Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles



Message


Brule -> Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 7:17:11 PM)

Tal and greetings everyone.

I have never started a thread before and I hope that many on here will read the whole post and get the idea behind it before jumping. The idea came to Me tonight after a conversation with someone that was trying to disbute if another was Gorean or not.
In said conversation tonight I refered the person I was talking with to a person I call Brother to verify some miss quotes. The quotes of something that happened is not important. But what I think was important was that I was told My Brother is not a Gorean because he has never read any of the books.
My reply was , and maybe I am wrong and that is why I make this post, Gorean is what is inside a person and was described in a set of books written by JN. Gorean is not something you read about and become, it is what is inside you and you let come out. JN may have written about these ideas and brought them out for others to think about and say, yes He is right, thats the way I feel it should be, and thru the books We have found others that feel the same way. I can read a book on brain surgery but does that make Me able to do it?
I am not saying that quoting what was said in the book is wrong and the books do answer alot of questions. I am asking does who you are and what you do make you Gorean or is it that you have read a book or books that makes Us Gorean.
Just a question I would like some input on.

Brule

I wonder if the person that said reading makes you what you are would mind if I practiced some brain surgery?




Kimveri -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 7:29:12 PM)

Evening, Brule,

Essentially, I don't believe someone can be a thing without knowing what that thing is.

I don't think that reading about it is all that's needed, though. I think that someone has to RTFB in order to discover what Gorean philosophy & morality are for themselves, then they would have to assume that mantle, & then manifest the philosophy & morality in their daily life.

So while I don't think just reading a book can make someone capable of acting in accord with the content of the book, it can be the first step on a rather long journey to a life that exemplifies what they saw in that book.

IMO, knowing a thing is not the same as doing a thing & much of the best parts of the journey are to be found on the path between those two points.

I wish you well,

~Kimveri




KarRagnon -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 8:04:31 PM)

Evening Brule,
                   What ever the case as to why the person stated that whoever was or was not Gorean because they did not read the books. The first question asked should have been,...."Were you there to know if  He read the books or not or is this solely based on your opinion"? Reading the books is crucial to get the the base information of what these ideas are about but has absolutely no basis on how an individual applies this to His life. You as well as I know that we base our judgement of an individual not on someone else's word, but on meeting the individual. Simple as that!. Opinions are going to vary from one individual to another.




Trevelyan -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 8:20:14 PM)

Tal Brule,

Any "thing" is that "thing" because it has the characteristics of that "thing." A table is a table because it has a horizontal surface supported in space by one or more legs. An eagle is an eagle because it is a bird with a large beak, powerful talons and whatever other characteristics make an eagle.

In the books, JN describes the characteristics of a Gorean. I feel that it is important to read the books so that you can make your own determination of which characteristics make a Gorean. It is not enough to simply ask others for their opinion of the characteristics because of the telephone game effect. You know the telephone game - several people sit in a circle. One person whispers something in the ear of the next person, who then whispers it to the next person. By the time it gets back to the first person, the message has changed completely.

Once a person has read the books and formed their own interpretation of the characteristics that make a Gorean, they then must strive to embody those characteristics in their own life in order to be a Gorean.

So, in answer to your question, it is that you have read the books; and who you have become and what you do because of your reading that makes you a Gorean.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan





blacksword404 -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 8:27:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brule

Tal and greetings everyone.

I have never started a thread before and I hope that many on here will read the whole post and get the idea behind it before jumping. The idea came to Me tonight after a conversation with someone that was trying to disbute if another was Gorean or not.
In said conversation tonight I refered the person I was talking with to a person I call Brother to verify some miss quotes. The quotes of something that happened is not important. But what I think was important was that I was told My Brother is not a Gorean because he has never read any of the books.
My reply was , and maybe I am wrong and that is why I make this post, Gorean is what is inside a person and was described in a set of books written by JN. Gorean is not something you read about and become, it is what is inside you and you let come out. JN may have written about these ideas and brought them out for others to think about and say, yes He is right, thats the way I feel it should be, and thru the books We have found others that feel the same way. I can read a book on brain surgery but does that make Me able to do it?
I am not saying that quoting what was said in the book is wrong and the books do answer alot of questions. I am asking does who you are and what you do make you Gorean or is it that you have read a book or books that makes Us Gorean.
Just a question I would like some input on.

