xBullx
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ORIGINAL: Trevelyan
Tal Bull,
On a personal note you might be interested in: I am doing some business with an older gentleman. As we were doing our business he said "so you were a soldier once, weren't you? So was I." I asked him when he had been a soldier. January 1942 thought January 1946. I asked him what unit he was in. C/1/505th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 82nd Airborne Division! He is quite proud of the fact that it was still June 5th, 1944 when he landed in Normandy. Turns out he is mentioned by name in The Longest Day. Pretty cool, eh!
Now that's awesome! I can only imagine the thrill in talking with him. I love looking into the eyes of old warriors as they recapture their past glory. Hoowhaaa!! The 5th aye, so I'm guessing he might have been a Pathfinder? Awesome!!! He'd be one of the men that earned us our nic, "America's Guard of Honor". Tell him "All the Way" and thanks for the history.
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Ok. Gorean Freedom. I think that Norman's central thesis in his books is that nearly everyone in modern day North America is unhappy, unhealthy, and unfulfilled because they try to live their lives in accordance with (IAW) politically correct fictions about how human beings are, rather that IAW with the truth of our nature. Norman presents the Free Gorean, in several different Gorean cultures, as the epitome of humans who do live IAW the way people actually are.
What are the characteristics of a free Gorean:
- They are sovereign in their personal territory
- They identify with, love and are allegiant to their community
- They identify with and take pride in the work that they do, and perform that work eithically and excellently.
- They subscribe to a particular notion of right and wrong:
* they assume that people are not equal, not the same, but quite different in many ways.
* they are bent toward conquest and defiance
* they strive to exhibit honor, courage, hardness and strength
* they agree with the statement "We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to me; then we will be the same."
* they also agree with the statement "Be strong, and do as you will. The swords of others will set your limits."
Someone in the books who meets those characteristics is considered to be free. If someone in the books does not meet those characterisics, they are either an outlaw or a slave. This is true in all of the various cultures Norman presents (Torvaldslanders, Red Hunters, Red Savages, etc.) in addition the the dominant Gorean culture of the cites. Perhaps expressed a little differently, but still present.
(I should throw in here that I am making these assertions after long study of the books, and I can back up any of the points I am making with book references. I am just skipping it here because I am on my lunch break.)
Norman is telling us that if we live in accordance with these characteristics we will be happier, healthier and more fulfilled because we will be living in accordance with the truth about what makes people happy, healthy and fulfilled.
Now, does this mean just do anything you want? Well, within the parameters of the characteristics, yes. But, if you choose not to work, or not to be part of your community, for example, then no. Gorean freedom is freedom within the characteristics, not absolute freedom.
I believe you yourself are a prime example of why there is the regarded importance of reading the books in order to grasp a personal understanding of what is Gorean. You have certainly earned what it is you understand.
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Although this has generated a sometimes contentious but I think productive discussion, I feel that free Goreans "dispise" slaves because they do not live up to the characteristics of a free Gorean. I think part of the reason for the disagreement here is the way most of us think of the word "dispise." I think the best way to understand this word is as the opposite of the word "respect." If I am a Gorean in the books, and I meet another man or woman who displays the characteristics of a free person, I will "repect" them, and consider them to be at least roughly my equal. If I meet a slave, they will not display the characteristics; I will not respect them or consider them my equal. Instead I will consider them to be inferior and I will "dispise" them.
One other note about dispising slaves - If I am a Gorean free man, I will despise slaves, male and female. However, lets say I own a female slave. If I am any kind of a Gorean, I will ensure that she is absolutely obedient and exquisitely pleasing to me. Since she is my possession, I will want to know all about her, be facinated with her and perhaps even be proud of my possession of her. I may even fall in love with her. But I will not "respect" her as an equal, I will despise her. This is why so many of the male characters in the books (Rask, Clitius, etc.) become so upset when they realize they are falling in love with a slave. It seems like a contradicition to us, but a Gorean can despise a slave because she is a slave, and still be crazy with desire and love for her.
