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[ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accuracy?... - 6/10/2009 4:14:05 PM

Zevar

Posts: 786
Status: offline

Greetings All:

While brevity is useful and a preference of mine when appropriate, I do not present this thread in such a manner. If you do not like a long thread then be forewarned.

In the past few days I have given considered thought to the various threads and postings in the Gorean Lifestyle Forum as many have I assume. I chose to contribute to a few threads. I acknowledge I have not began many threads overall on CM. Nor have I been an active member here until recently in terms of voicing an opinion or such. I do not have any formed friendships or the like with any of the Free here online. Nor do I boast or complain in mentioning this. I was until recently a reader only of the forum.

Usually by choice I tend to be methodical in my thinking processes which requires of me to observe everything I am considering in thought before reply. I tend to by choice guard my mental focus to be offered first toward that which I genuinely am interested in contributing toward, learning, leading and on and so forth. Therefore obviously as an individual I see the "proverbial glass of water" differently than the another might.

During the past few days and overall to date while reading and contemplating the various contributions in various threads I have witnessed solid debating from some, which I highly respect and value, while posturing and illogical emotional outbursts in other different replies and references, etc.. I sincerely question the effectiveness of illogical thinking. As it goes with debating opinions VS opinions galore without any outcome that can be considered uniform overall regardless of the topic.

Personalities differ this goes without saying. As Free we are all different when it comes to how we assert our will, opinions and experiences etc. there will be common ground on some issues and naturally not on others. Surely to disagree does not exclude the character from whoever is debating with one another to then be deemed worthless. Instead I choose to disagree with the dignity that is afforded to the myself as a Free man.

In keeping with my reasoning to risk and begin this thread the main purpose is to bring about hopefully a productive and rational discussion on the following:

Why do some who claim to be "gorean' tend to present as all knowing "experts" who claim to hold the definitive mechanics of what is required to be deemed "gorean" and thereby publicly say as much directly "as though with indisputable accuracy?"

1) " I am “gorean” therefore I can as I choose to publicly humiliate, use all kind of vulgarities and harsh insults and in doing this I confirm my self appointed status as "I am better than you as a "gorean" for I am not a stranger and have passed the "gorean test."

2)" If I do not deem you "gorean" by my standards then you will be ignored by myself who is after all a real gorean"

3) " Since I am a real "gorean" I would advise you; don't listen to him or her because I have not judged them to be a real "gorean" and have found him or her to be fully a "fake and not likely to make it to the land of gor" therefore it is appropriate to deem he or she laughable, Ignore he or she and warn all real goreans. "

4) " I deem that you just might come to understand "US" real ‘goreans” and you just might make it. "

5) " I do not give a damn or give a shit about what you think or say you measly nobody who is not "gorean.” I will guarantee to hurl all sort of insults and vulgarities at you because I disagree with who I deem you not to be "gorean" and to my conclusion is to hell with you if you think I am rude and a barbarian, I am "gorean" look at me I beat my chest"

6) " I occupy the chair of authority as Ubar the Judge who comes on the scene every now and then just to judge and set everything toward the right way of living as a real gorean and if you do not bow to my powerful personality then you best know I have mass followers that I have taught and rule over which will surely bring about grave public sparring to deal with that in a harsh, rude and altogether ruthless way. I have spoken from the High Caste as Judge Ubar", all rise, you may cross your legs and kneel beasts.

Is it personality differences? Or could it be that some people see what they do in a distorted perspective or do some just simply believe they're superior over others and in having "RTFB" etc, thus feel validated in speaking for the "US" who identify with a framework of a "gorean lifestyle" ?

Perhaps it is just the human element for some to think of their knowledge as the cornerstone to whatever they might know/learn as superior and therefore self appoint their position in life to be over all others.

While I recognize and value the hierarchy that was evident in the writings JN. It is not so much transferable to the present day here on earth in many ways which surely does not include speaking for the Free as an "US" meaning all who claim to live a "gorean lifestyle." There are all sort of personality traits and mind-sets that are factored in attempting to better understand those interacted with, however nothing by means of personality or what have you will ever merit a surrender by anyone who is Free. { stating the obvious }

I am genuinely questioning the dynamics I witness played out in the forum and question the goal in doing so for those who tend to take center stage and speak collectively for "US." I ask; What is the purpose for those who do such, if any?