Brule

I wonder if the person that said reading makes you what you are would mind if I practiced some brain surgery?


Tal Brule,

Reading the books alone does not make you Gorean. Some read the books and decide that it is not who they are. And others read them and decide that that is them. If the stuff Goreans are made of is in you then the books allow you to recognize what it is you are and what name it goes by. If you have those qualities but never read the books then you would not be able to be called Gorean because you don't know what it is. 





JarlOlaf -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 8:38:54 PM)

Tal,

Interesting, but I see a bit of a hole in your analogy. 
quote:


I can read a book on brain surgery but does that make Me able to do it?


No reading a book will not make you able to do it, but, if you wish to do it you will have to read the book and put the knowledge into practice.  You could not become a brain surgeon without reading the book.  I think that it takes a great deal of effort and self discipline to become brain surgeon, and it takes effort and self discipline to "Become" Gorean. 

Could a man become the Pope with out reading the bible?  It is the foundation of their belief system, as surely as the books are the basis to the Gorean belief system,  (And no I am NOT saying that the Gor books are as significant culturally or spiritually as the bible, nor am I a wild eyed fundamentalist.)  What I am saying is, that a person my have similar beliefs, traits and characteristics to the Gorean philosophies, just as Honor can be found, or courage, or strength in people of all beliefs.  But those tendencies do not make them Gorean, any more than, because I have similar beliefs and attitudes as a Mullah, that would make me Muslim.  Without the reading and study of the Koran, to them I would be a tolerable Infidel at best.

Yes being Gorean comes from inside, but it also comes from the application of the knowledge in the books, the effort and discipline of applying that knowledge in your own life,  and by practicing the priciples daily.

Anyway, just my thoughts on it...

~sips all genteel like from his Horn of Mead, with pinky extended just so...

Olaf







Zevar -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 9:12:38 PM)

Greetings Brule:

In regards to your question(s) it is clear [IMO] that without reading the books for yourself one excludes valuable material that actually can contribute to forming a cognitive understanding of what Norman was actually writing about and how it connects with the present day living for a man.

It is helpful to actually know for yourself what the books are teaching in a metaphorical manner and practically speaking and so on and so forth. I do not think it is possible to fully transfer into living what the whole construct from which Norman wrote without reading for yourself and then formulating your views and opinions.

From the opposite view of not having read the books and simply living what a man knows is of the natural order and congruent with his innate understandings can too be true for some men. I for one was quite pleased when I happened upon the wiritings of Norman. I would disagree that one without the other is soley effective as it can be when joined in conjuction. The books work in cooperation with what a man knows if he does not fear himself in a western culture where it is not valued as it need be to be a man who dares to be a man without apology. I am of the thought that it is complimentary to the true nature of a man to read the books as there is much that is formulated when delving into the concepts which Norman presented throughout his writngs.

Further I do agree with you in that without living what a man knows and or reads in the books this surely reduces the effectiveness of his claiming anything "gorean". As it is so aptly stated as follows:

But the Goreans have a saying, which came to me in the darkness, in the hall, “Do not ask the stones or the trees how to live; they cannot tell you; they do not have tongues; do not ask the wise man how to live, for, if he knows, he will know he cannot tell you; if you would learn how to live, do not ask the question; its answer is not in the question but in the answer, which is not in words; do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so.” ~ {Marauders of Gor - 9}

In this quote it is evident that it is in the " do not ask how to live, but, instead, proceed to do so" that is at the core of what is essential in living as the men that Norman depicted in this series. Obviously this quote is not exclusive to the totality to what is gorean. I am not a man who seeks approval or sympathy/pity or to be validated for my views. I will though discuss in a rational manner differences as in doing so a man can always learn if he chooses to learn. Just as steel needs the fire to form it so does a man need intellectual/rational understanding to connect with his pragmatic perspective. [IMO] Many men could agree with this while others don't.

