quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan


Ok. Gorean Freedom. I think that Norman's central thesis in his books is that nearly everyone in modern day North America is unhappy, unhealthy, and unfulfilled because they try to live their lives in accordance with (IAW) politically correct fictions about how human beings are, rather that IAW with the truth of our nature. Norman presents the Free Gorean, in several different Gorean cultures, as the epitome of humans who do live IAW the way people actually are.

What are the characteristics of a free Gorean:
- They are sovereign in their personal territory
- They identify with, love and are allegiant to their community
- They identify with and take pride in the work that they do, and perform that work eithically and excellently.
- They subscribe to a particular notion of right and wrong:
* they assume that people are not equal, not the same, but quite different in many ways.
* they are bent toward conquest and defiance
* they strive to exhibit honor, courage, hardness and strength
* they agree with the statement "We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to me; then we will be the same."
* they also agree with the statement "Be strong, and do as you will. The swords of others will set your limits."

Someone in the books who meets those characteristics is considered to be free. If someone in the books does not meet those characterisics, they are either an outlaw or a slave. This is true in all of the various cultures Norman presents (Torvaldslanders, Red Hunters, Red Savages, etc.) in addition the the dominant Gorean culture of the cites. Perhaps expressed a little differently, but still present.


Norman is telling us that if we live in accordance with these characteristics we will be happier, healthier and more fulfilled because we will be living in accordance with the truth about what makes people happy, healthy and fulfilled.

Now, does this mean just do anything you want? Well, within the parameters of the characteristics, yes. But, if you choose not to work, or not to be part of your community, for example, then no. Gorean freedom is freedom within the characteristics, not absolute freedom.

Although this has generated a sometimes contentious but I think productive discussion, I feel that free Goreans "dispise" slaves because they do not live up to the characteristics of a free Gorean. I think part of the reason for the disagreement here is the way most of us think of the word "dispise." I think the best way to understand this word is as the opposite of the word "respect." If I am a Gorean in the books, and I meet another man or woman who displays the characteristics of a free person, I will "repect" them, and consider them to be at least roughly my equal. If I meet a slave, they will not display the characteristics; I will not respect them or consider them my equal. Instead I will consider them to be inferior and I will "dispise" them.


A slave who has accepted their slavery does not meet the characteristics of a free Gorean. There are several characters in the books who are enslaved at one point or another, but because internally they still embody the "free" characteristics, they inevitably become free. (for example Tarl, Jason, Fish, Rim, Verna)

In the books, Norman says repeatedly that inside every woman is a free woman seeking her companion, and a slave seeking her master. I know this is going to raise a ruckus, but on Gor a woman is free because men allow her to be free, or she is slave because men have made her a slave. Again, lots and lots of examples in the books. And, unlike men, because of the order of nature, most women can find fulfillment as a free woman or as a slave. One great example of that from the books is Dina of Turia. Great slave, foolishly free though by Tarl, who becomes a strong and courageous free woman of the bakers.

That is another good point to cover - you mention someone with a "slave nature." What is that? Where does it talk about it in the books? If I recall some of your earlier postings, someone with a slave nature is someone who has a hard time here on Earth living as a "free" person - they make poor decisions, don't like responsiblity, etc. Is that the kind of woman that the slavers look for, either on Gor or on Earth? NO! They look for women you are intelligent, proud, strong and spirited - because those women make the best slaves! Now, of course, they also look for women who are richly feminine, but they are not looking for wimps. And, once they are mastered by a strong man, these intelligent, strong, spirted women become exquisite slaves - because of the reality of the order of nature.

Gorean slaves are not "free" as you suggest. Men are not fulfilled in slavery. Those who should be free eventually become free. Those who are too weak to be free eventually die as miserable slaves. Women; if strong, intelligent and spirited; can be fulfilled as Free women or as slaves because of the Order of nature. A different kind of fulfillment, perhaps, but both can be fulfilled. But a kajira, though fulfilled, is in now way free.

One last quick thing - the slavers who took him had not identified Jason as being weak and only fit to serve as a slave (at least no more so than any Earth male); he just happened to get into the taxi cab with Beverly and got trapped along with her. Once on Gor, he proved he was no slave.

I wish you well my friend

Trevelyan

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissDominae

This is a terrific thread and I've appreciated all I have read so far.   I won't comment much because I want to read and consider more than I want to speak, but I did want to give my thanks to the OP and subsequent posters for their well-considered replies.   I hope there will be many more in the same helpful vein.

I hope you won't mind, but I do have one question ....... Dina of Turia; the slave somehow Freed by Tarl who is mentioned by name in one of the posts.... could someone please point me to which book this takes place in?   Reading it, even out of sequence, might help me understand better.

My respects to all ........... Olivia

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

When I think of Freedom, I think more of the freedom to be whom we are, regardless of external influences. To me it is an unlearning process, to free my mind of the moralities that have been imposed upon it by my upbringing, society, media, music, or any other external influence. To examine myself internally, decide that which I am based upon what I find there, and then finding myself content with that, regardless of what others may say or think. The reflections of ourselves, within the natural stratification of being humans, is limitless and there is no one correct way for all, there is only one correct way for each of us.

"There is no single humanity, no single shirt, no correct pair of shoes, no uniform, even a gray one, that will fit all men. There are a thousand humanities possible. He who denies this sees only his own horizons. He who disagrees is the denier of difference, and the murderer of better futures." Savages of Gor

That quote reflect much of how I feel about a lot of these lists of "what is the only way to be Gorean anything". There is a basic structure there, but for each thing we add to a list of must be, we limit it by one more thing. This is why, unless someone is a Second Life player or similar, I will not say they are not Gorean. They are free to do as they wish, and I will not deter them from whatever path they have chosen.

Freedom to be who we are, make our own mistakes, learn our own lessons, develop our own codes, and be one of many humanities.

No more, and no less.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

Tal Orion,

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with you.

If someone chooses to evade personal sovereignty (and whines "its not my fault, everyone should take care of me"), hates and alienates themselves from their community, thinks that everyone is equal, thinks that accomodation and resignation are the way to go, that it is good to be kind, gentle, tender and sweet; and really feels that it is best just to be a good unisexual work unit, they are certainly free to do so, but they are not Gorean.

Yes, there is that quote from Savages. I will have to look it up to see the context. But there are 26 and 99/100ths other books that support the characteristics both is discussion and in the actions of the characters.

I wish you well my friend,

Trevelyan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

Tal Orion,

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree with you.

If someone chooses to evade personal sovereignty (and whines "its not my fault, everyone should take care of me"), hates and alienates themselves from their community, thinks that everyone is equal, thinks that accomodation and resignation are the way to go, that it is good to be kind, gentle, tender and sweet; and really feels that it is best just to be a good unisexual work unit, they are certainly free to do so, but they are not Gorean.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

Tal Orion,

Well, we disagree. That's ok.

And yes, I agree absolutely with your point. In my opinion, Goreans see themselves as part of a community. It is in line with another biological truth, that we as human animals function best when part of a group. But they also function best when they maintain their own sovereignty, which is why Norman set it up the way he did. In their own home, they are sovereign. They give allegiance to the community they live in, but the community's sovereignty ends at the individual's "doorstep". And of course, the community's sovereignty ends "at the city's walls" or however far they have the ability to project it.

I wish you well

Trevelyan

quote:

ORIGINAL: eponavet



So then, i do not know if i will ever be considered Gorean. I will continue to read the books, but it may be best to bow out of the discussions for now.

But, i thank you for your clarification and views. They do help a person who is learning....i honestly need to know these things sooner rather than later as i continue to make my own journey of self discovery.

Take care,

~ epona