In closing:

I do appreciate a difference of viewpoints do not "hear" me wrongly. I enjoy forthright discussion. I value others who have something to add to or enrich my life with from their experience etc.. I simply do not condone or value someone who speaks for the "US" from a self appointed illusionary position [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accuracy?"] thereby claims to live a "gorean lifestyle" and speaks for the "US" when for obvious reasons when attempting to speak from an illusionary premise thereby this sort of conversing obliterates futile utterances of the kind.

If you disagree with the content presented in this thread I ask you to rationally present your reasoning in a manner that will facilitate the possibility for a productive debate. If you on the other hand simply desire to speak in a manner which demeans and hurls all kind of insults and vulgarities, I will not reply to any versions of this as by nature it excludes the possibly of an intellectual rational position to exchange ideas, ideologies, perceptions, etc.. A barbarian I am not. Gentleman more so when required to choose.

" I thought of many of the Goreans I knew, with their chains and whips, and their naked, collared slaves, kneeling apprehensively before them. Those fellows, I thought, would probably not count as gentlemen. On the other hand, I knew Goreans, too, who would surely count as gentlemen and their slaves were treated in much the same way, if not more so. Their gentlemanliness tended to be manifested in the exquisite and exacting refinements expected of their females, for example, in costume, appearance, behavior, deportment and service, not in any weakness exhibited towards them. Indeed, many Gorean slave girls fear terribly that they might be purchased by a “gentleman”. Such can be very difficult to please."
{Players of Gor - 360}

"To be sure, I had been in Torvaldsland, and I felt that I knew as much as any fellow there about what to do with a woman at his feet. But then any true master anywhere knows as much. Indeed, although the men of Torvaldsland are fine and strong masters, they are generally rather direct and straightforward about what they are doing. In the south, in the cities, in my opinion, because of the richness in history and tradition, and the much greater cultural sophistication and complexity, a female is likely to find herself placed under a much stricter and more exacting bondage than in the north. To be sure, much depends on the girl and the master. Some girls thrive best with uncompromising barbarian masters who will put them on the oar or under the whip at the least sign of their being displeasing and others find that they did not truly understand helplessness and submission until they found their chain fastened to the couch ring of a gentleman."
{Mercenaries of Gor - 347}

Thank you.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~

[edit due to grammer/typo errors ]

< Message edited by Zevar -- 6/10/2009 4:49:31 PM >

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
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Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

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A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/10/2009 8:15:57 PM

JarlOlaf

Posts: 186
Joined: 5/15/2005
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You dumb son of a *&%^*&%#(&&%#****....
Oops, my bad, I should be a Gentleman…

I take no small offense at being insulted and denigrated in your post for my audacity of possessing an opinion and feeling that this may be the proper forum to express it. Even we poor, dumb Torvie Barbarians do indeed possess dignity and dare I say it, a certain degree of nobility.
I do not claim to be anything other than myself, I am certainly not a scholar of all things Gorean, have never claimed to be infallible or perfect by any means. I do however possess a slight degree of knowledge of the ways and customs and philosophies of Gor. Do not confuse my rather humorous, blunt, and direct manner for a lack of intelligence or mental prowess.
I found your “points” rather condescending and insulting in general and in some cases in particular.

quote:

1) " I am “gorean” therefore I can as I choose to publicly humiliate, use all kind of vulgarities and harsh insults and in doing this I confirm my self appointed status as "I am better than you as a "gorean" for I am not a stranger and have passed the "gorean test."