The question then arises, gorean or not? Did you read the books? Some will say Yes while some will say No and then of course their are men who are perpetually reading the books to simply posture a position of pseudo superiority it seems while other men read to learn beyond the appearance of Norman's writings. Sort of came down to " To hell with locker room behavior." I say live to the fullest without apology and yes I have read the books and remain so.

There is my input. Thanks for the thread Brule.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~




Saffleur -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/8/2009 10:29:24 PM)

Tal Brule,

It's always been my thought that in order to know what something is one must study it in order to identify it. I also believe that if you make a claim to be "something" whatever it may be that it was done with actual knowledge of what it is and respect for it.

The Brain Surgeon has a respect for his field, he has learned by book and experience together. Application of knowledge. This is applicable to anything in life. I won't say he isn't Gorean but I think he should study the roots he claims.

I wish you well,
Scott




Cherylmazana -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/9/2009 2:42:08 AM)

In my opinion reading the books is vital, but again this is just another product of our times. Everyone wants to have the appearance without the substance, its probably why our countries are all suffering from debt.

Cheryl




eponavet -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/9/2009 1:12:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Evening, Brule,

Essentially, I don't believe someone can be a thing without knowing what that thing is.

I don't think that reading about it is all that's needed, though. I think that someone has to RTFB in order to discover what Gorean philosophy & morality are for themselves, then they would have to assume that mantle, & then manifest the philosophy & morality in their daily life.

So while I don't think just reading a book can make someone capable of acting in accord with the content of the book, it can be the first step on a rather long journey to a life that exemplifies what they saw in that book.

IMO, knowing a thing is not the same as doing a thing & much of the best parts of the journey are to be found on the path between those two points.

I wish you well,

~Kimveri


Hi Kimveri,

I like your post and initially, i agreed with what you wrote.  But then, i started thinking (imagine that....[:-]...) and i was wondering what you might think about a slightly different view.  Actually, it's probably a mixture of what you and Trevelyan both posted.  For me, a thing is a thing, regardless of the labels or knowledge others may have about that thing.  An eagle is an eagle because, as Trevelyan said, it is a bird with a large beak, powerful talons and the other characteristics that make the "thing" we call an eagle.  And a human is a human, even if that human is part of a remote tribe in the amazon that has no knowledge of any other humans on the planet.  But....that human also identifies THEMSELVES as part of that tribe in the amazon and in fact may not ever think about the fact that they are just a human.  So they are both - a human and a tribesman.  They may be a good tribesman, a lazy one, maybe a prideful one or a healer.  So even within the tribe, they will have an addititonal identity that defines not only how they view themselves, but also how other tribesmen view them.  So, some of what they are is defined by the fact that they are human, some of it is defined by where they were born and some of it is made up of how they conduct themselves and what they identify with within their tribe.

For me...i was pagan before i knew what paganism was.  From the time i was a small child, i was drawn to Native American customs, i read about ancient Eygpt and Greece - i loved the Gods and Goddesses of Europe and couldn't get enough information at my local library about all of these intriguing cultures.  I danced under the moon, wrote poems about nature, was a happy hippie....and then, when i was 19 years old, while working at Waldenbooks, i read the book "Spiral Dance" by Starhawk.  And everything i believed and felt i was....was in that book!  I had never even heard of the word wicca, but what happened for me was that i had stumbled upon a group of written words that described ME.  She put words to my self identity - but i was who i was before i read the book.  Now, the book helped me grow further - made me realize that there WERE other resources - and people out there - where i could learn more. For me, that desire to learn more is what makes some people "live" a lifestyle, or philosophy versus the person who has those innate qualities but chooses not to make them an overt aspect of how they live their lives.  But...i do believe that the person who doesn't actively work or learn about what they are, is still "what" they are....they may be the equivalent of the lazy tribesman, but they still are a tribesman. 