You have given as good of explanation for the Gorean perspective of the word despise as I have ever seen, at least in the context you had mentioned. I still have not yet been able to wrap my mind completely around the idea it embodies. I agree that the Gorean free man will not respect a beast that could surrender its freedom for the hope of comfort or clemency.
I personally feel contempt for a man or woman that would surrender to slavery to simply escape personal accountability or responsibility. But are these transgressions against their humanity or their nature or is it their nature to do so? I would despise such a person; but on a side note while we can despise the mastered woman for her surrender of liberty, is it really a transgression against or considerations of freedom or should we simply value her for what she is. I was once asked if I despise my dog for being a dog. No it is after all only a dog, much the same as a kajira is only that, a kajira. Simply because an individual takes human form similar to another, does that imply that all humans are created the same?
Men and women are obviously different and not equal to one another in so many ways. But perhaps the answer dwells deeper than just male and female. The Kur might have been used to illustrate this point. They had the breeders and the nurturers. Both what I perceived to be their representation of females yet naturally separate brands of beast.
It might be part of humanities problem is that we like to organize, group or cluster things to maintain order and simplistic definition. This in turn makes it easy for the majority, yet denies acceptance or understanding for all.
Now I'm not implying that this means that Gor can be or is anything or everything to any and everyone. I believe it has been witnessed I think contrary to that. But I do believe that beyond the concept of the "Sames" (those pathetic creatures in the Barrens) Norman would like us to consider the event of all things possible within our basic humanity.
What does it really say in our personal DNA strands?
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(Bull, I know that one of your favorite characters is Jason. Mine too. Remember how much trouble he had mastering Beverly? The reason is that he had been so deeply conditioned by Earth culture that he had to respect her. As long as he respected her, he could not master her. He could master other girls, but not her, because he respected her. It was only when he learned to despise her rather than respect her that he could master her, and they could both be fulfilled.)
Did he really learn to despise her or just finally accept her nature as being that what it was. And in accepting that nature he discovered that it only proved to support that inconsistencies he was taught as a young Earth male to be false. He might have despised her for so readily accepting things that contradicted what they had been taught as young.
I suspect that anyone that had discovered their very existence has been a charade might be resistant to this reality. It might have been in his subconscious that if Beverly wasn't a slave after all, that he hadn't grown up living a lie. He held out a slight bit of hope that his past might have been valid. But hell I'm still working on this as well.
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A slave who has accepted their slavery does not meet the characteristics of a free Gorean. There are several characters in the books who are enslaved at one point or another, but because internally they still embody the "free" characteristics, they inevitably become free. (for example Tarl, Jason, Fish, Rim, Verna)
Now, regarding females and slavery - a biological truth that Goreans accept and incorporate into their lives is the order of nature - humans are part of nature, a species of animal, and the human species is male-dominant. When a man dominates a woman he isn't being kinky, he is behaving in accordance with his biological programming. And women are biologically programmed to behave submissively towards men.
In the books, Norman says repeatedly that inside every woman is a free woman seeking her companion, and a slave seeking her master. I know this is going to raise a ruckus, but on Gor a woman is free because men allow her to be free, or she is slave because men have made her a slave. Again, lots and lots of examples in the books. And, unlike men, because of the order of nature, most women can find fulfillment as a free woman or as a slave. One great example of that from the books is Dina of Turia. Great slave, foolishly free though by Tarl, who becomes a strong and courageous free woman of the bakers.
Oh, I agree with the above mentioned. I also believe that the word despise might be best used when discussing the Gorean Free Woman's attitude toward the slave.
When a free woman sees a slave she just might be seeing a glimpse into her own soul. A glimpse that perhaps terrifies or angers her. We have many high and mighties that proclaim their superiority and dominance as persons, yet they know that a man with a trained eye can see through their bullshit facade. They fear that some man will recognize this and make them a slave, but I'd wager that in a society such as ours (the not so Gorean one we exist in) a woman fears the discovery of her slavery only to be denied it's existence and in fact be rejected of its reality.
It is a fact that women are what men determine them to be. Even in our superficial or artificial reality of modern man no woman could stand without the laws and honorability of the men that have created them. This may not be a popular view, but a view that should not be ignored or dismissed.