Where does it say that I should be polite to strangers, particularly those that come in and immediately start to spew all manner of nonsense based on their vast experience of having read a web page by someone they met on VooDoo chat? Why would I care what his or her opinion is when it is contrary to the philosophies that can be found if you bother to RTFB. Am I bound to respect every random Ass-clown that has managed to figure out how to use the Shift key on their keyboard?

quote:

2)" If I do not deem you "gorean" by my standards then you will be ignored by myself who is after all a real gorean"

No but again, why would I pay any attention to someone that does not know their ass from a hole in the ground?

quote:

3) " Since I am a real "gorean" I would advise you; don't listen to him or her because I have not judged them to be a real "gorean" and have found him or her to be fully a "fake and not likely to make it to the land of gor" therefore it is appropriate to deem he or she laughable, Ignore he or she and warn all real goreans. "

This is not high school; a “real Gorean” is quite capable of making up his or her own mind. I do have neither the time nor the inclination to act like a little girl and play he said she said games, and find that you chose to imply that I would as a personal insult.

quote:

4) " I deem that you just might come to understand "US" real ‘goreans” and you just might make it. "

Wow, someone offered a bit of encouragement to someone that is making an effort to learn. They should both be beaten and burned at the stake. I really do not see what the problem is with offering encouragement… must be a Gentleman thing. We Barbarians are too dense for such subtleties I guess.

quote:

5) " I do not give a damn or give a shit about what you think or say you measly nobody who is not "gorean.” I will guarantee to hurl all sort of insults and vulgarities at you because I disagree with who I deem you not to be "gorean" and to my conclusion is to hell with you if you think I am rude and a barbarian, I am "gorean" look at me I beat my chest"

Again with the slam on us Torvies… Did I raid your homestone and piss in your Capn Crunch? If I did it was only to steal the gold and women, nothing personal. Oh and if someone tosses insults in my direction, yes I do fire back. You know what a bunch of violent miscreants we Northmen are.

quote:

6) " I occupy the chair of authority as Ubar the Judge who comes on the scene every now and then just to judge and set everything toward the right way of living as a real gorean and if you do not bow to my powerful personality then you best know I have mass followers that I have taught and rule over which will surely bring about grave public sparring to deal with that in a harsh, rude and altogether ruthless way. I have spoken from the High Caste as Judge Ubar", all rise, you may cross your legs and kneel beasts.

The only one I worry about teaching is my slave, and I teach her to be MY slave. Goreans in general do not make great followers, in my experience. Yes there are those I call friends, and it takes a long time to join that group. Over the many years I have been involved in the Gorean Community, both on line and off, I have argued points with many people, and managed to piss off more than a few on occasion. Many of the ones I have pissed off are now friends. Just because they are friends does not mean I do not piss them off either. And if I am harsh on occasion, well so what? Gor is a harsh place.

Many of them were giants, huge men, inured to cold, accustomed to war and the labor of the oar, raised from boyhood on steep, isolated farms near the sea, grown strong and hard on work and meat and cereals. Such men, from boyhood in harsh games had learned to run, to leap, to swim, to throw the spear, to wield the sword, to wield the ax, to stand against steel, even bloodied, unflinching. Such men, these, would be the hardest of the hard, for only the largest, the swiftest and finest might win for themselves a bench on the ship of a captain, and the man great enough to command such as they must be first and mightiest among them, for the men of Torvaldsland will obey no other. pg 38 Marauders of Gor

You most certainly are not a Barbarian; you may well be a gentleman. And I beg to differ that the gentleman’s way is in any way superior to the Torvaldsland method of Mastery, or that some pampered little silk girl compares at all to the unbridled passion and complete submission of a bondmaid.
"How incredibly feminine they were, so living and uninhibited and delightful, so utterly fresh, so free, so spontaneous, so open in their emotions and the movements of their bodies; they now moved and laughed and walked, and stood, as women; pride was not permitted them; joy was" pg 100 Marauders of Gor

~Mutters something about using the word Barbarian like it is somehow a bad thing... Catches a whiff of myself, turns a shade of green, and tells my girl to draw a bubble bath for me.. And dont forget the scented candles.....

~grabs his towel, Horn of Mead and his Rubber Ducky...

Olaf

edited because I freaking felt like it

< Message edited by JarlOlaf -- 6/10/2009 8:23:43 PM >

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And celluloid heroes never really die.

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/10/2009 8:22:07 PM

Dinnardin

Posts: 368
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you changed joy's name to rubber ducky?