And i think a few threads have mentioned things like this....meeting people who you can "tell" are Gorean, examples of strong ancestors who embodied what Norman wrote about - the women who homesteaded their families out west, the strong grandparents who persevered through the Great Depression.  Those people obviously never read any books about Gor, but weren't they probably some of the inspiration that Norman drew upon, as well as other examples of human behavior, both good and bad, when he put pen to paper and wrote these books?

When i stumbled upon the Gorean forums...and then started reading the books, Norman's words resonated with the way i identify myself.  But...as a lover of nature and as a slave.  The other parts of the books do not grab my soul the way they do for others who identify themselves as free.  Which is something i actually think is really cool and unique about this philosophy.  It is much more inclusive that it appears on the surface.  And the subtleties of some of his words are really inspiring.  So do i think RTFB's is vital to being Gorean?  I think a person who "is" Gorean will benefit from exploring the words that describe the philosophy that reflects their self identiy.  But, i do think there are people out there, maybe even people who either can't read, or don't have a computer, who are busy living a very Gorean lifestyle and might never even hear the word "Gor".  I don't think i'd be the person to tell them "what" they were...

Well wishes,

~ epona








Dinnardin -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/9/2009 1:19:11 PM)

The following may sound overly simplified, but it is how I see this...
You can be Gorean without reading the books...if your own personal philosophies and beliefs are in line with those we call Gorean.  HOWEVER (before the jumping down my throat starts)....you likely would not fully understand, nor appreciate what it is that you are...read the books, learn more about yourself, and you will grow in your Goreanism, learn more about yourself, and improve yourself in the process.

Gor is what you are, not what you know....but it still helps to know what you are, if that makes any sense....
so yes, reading is necessary.

John, AKA Dinnardin




Mitzie -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/9/2009 1:50:29 PM)

This is an interesting thread

                                       We often will have Debates on and offline amongst ourselves re the lifestyle and I have been known to say I believe there are people out there who do live there lives very similar to the philosophies in the books and they havnt read a book however like everyone else on here except the op I agree with you all and say that yes you should read the books how can you say your Gorean if you have not read the books.

Time after time people on here say read the books if you want to know about the Gorean lifestyle and  I agree.

    Mitzie




Musicmystery -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/9/2009 2:31:20 PM)

quote:

that is why I make this post, Gorean is what is inside a person and was described in a set of books written by JN. Gorean is not something you read about and become, it is what is inside you and you let come out.


Tal Brule,

This is the heart of your post, even labeled as such. I understand where you've coming from on this, I think, but I can only agree with it in part.

Yes, though we can see outer manifestations, Gorean is an inner quality. You seem to describe it as a thing, either something some people just have and allow to show, or something all people have and some people allow to come out (not sure which from your post). If it were as simple as that, though, we wouldn't have 27 books, and when new people come around, we could just give them a checklist, "Are You A Gorean?" or "Have You Let Out Your Inner Gorean?" and let them do their thing. I don't think so. Living as a Gorean is instead a process, as you indicate with "what is inside you and you let come out" but deny with "not something you read about and become."

When I read the books, I had already been long familiar with the cultural and philosophical references Norman uses as his basis, so yes, reading was at first largely recognition. But Norman doesn't merely report and mix, but rather examines, and his characters and social structures evolve over time. That's really the point, isn't it? To live a carefully examined life, one not merely embracing social conditioning, one more in tune with our natures and the order of nature in which we live. So we read, we think, we consider, and our thoughts and approaches to life evolve. Indeed, we become, we change, adapt, adjust, incorporate--we grow.

Certainly we have principles, constants, codes, but the application of those codes and principles will call for constant vigilance, continued consideration, an on-going examination of self and society.

