or a want?". Survival is a need and in order to survive we need to adapt and grow to adjust to the circumstances we find ourselves in. Some of us are very fortunate to have found a way to acheive both fulfilment of needs and wants in our relationship. I for one cherish each day that this is possible.

my best well wishes to you and Mr. Thorns
kisshou

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 16

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/11/2006 3:44:10 AM

MistressDREAD

Posts: 2932
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

amen Sabrina!

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 17

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/11/2006 4:35:52 AM

MasterFerdinand

Posts: 59
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Hell, or Texas...whichever...
Status: offline

I have to put in my two cents here...sorry.

In Gorean society, it seems to me, it should actually be up to the Master. Having said that, a Master should know his slave well enough to know if it fullfills her to be his slave. Some women are better off as FC, than slave. Some are better as FW, granted, this is an extreme minority. But the thing is, what's best for my girl? What's best for my household? And lastly, what's best for me?

I recently denied a slave the collar she sought, because she wasn't right for my household, and I felt that she would ultimately be unhappy here. As a matter of fact, I also told her that she should conssider being a pet, rather than a slave, because in my view, she seemed insincere about slave service. A Master should know whether he's dealing with a true slave before he agrees to collar her, in this world. That's the hard reality of it, we have to deal with this world's reality sets.

I'm happy for you sabrina, it seems like the right thing for your house, and for you. I hope it works well.

In any event, I wish you well

MasterF

_____________________________

Everyone seems normal, until you get to know them

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 18

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/11/2006 10:32:08 PM

SabrinaRising

Posts: 54
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline

Ok one post to address many:

Ferdinand: Thank you and so far so good...it is a constant work in progress...and often I feel "thrust out"...but I am getting there, and I have many good men to help me along the way. As for whether my husband should have collared me in the first place 9 years ago well there are two very distinct partial truths in that. And only time will tell what holds completely true.
1)The first of which, is we were brought into a Gorean enclave when we were 23 years old. At 23 years old you just don't know yourself very well. And I have seen men with my own two eyes come into their Dominance...so I know it is a growth process. Also, I would never; I don't honestly believe, have been able to be a GOREAN FC, and understood the nature of men and women, had I not been forced to my knees and trained as kajira, by good men. It was so foreign to my experience of life that I don't know I could have accpeted it all any other way.
2) Alot of what is unfolding in our life, is not necessary actionary, so much as reactionary to an extremely unnatural state we are being forced to live in. My husband is active duty Army and is currently on his fourth deployment to Iraq...and active M/s across 10 thousand miles...inside 12 funerals and moving from Lousiana to Washington and my becoming a very lucrative worker and going back to get my MBA...et all....well, much of what is transpiring is reactionary. This is how we can stay Gorean, which has become such an integral part of who we are in 9 years, stay in our community...and more importantly STAY TOGETHER.

Dread: "Holy cow the cow cow cow," as Raven says. All at once I am feeling like a bull in a china shop and a kid in a candy store...it is both exhilarating and annihilating at times...spending a lot of time at Papa's feet...giving After Action Reports and deciphering...but getting there.

'lil starshined: I think by and large how you feel about yourself and your innate belly is inconsequential. Your Master & your community if you have such will guide you where you are meant to be. I had stayed kajira...and by every account: beautiful, pleasing, good kajira for 9 years. Nothing is to say if it had not been my husband's wish and my communities wish that I stay so, I would not have. Here we truly practice "to each their best use". And it is beleived of me that this is my best use for my community. So, I have gone where leaded...a tad bit ungracefully truth be told...kicking and screaming and flailing about at times...but I trust them intrinsically. They are good, decent men..and they will not allow me to fail them, or myself.

And last but not least...the hottie patottie 'lil smilez: For my rambling reply you are most welcome girlie. You know, I like everyone, am a work in progress...when I get everything perfect, I will die...just like you will. That is after all what life is for: perfecting, learning, growth.

Be well E/everyone,

Sabrina King

(in reply to MasterFerdinand)

Post #: 19

RE: I just have to ask..... - 2/12/2006 10:56:20 AM

GingerleeDREAD

Posts: 103
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

how is it that one day one decides they are no longer that slave, but a free person? I am very confused on this one. How does that just turn off??

Here is My take on this smilezz: ( aside from Sabrinas reality. )
First lets address the gender with in the slaves.
established Male slave of Gor.
Male slaves of Gor are either natural slave or Free who have been enslaved against their wills in the Gorean mindset. The Male slaves of Gor who choose to serve at all times as a slave are looked down at as the lowest of the low because they are going against whats concidered the Natural Order of Male Gender Dominance and it is hoped that these men are striving and working on becomming Free at some point and it is encouraged for such males to work towards this. Any Man of Gor can become enslaved and be forced to be slave but this does not mean that they are with a slaves belly and at any given time can and will fight to become again Free. This can be on a physical leval or a mental one.

established Female slaves of Gor.
Female slaves of Gor are either natural slave or Free who have been enslaved against their wills or against their natural Dominance. The Female slaves of Gor who chooses to serve at all times as a slave are reveared and adored as a posession to be desired and Owned. They are not common either on Gor or in the real world for a slave belly is rare but complete and easily seen when found. Free Woman who are enslaved against their wills are forced to become slaves and will temp to do what they can to gain their Freedom again however it is discouraged and very hard for a woman once concidered a slave to be anything but such.Then there are the woman like Sabrina who the Master sees the natural Freedom with in them and choose to for what ever reason Free the slave.
There are situations where a slave is released to become the barer of children or to assit in tending to business, but most were Free Woman befor becomming enslaved and are released by the Free Men to take the place that the Men desire for them to become more naturally. Most of the choices do not come from the slave at all but from the Free that are around the slave who make such choices for that slave in either being enslaved or Free. slaves that
are natural slaves will never be set Free because they could not fuction in a Frees position. It usually are the Free enslaved that are refreed or a Free Man or Woman who for what ever reason feel that the slave they are releasing would be better a Free then a slave. JMO

_____________________________

"My inner children are all mean little fuckers"
"Get inbetween' em and youll get hogtied, hitched up, n hacked"

(in reply to smilezz)

Post #: 20

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