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/10/2009 9:05:49 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
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Tal Zevar,

While I am sure that I have been guilty of a couple of those in my days of posting, I do try not to get down in the mudslinging... It does happen from time to time, and I make no apologies for it, after all I am simply a man.

That being said, I believe that many of the conflicts occur for one of two reasons... The first being that there are many alpha types floating around these venues, and the spirit of the rutt takes over. Usually there is a good blow up or 3 every few months, and things settle down as the wounds heal. The second, is a bit deeper. It is that each and every one of us (there I go again) has learned whatever truths for themselves (or at least hopefully that is how they learned them). To concede a personally learned truth is incorrect, is a very personal thing. Some cannot phatom the thought that a particular belief is not only wrong but that it isn't shared by others.

Too, it could relate to simply trying to defend what is seen as a secondary home and friends. I know there are times in which I become extremely sensitive to new folks and the baited traps that they attempt to lay. This is something that I became conditioned to, after the long years of various folks dropping in at Gorean message boards just to pick a fight. Is that defensive response the right thing to do? Sometimes. As I have stated, I am working on becoming more open minded, and trying to see things from another's point of view, if only so that I can understand myself and my own thoughts better.

I am not sure things will ever change, but I do applaud you for this topic. It is one that may be fruitful.

I wish you well,
Thadius

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/10/2009 9:28:47 PM

Unbuilder

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
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Greetings Zevar,

I'm gonna start this reply with a quote that appears from time to time early in the series,
"In the Gorean language the word for stranger is the same word that is used for enemy"
Perhaps that is not the exact language that is used in the books, but the meaning is clear. It was something very similar that greeted me, on my first foray into "online Gor" and *I* found it comforting, cause it meant that the individual who initiated that message, and I, had read the same books, we were operating out of the same.... background. Whether or not that individual and I see things eye to eye, we have that common background.

In my first post to this venue, I posed a question....

Where the fuck is the imperative?

Because, I felt like the language used in the OP allowed for some sort of negotiation. And being Gorean... ain't something that you can negotiate.Ya either feel the imperative, or you don't. If the imperative ain't there, then the Gorean ain't either.

OK, I'm a judgemental asshole, but.. why would I give a shit... The Gorean word for stranger is the same word as the Gorean word for enemy.

I think if you can wrap your brain around that single concept, that all of the questions that you posed... would be answered. I could be wrong, hell, I been married twice, both times "til death do us part" and yet... to the best of my knowlege, both of them women are still breathing. Certainly they were the last time *I* saw them.

To be blunt, this particular thread, and a fair number of your previous posts... strike me as being attempts to "begin negotiations" and... I for one ain't willing to negotiate. You either feel the imperative, or you don't. Kudos if you take one approach, yer the village idiot if you take the other. Awww shit... did I actually say, or type, that out loud?

This post is prolly gonna cost me some points with the ACLU.

Be well
Unbuilder

_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/11/2009 11:35:18 AM

Zevar

Posts: 786
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Tal Thadius:

I am certainly yet again not in line with brevity. With that being said I do reply as follows:

When I began this thread it was not with the motive to assign blame or guilt nor is it now. I was simply questioning from a standpoint of trying to gain a clearer understanding into some of the dynamics I witness in this forum from time to time. Your reply has offered a different perspective that I found helpful. I do not at all dismiss any approach another man might present with a stamp of guilt or such. I do not operate as this. I will ask questions though without apology as should every man if he deems it right.

I more than likely more so take issue with anyone who excuses inappropriate and unacceptable behavior that divides and conquer with no reason other than to speak for another man. Every man can speak for himself. The choice of the terminology " Us goreans" is the primary term that I was protesting. No man needs to speak for any man be he "gorean" or not. I cannot imagine any man promoting or condoning any man speaking for him without his authorization.