Thus, I can entirely envision someone reading the books, considering carefully, and gradually adopting a life we would recognize as Gorean. I can't see someone just "letting something out" and being Gorean, except perhaps by improbable accident. The principles, the home stone, the codes--where would these be? And how could the result then be Gorean?

I'm always puzzled when new people come along, as they do from time to time, and announce a sudden interest in becoming Gorean, that this is the path for them, even though they've yet to read a book. How does such a decision come about? Based on what? Who would come along and say, "I've never read any of the philosophy, but I've decided to become an Existentialist. Where do I start?" No. I can understand curiosity, I can understand desire to learn--but these steps come first, before the Gorean. Otherwise, Brule, we might well say to some, "Hey, never mind! Turns out--you already ARE a Gorean! How about that?!"

No. No one can share in Gabriel Conroy's incredible epiphany at the end of Joyce's Dubliners, for example, without reading the stories first. Plenty of esources will offer overviews, but not the understanding to see and feel why this is such an incredible moment and experience, one that makes many readers consider Joyce's The Dead the greatest short story written and such a powerful conclusion to the work. And only long careful thought and reflection will bring absorption of truths and errors of our lives and society. Norman's Gor series is the same--it's a long, carefully thought out analysis of ourselves, our natures, and our societies and civilizations. Trying to understand "Gorean," let alone live it, just isn't possible without the read and the process.

Nice to see you post, Brule. I hope we see more.

Live well,

Tim





MissDominae -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/9/2009 5:18:47 PM)

Greetings all,
I am finding that merely reading the books is only the beginning, just as reading my medical texts for the first time did not prepare me to perform surgery.   In medicine I had to integrate by book learning with my understanding of physical structures, learn to examine and explore those structures and know them intimately.   Only then was the knowledge in the books of meaningful use.

The Gorean works are helping me understand the why's and the what's of the person I already am as well as the person I am becoming, and are giving me a framework within which I can integrate book learning with my experiential and anecdotal understanding of the world I live in.   Without the books this experience would be less revealing and far less simple to integrate into my life, just as in medical terms I could have learned surgery through trial and error but it was much easier to learn hands on with a solid framework of knowledge to fall back upon as needed.

Medical school took six years.   "Gor School" may take more time or less time; only time will tell.   My studies in medicine and in life experience will never end; neither will my explorations of who and what I am and the person I am becoming in both Gorean and general terms.   Life is an evolutionary process with so many possibilities of change.   The best way to grow is to accept change as inevitable and to do one's best to pursue it with focus, honesty and determination, accepting the 'whistle stops' along the way as integral parts of the overall journey.   That is what I am now doing, and why I am here.

I hope this hasn't confused too many people.

Be well ............ Olivia




Malkinius -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/9/2009 10:54:47 PM)

{Fast reply}

Tal and greetings all....

Yes, I have to add a few things as well and some of this has been covered, but not much of it.

First off....no one...and I mean absolutely no one can be Gorean who has never heard of it. They may have all of the ethical and philosophical beliefs of a Gorean and practice them well, but if they have never heard of it, then they can not BE it. It might only taking learning about being Gorean for them...and anyone who knows them...to decide they are Gorean. If that step is never made, they are not Gorean. If it is, they might be Gorean.

Second...is that no one is Gorean who does not self-identify as Gorean. This is followed by caveat that self-identifying as Gorean does not make you Gorean in the slightest. But if you know what it takes to be Gorean and say you are not Gorean, you are not Gorean. If you claim to be Gorean, then you have to prove it.

Third....being Gorean philosophically is not a Chinese menu. You don't get to pick one from column A and one from column B and two from column C and decide what parts you like and can follow and what parts you don't like and don't want to follow. Usually those who want to do that can't measure up to the parts they don't like and don't do. An exception to that may made for those working on measuring up but who haven't quite made it and are honest about it. Learning and practice come before internalizing any changes.