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That is another good point to cover - you mention someone with a "slave nature." What is that? Where does it talk about it in the books? If I recall some of your earlier postings, someone with a slave nature is someone who has a hard time here on Earth living as a "free" person - they make poor decisions, don't like responsiblity, etc. Is that the kind of woman that the slavers look for, either on Gor or on Earth? NO! They look for women you are intelligent, proud, strong and spirited - because those women make the best slaves! Now, of course, they also look for women who are richly feminine, but they are not looking for wimps. And, once they are mastered by a strong man, these intelligent, strong, spirted women become exquisite slaves - because of the reality of the order of nature.
Another one of those times where my intention to be cryptic did not serve my intent too well.
At the risk of sounding too obsessed with my ishy, I'll use her as an example of what I believe they would look for.
You mentioned that the slavers would want a girl that intelligent, proud, strong and spirited. I absolutely agree. It is only a woman like this that could possibly stimulate a man like we consider ourselves to be. But simply maintaining such qualities doesn't imply a girl would be make great decisions or seek responsibility as might the free. In fact when a person, in particular the ultra submissive female is left to decide on her own she will quite often choose poorly in matters important to the free person. She will almost always blame someone or something else for her shortcomings and as far as seeking self improvement, come on; this isn't your first day in a leadership position. (winks)
I believe my ishy to be very strong, physically and mentally, she is well above average in intelligence (don't get a big head slut), she is proud and has an uncommon zest for life. All this being said she needs a man like me to inspire her to things she thought impossible. Her lust for playtime and party have been replaced with structure and discipline, not only does she respond favorably, she now caves my direction. I'm not saying the slave nature makes a woman trashy or garbage, I'm just saying it makes her a follower.
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Gorean slaves are not "free" as you suggest. Men are not fulfilled in slavery. Those who should be free eventually become free. Those who are too weak to be free eventually die as miserable slaves. Women; if strong, intelligent and spirited; can be fulfilled as Free women or as slaves because of the Order of nature. A different kind of fulfillment, perhaps, but both can be fulfilled. But a kajira, though fulfilled, is in now way free.
Well I wasn't speaking for all "Gorean slaves" in the context you seem to be implying here. First in a world where slavery is legal, not all individuals being held as slaves will actually have what we call the slave nature. But for those that do have this nature, the girl intended to succumb to the powers of mastery. I would suspect that you would agree that the girl intend to serve men and taken, held and made to accept her fate is soon enough finally free to be herself. Look at how many girls you see in a fucking shopping mall that would only be free when subjugated to man under the weight of his chains.
I believe that anyone with a desperation to survive any given situation and left with death or slavery as the only options would choose "slavery" or capture, a free man is never enslaved in his heart, he is simply held against his will until he again prevails. The free man or woman will never cease in their attempt to rescue their freedom.
A natural slave on the other hand discovers a personal contentedness in being held. And when the mastery is perfect, love and peace within her slavery will take effect. She therefore becomes free to be who she is, a mastered woman.
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One last quick thing - the slavers who took him had not identified Jason as being weak and only fit to serve as a slave (at least no more so than any Earth male); he just happened to get into the taxi cab with Beverly and got trapped along with her. Once on Gor, he proved he was no slave.
I'm gonna pull one of the early quotes that was made by the Gorean Slaver to Jason when he was about to be killed.
"How I despise your sort," he said, fools, cowards, and weaklings, guilt ridden, confused, smug, meaningless, pretentious, soft males who have permitted themselves to be tricked out of their own manhood, who dare not be true to the needs of their own blood, males too weak, too frightened and ashamed to be men."
So you see they did consider him weak, in fact they called him treasonous to his very nature as a man. I agree that he was in fact guilty as charged, at least at that moment in his life. He would later become, in the presence of men, their equal. He struggled, worked and obtained equality to other men. A point that you described must be achieved by us all earlier in your post.
You my friend are the brand of man I would take pleasure in standing beside.
Live most well....
< Message edited by xBullx -- 6/13/2009 12:38:44 PM >
_____________________________
Live well,
Bull
I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...
"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."
Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.
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RE: What is Gorean Freedom ? - 
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