JN authored the quotes regarding stranger/enemy as follows:

Strangers:
" The Gorean is suspicious of the stranger, particularly in the vicinity of his native walls. Indeed, in Gorean the same word is used for both stranger and enemy."
Page 49 - Outlaw of Gor

Regard of Enemies:

" Goreans enemies, if skilled, often hold one another in high regard."
Page 70 - Marauders of Gor
______________________________________________________________

When I began to post in this Gorean Lifestyle Forum obviously I was aware of this particular stranger/enemy concept presented by JN. Further each and every one who presented which I read were/are strangers. I had/have not ever met anyone at all who participates in the forum. Neither had/have they met me. I did not need nor do I now require another man to tell me I am a stranger to him. It goes without much need to process that without meeting and demonstrating one to another through word, action and deed that any man is who he claims to be. I could not fathom anything less that would facilitate such.

Yes! I am a stranger to a man that I have not met. However this seems irrelevant if the point is to remain as strangers. For some men this stranger concept somehow seems to boast the ego therefore the seeming position above another man, so it appears. I do not share this kind of approach when it comes to men I have not yet met. I could care less if a man is a stranger to me. This means nothing to me whatsoever when it comes to determining if his character is as he claims. There are far too many men that I have known in person over the years that were in my own back yard so to speak which turned out to not be even not half the men in character that they claimed regardless of their notion to the contrary.

Obviously there is a fair amount of reasonable caution exhibited in dealing with strangers. However the only way to eliminate the concept of stranger/enemy between those who are strangers to one another is to be willing to get to know one another. This involves risking who we are total strangers among a whole host of issues that can surface in the process of getting to know those who are strangers.

I prefer to not take the concept of stranger/enemy out of context and then self appoint myself to speak for everyone or anyone on the mechanics of what is required to be a real "gorean.' Alpha or not this is not a self appointed position. If other agree or not that does not diminish the relevancy of respecting the right of each man to speak solely on his own behalf.

Another obvious as I stated in a factual manner herein , again I don't know anyone here as much as no one knows myself. The point in reiterating this is that my words are posted here as are other Free men. I am the same man in person as other Free men claim to be in person. Therefore to me it is a moot issue to come from a standpoint that merely divides what could be otherwise undivided thus lending to that which might become more useful than division.

In reading your reply your post did assist in shifting my thought to recognize that perhaps those who do what had become questionable, my doing so was and remains only to gain a better understanding, is done out of a place that perhaps might be guarded highly as a personal truth. I agree that it requires to be willing to change sometimes what seems to be highly regarded "truths" to shift from any position that is valued as personally cherished or what have you. In some instances it might just seem the right thing to do for some to defend their position however they deem that works for each man. Understand I respect autonomy in the next man as I do in myself. I do not however accept any man speaking for myself. I take issue with this sort of conduct be it among where ever I might be.

I have touched on points in my reply which came forward in my considering your thoughtful reply. While you did not touch on all of the points, I replied from a comprehensive view, I acknowledge. It is important for the sake of clarity to acknowledge this to prevent any confusion for yourself or whoever might read my reply to you. I very much value level headed logical well thought out interchanges that are solid and not simply "down in the dirt" kind of exchanges. I viewed your approach to rather helpful and did bring to "light" a few things I did willingly consider. For which I am grateful for. As I recall I have never much cared for the sort approach of posturing to prove or endorse your manhood by way of vulgar speech and conduct that is also willing to become violent else you are not a man. Self defense is a whole other motive.

Usually by mere size and my in person countenance I tend to reduce the possibly of these sort of encounters physical brute brawls overall. Don't get me wrong. I have had my share of brute force on occasion when it was merited for reasons of self defense/welfare. However when it comes to mental might I prefer to discuss in a manner which affords the due dignity toward every man regardless of the position a man might take on any issue. With that being said I genuinely appreciate the opportunity to have exchanged words one to the other. I will say that I applaud you Thadius for risking to do the out of the ordinary with a mere stranger. myself.

Closing thought:

As I stated herein above, "Understand I respect autonomy in the next man as I do in myself. I do not however accept any man speaking for myself. I take issue with this sort of conduct be it among where ever I might be." Therein the issue remains. On this point I will never concede. Each man speaks for himself. I recognize not all men are the same as I noted in my Op. This is a part of what is natural for each individual man. I cannot imagine any other way than naturally be the man I am. Not that I will agree with what is natural for the next man nor he I. I will though give the respect due for his autonomy as I do for mine.