Fourth....the cultural or book/story line side of being Gorean is a Chinese menu. <grins> A Gorean must know the cultural side but does not have to practice it to be Gorean.

Fifth....becoming Gorean is a process and not a flip-the-switch instant thing. Instant Goreans aren't Gorean. Seeing one of those makes a nice fake to wannabe filter for that person. Seing someone like Olivia who is working at it and learning as she goes, on the other hand, indicates someone who gets it and who may succeed. (Sorry Olivia, I don't know if you will succeed but you are going about the right way to do so. You might decide some day this is not for you.)

Be well all.....

Malkinius





MissDominae -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/10/2009 10:55:35 AM)

No need to apologise for stating the truth Malkinius, and no offence was taken.   I have no idea if I will succeed or not as this early juncture either; I know only that I am determined to do my very best to understand, integrate and grow.   If success flows from that then that is wonderful.   If it guides me in a different direction then it is just as wonderful.   I am not here to be Gorean per se; I am here to learn about myself, examine the Gorean path and see if it IS for me, and become the best me I can be no matter what path I end up on.

Be well .......... Olivia




Malkinius -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/10/2009 12:27:30 PM)

Greetings Olivia....

That attitude is why I think you can make it. It shows you have what it takes. I hope you do. If nothing else, you will understand us and especially yourself much better.

Be well....

Malkinius





Brule -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/10/2009 5:46:20 PM)

The person in question has been around the Gorean lifestyle for about 10 years and does associate and consider Himself Gorean

Brule




KarRagnon -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/10/2009 9:14:46 PM)

Morning Brule,
                     After much thought and discussion, I feel that much more light has been shed on the situation at hand. I still stand by what I said when I posted on meeting the individual as to making assumptions as to whether or not an individual has qualities which are Gorean. The individual in question I discovered, I also call Brother and I'll be the first to tell you that I have found the individual to be more than worthy to call Himself Gorean. I have known the individual more than several years and finally had the chance to shake their hand and look them in the eye after having had many a discussion on the philosophies of the lifestyle online. Having met the Man, I found Him to be no different than He was when He and I spoke on the net. Matter of fact, when work and time permits, we often still converse and drink a beer or two around the fire come time for the Gathering. My thought on the matter.......Meet the Man before assuming anything!!!




barelynangel -> RE: Gorean or not Gorean,,,,,,can you read? (6/11/2009 4:50:21 AM)

Fast Reply

The way i see it is this -- someone who hasn't read the books more so studied them, and applied same to self as an identification of being Gorean -- to me they are incapable of validating themselves because of their knowledge of not only self but what they claim to be so they have to rely on validation of others who have only their interpretable knowledge of the material.  Is that Gorean?  grins it reminds me of the metaphor people use of lemmings.

What happens if the friendship fails because suddenly people who use to say that person is Gorean (even though they haven't read the books as in the instant discusion or even HAS in some cases) and this person starts being questioned as NOT being Gorean even though as friends they were validated as Gorean before and accepted as their identification, what knowledgeable basis does this person have to validate himself as a Gorean?  None -- all of his information is third party.  He has no personal knowledge of what the identification actually entails based on his personal interpretation and knowledge.  All he has is what he believes himself to be because it sounded cool at the time and his friends were doing it and explained it to him and told him he seems like one.

Sure someone can fake it until they make it so to speak, but why would someone who identifies as Gorean WANT too and why would they not want to seek personal knowledge of what they choose to identify as.  I mean if its THAT important to identify as Gorean and have others SEE him as Gorean (which i presume is now why he identifies as same) why would he not show the importance of that identification and READ THE BOOKS lol to say, yes, i have personal knowledge of what i  have applied to self.

I believe Goreans are capable if defining others as SEEMING like Gorean, but is it other's responsibility to define another as Gorean, or is it a person's responsibility to gain the knowledge of what they choose to identify as?  I would think Gorean Free would place this responsibility ON the person -- friend or not.

angel




Page: [1] 2 3   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.125