Perhaps this topic will become fruitful more than likely not though. If so, I can hope it does in a fruitful manner that strengthens each man all the more however he approaches his life as he deems fit and naturally without apology yet always willing to understand the next man as he too wants to be understood. In doing so hopefully not omitting a clear understanding that to speak for another man never produces what could be rendered fruitful, well at least not a fruitful that can prove to be nourishment which lends the sustainability of each man undivided in the natural order of life. [IMO]

As you can see much thought was generated in a good way. Perhaps might even be termed as "fruitful."

"The men of Gor," she said, "are strong. They are not weak and divided against themselves. They are not tortured. They are integrated and coherent, and proud. They see themselves in the order of nature. They see females as females, as slaves, and themselves as men, as masters. If we do not please them they punish us, or slay us. We quickly learn our place in the order of things. Only where there are true men can there be true women." Page 100 - Rogue of Gor

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~

< Message edited by Zevar -- 6/11/2009 12:12:06 PM >

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Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

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A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/11/2009 11:38:05 AM

Zevar

Posts: 786
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Tal Olaf:

Much of what I needed to say has been said in my Op and my lengthy reply to Thadius. I did want to say to you Olaf that nothing I posted was personally derived or aimed toward anyone specifically. Although we have definite differences this does not in any way reduce either of us as men by nature. I remain the man I am as do you without apology. I have always enjoyed your postings and more then likely this will remain intact regardless of any disagreement. Without the opposite view life can become rather mundane and lacking in zeal. [IMO]

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/11/2009 11:43:29 AM

Zevar

Posts: 786
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Tal Unbuilder:

I touched on my viewpoint of the stranger/enemy concept that JN authored in a general manner in my lengthy reply to Thadius. I do not pretend to expect anything from anyone. Acceptance can only be found within which is unfading and worth the many battles in climbing each mountain that is needed to be conquered.

For myself I have found that without inquires there is no way to ever expect to arrive at a more formulated viewpoint. I welcome self examination of myself without hesitation which can only result in my betterment as a man.

"What the f*ck is the imperative", you asked? Surely it is something different for each man and depending on the situation. [IMO] Do not concede or negotiate away that which seems natural and a personal truth for some while to others, well I will leave it at that for now. Lest the waters will stir to waves and depths that I am not willing to tread at this point with the stranger/enemy concept not discussed one to another, Man to Man.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/11/2009 12:26:45 PM

Mitzie

Posts: 688
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline

Tal Zevar

I was going to ask you this via cm but you dont have an active profile.

I am curious about this

quote:

3) " Since I am a real "gorean" I would advise you; don't listen to him or her because I have not judged them to be a real "gorean" and have found him or her to be fully a "fake and not likely to make it to the land of gor" therefore it is appropriate to deem he or she laughable, Ignore he or she and warn all real goreans. "

Have you actually had people tell you this ?

If the above was said to me my reply would be that I judge the person not by what others say but by what I see and hear from the said person.

This forum can be very clicky fall out with one of the clicky set and you can be sure before long the others will fall out with you.

You dont seem to be afraid to speak your mind amongst the regular FM on here be you wrong or be you right .

Thats a good starter.

well wishes

Mitzie

_____________________________

"The free should not be slave, and the slave should not be free," he said. "I do not understand," she said. "Just as it is wrong for the properly free to be enslaved," he said, "so, too, it is wrong for the properly enslaved to be free."PoG

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/11/2009 1:51:12 PM

Zevar

Posts: 786
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie

Tal Zevar

I was going to ask you this via cm but you dont have an active profile.

I am curious about this

quote:

3) " Since I am a real "gorean" I would advise you; don't listen to him or her because I have not judged them to be a real "gorean" and have found him or her to be fully a "fake and not likely to make it to the land of gor" therefore it is appropriate to deem he or she laughable, Ignore he or she and warn all real goreans. "

Have you actually had people tell you this ?

If the above was said to me my reply would be that I judge the person not by what others say but by what I see and hear from the said person.

This forum can be very clicky fall out with one of the clicky set and you can be sure before long the others will fall out with you.

You dont seem to be afraid to speak your mind amongst the regular FM on here be you wrong or be you right .

Thats a good starter.

well wishes

Mitzie

Tal Mitzie:

Correct. I do not have an active profile by choice any longer. I took it down as it is useless for me. I am here only for the message boards. FYI- In the future if you elect to send a private message to anyone who does not have an active profile this can be accomplished if they have posted in the forums by clicking the icon at the bottom of the page which is the PM Icon to send an email. [Did not know if you knew this or not.]

Now regarding your question:

quote:

” Have you actually had people tell you this ?"

My reasoning in posting the 6 points I did, which was not an exhaustive list of examples, was for means of demonstrating the content, in part, of the thread. Overall nothing I posted was personally derived or aimed toward anyone specifically

Further from a basis of fact and not theory one could review the various postings here to confirm that indeed this sort of “one up on the stranger/enemy which equates to danger attitude” and speaking from an “Us” “goreans” mentality is actual and in some instances are in part supported through factual experiences. However as I stated nothing I posted was personally derived or aimed toward anyone specifically.

I appreciate you sharing your view of this forum and giving the heads up as "clicky." I am not the sort of man who relinquishes what is mine. I am self defined and strive to be boldly refined in all I do. I will not concede to meaninglessness. I am fearless in speaking my thoughts among anyone. I cannot imagine fearing to speak when it is right to do so.

[IMO] If fear were allowed to dictate the terms of rightful freedom then there would be no room within a man to be the man he is. He would then run the risk of bowing to personalities that posture. What a shame indeed it would be for a man to give up his freedom for any reason. Some things are not an option. My freedom is not up for negotiation.

I would have liked to have touched on some other points. However my work duties are at hand. At any rate I thank you for your input Mitzie.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/11/2009 6:06:58 PM

Unbuilder

Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
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Greetings Zevar

The question I posed, wasn't about "what", it was about "where". A fish of an entirely different feather.

Be well
Unbuilder

_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/11/2009 10:46:35 PM

Zevar

Posts: 786
Status: offline

quote:

Greetings Zevar

The question I posed, wasn't about "what", it was about "where". A fish of an entirely different feather.

Be well
Unbuilder

Tal Unbuilder:

Where VS What OR What VS Where

As 1+2 = 3 OR 2+1 = 3 However it is added, same answer.

* Within the "what" rather skillfully at that is where."

quote:

Unbuilder
In my first post to this venue, I posed a question....

Where the fuck is the imperative?

Go figure with any calculative method of choice. It is in the data entered that produces the desired outcome.

Onto a "A fish of an entirely different feather."

quote:

Unbuilder
I could be wrong, hell, I been married twice, both times "til death do us part" and yet... to the best of my knowlege, both of them women are still breathing. Certainly they were the last time *I* saw them.

Could be like an X wife, assumed by hypothesis only. Fish a man for all he is worth financially then Fly out on his money First Class to some unspoken "where." Could be comparable to: Dry humor VS Dry Ice.

Quite frankly I have zero investment in the answer you seek for your "where VS "what." For future references " do not reply " is undoubtedly the road to travel.

I wish you well,
~ Zevar ~

< Message edited by Zevar -- 6/11/2009 11:20:22 PM >

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

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RE: [ Us VS I - "as though with indisputable accur... - 6/14/2009 2:23:55 PM

Zevar

Posts: 786
Status: offline

FR:

Summary:

To summarize the inquiries in this thread I began it appears that there are those who cherish their duteous fought for beliefs/personal truths. Obviously this is understandable for some. In considering the differences it is clear that for some when exposed to anything to the contrary might feel threatened thus act in a defensive manner in response to those unknown. While others have learned to consider the thoughts of others, known or unknown, and in doing so find their choice does not compromise their cherished beliefs when handled with due diligence and discernment.

Then there are those who for one reason or another who just cannot phantom not being center stage in anything and all they do and consider this sort of way to be termed, "alpha." Much like an acting out adolescent that will not stop infringing on the rightful freedom of those he or she might consider to be weaker therefore a target to war against and in doing so these kind of bully personalities get a false sense of power that they carry with them into adulthood.

Therefore personalities who refuse to find or accept the possibility of any common ground of rightful freedom with others who are Free and instead look for ways to defeat others, puts them in a position to be excluded from truly experiencing fully living. There are many reasons why this happens if clinically analyzed however from a perspective of human opinion for most it could be simply based in not being able to denounce being emotionally detached thereby lacking what is required to genuinely interact with others regardless of the array of human emotional responses within and from those around them.

For some the only way to have any sense of identity or personal power in their life is to cling tightly to a fictional premise that supports all kind of distortions seeking to be condoned regardless how it is accomplished. A premise that is solely based on what is not capable to ever be considered actual, real or genuine is of no real measurable value. Even when brought out for self examination for some there is an internal “hellish war” that is pursued with the goal of keeping that which is concealed in a place that cannot be reached or changed at any cost.

A place from which inappropriate ways are condoned is never a place that has room for those of another kind of thinking. Without the willingness and ability to “sift the wheat from the chaff” the internal lenses remain foggy with a mist that appears to be a common part of daily life, when in fact it is what separates and alienates that which possesses the ability to enrich.

Aspiring to “gorean lifestyle” does not erase humanity from anyone. The humanity of each individual is and will always be an intact element that cannot be avoided or erased. By adopting and adapting oneself to any philosophy does not wash away the personality traits of an individual. Therefore neglecting ongoing self examination does nothing more than to produce an outcome that surely cannot equate anything worthy of claiming to be a quality of manhood, “gorean” or not. Some may choose to ignore what is presented here all together, while some might protest vehemently and then there are those who tend to ignore certain ones who present here an in doing so deem themselves to be "true gorean." When in fact the truth of it is there will never be such a man, woman or child who is truly ‘gorean” as depicted in the books composed by JN. It can be surmised that some claim they are “real goreans” with “ real gorean minds” and say such to condone their cherished personal beliefs yet when exposed are like that of mothballs eaten by hordes of locust, lacking substantiality in reality and or anything scientifically provable to society on the whole.

In part JN suggests to the contrary that “goreans” do what is natural and have not been taught to reduce or ignore their natural way of living so forth and so on. However in society on Earth is where all interactions occur as men and women of Earth. There is no real possibility to reproduce what has already been incubated to become by nature. Therefore as stated in part herein above, “there will never be such a man, woman or child who is truly ‘gorean” as depicted in the books composed by JN.”

This is not mere theory, it is fact by way of nature here on Earth in all human beings, man, woman or child. I can only assume most would agree and do not strive to do live on a fictional planet “gor.” Point in fact the writings of JN are considered to have produced a “cult” following when read about from various different professional perspectives. Indeed there are tendencies of “cults” that do appear in the various “gorean sects” or “groups/forums” that enjoin one to the other and are reflective of “cult like” tendencies according from various different professional perspectives. {Much to say on that subject for sure, perhaps in a thread with a different content }

Closing thoughts, etc.. :

Much was mentioned herein about beliefs. What beliefs you might ask? Only through self examination can anyone truly know. To do any less would lend itself toward a self delusional theory merely by nature itself when the stones are left unturned. In doing so the unfounded fears of “stranger” seems to vanish under the microscope of our own humanity and through the lenses of rightful freedom.

An effective accurate measurement from a standpoint of “humanness” can be accomplished through genuinely being willing to be totally honest in word, action and deed. Hopefully arriving at an approach that is also by rule that which is equally fair for each one and for all who are Free. No less, no more. Human first then “gorean” or is it “gorean” first and then human? Rather is it even possible to ever be what could be deemed as a “true/real gorean?“ Food for thought.

Thanks to those who did contribute, regardless of the level of agreement or not. Each one contributed to the whole of the equation that is measured. Like a drop of water is to the ocean is each one who speaks for themselves.

Remember without each and every drop of water in the vast seas and oceans there would be barrenness alone. Dust and only dust. Regardless, in the nutshell never forsake or surrender the rightful freedom bestowed upon each one who is Free to allow another to be a “self appointed spokesman” for all who are Free. Else where is the rightful principle of Freedom/ Free will: the ability to exercise freedom/free will and make choices independently of any external determining force?

Thank you.

I wish you well,

~Zevar~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

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