Aswad
Posts: 6914
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
Your arguments seem a bit erratic
Read a line at a time, perhaps. With a slightly longer attention span, it becomes clear that I'm stating that humanity has devoted a lot of effort to going as far as possible and, as such, it is inevitable that a lot of things are beyond my limits, or simply don't appeal to me. A brazen bull is beyond my limits. Making someone stand in a cramped position for ages is simply boring. Waterboarding brings up unpleasant memories. Broken bones can be entertaining. Electrical shocks are.
Sadism doesn't necessarily imply a lack of taste or preferences, nor an absence of limits or sympathy. In fact, as I have pointed out elsewhere, a well developed sense of empathy is necessary for some forms of sadism. My response to the suffering of the other party is dependent on the balance between sadism and sympathy, both of them mediated through empathy, and at some point sympathy will win out.
As for consent, that is indeed a complicated question. There have been several threads about the subject on the other side, with a lot of good posts. I would refer you to those, but I'm guessing you won't put in the effort to search through the archives for them. So I'll leave it at noting that consent is relevant when mandated by allegiances. That part should have been pretty clear in what I already said.
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You say that a Gorean set of beliefs accepts Chechnya and Viking style war crimes such as rape and slaughter of innocents; then reverse course and say you " don't think we've seen a lot of glorification of war here".
Could you explain how that is a reversal of course?
Glorification, according to the Princeton dictionary, means idealization. I don't think we've seen a lot of idealization of war here. But we have seen war recognized as acceptable and sometimes necessary.
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You seem to equate "man's natural inclination to conquer" with slaughter and rape; This is a serious misunderstanding of the natural power Men have over women and children.
I do not equate it with that, and would ask that you back the assertion. I note that it has been demonstrated to be one facet of our nature under certain circumstances, which is very different from saying that is all there is to it.
The dictionary gives conquest as meaning to defeat in combat, to subjugate, to put down by force or authority, or to take by force. I don't know what you mean by the word, but as far as I can tell, there's no sense of the word as applied to others that doesn't imply something that is distasteful to a western ethic. Yet it is clearly the case that conquest is one of the main things to differentiate Gorean ethics from Western Humane Ethics.
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You see, for most Men, their natural power over women and children is to them a tool to do good things like nurture families, protect and take care of them, and build things. They see conquest of themselves and our weaker nature as the greater objective.
Humans aren't so simple and one-dimensional as to have only one instinct. Men certainly have the instinct to protect and provide. I dare say that is one of the strongest instincts. The instinct to build is also one not to be discounted, and I have a fondness for that myself. As for conquest of oneself, I will assume you are referring to self control, and I assure you I have developed mine quite rigorously over the years, and intend to keep doing so.
However, conquest of our "weaker nature" makes the very value judgment that the Gorean ethic rejects: that our nature is somehow wrong, and must therefore be suppressed. This was thoroughly entrenched by the Judeo-Christian religious traditions in the West, and the outcome is all around you. As men, we are hardwired to find conquest rewarding (our limbic system lights up like a christmas tree, in fact). To reject that is to reject what we are, which is both dishonest and degrading. The Gorean ethic celebrates humans and human nature as-is.
If there is one thing that could be said to be exclusive to Gorean philosophy, that is it: we do not conquer ourselves.
Again, conquest is defeating, subjugating, putting down, or taking. And as a Gorean, one does not defeat oneself, one does not subjugate oneself (the very idea...!), one does not put oneself down, and one does not take from oneself. It is simply out of the question. We expend a great deal of effort to discard exactly those traits from our conditioning to the western set of values that involve such debasement of our nature as human beings. Conquest and defiance are virtues to be upheld.
I know I'm usually not the one to throw quotes around, but...
"The morality of Earth, from the Gorean point of view, is a morality which would be viewed as more appropriate to slaves than free men. [...] Guilt is almost unknown in Gorean morality, though shame and anger are not. Many Earth moralities encourage resignation and accommodation; Gorean morality is bent more toward conquest and defiance; many Earth moralities encourage tenderness, pity and gentleness, sweetness; Gorean morality encourages honor, courage, hardness and strength. [...] I have sometimes thought that the Goreans might do well to learn something of tenderness, and, perhaps, that those of Earth might do well to learn something of hardness." - Marauders (edited from a post by Trevelyan).
I'm leaving in the last bit for your benefit, since you're encouraging tenderness. Myself, I have struck a balance between the two, in accordance with what my earliest memories are and what I have felt to be appropriate since deconstructing the socially conditioned framework, and I have never had a shortage of either tenderness or hardness. I display either when I choose, and by definition feel either when it is appropriate.
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Inflicting pain and suffering on others is a last resort, something they do only when they have to, and never joyfully.
The whip dance was surely a solemn and grave undertaking as a last-ditch effort to survive the horror of going home from the bar to face trashing that would inevitably be dished out by the mistress of the house. In case you missed the obvious, that was dripping with sarcasm.
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Others see their power as a great tool for working out their rage and impotence, and conquest of weaker beings as the only objective.
Impotence doesn't sound a whole lot like power. And rage is generally not easy to work out with someone who isn't the cause of it. I realize a lot of people in the modern world have extensive training in doing just that, or do it as a sort of subconscious overflow valve as a result of holding in a lot of shit that they should've put back where it belonged, but that's neither constructive, nor implicit in anything I have said. Sure you're not projecting your "weaker nature" onto others here?
Incidentally, are you proposing that all conquest should be directed at clearly stronger opponents?
And, should this stronger opponent then avoid conquering you, the clearly weaker party?
Just curious; unless I misread, there seems to be an absurdity in here somewhere.
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They thrill at others pain and suffering and see other people as only objects for their own desires.
Actually, I don't generally see people that way. That would preclude any enjoyment on my part.
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We call those men cowards for all the reasons listed previously, that the same suffering they thrill to inflict, has them crying out for mercy when it is delivered to them.
So far, I haven't dished out anything that goes beyond what I've successfully dealt with myself. On the other hand, that includes migraine, minor surgery without anaesthesia, acute malignant hypertension, one heart attack, some hard blows to inflamed tissue, panic attacks, being hit in the stomach with an axe, acid burns, hypoxic seizures, circulatory collapse, cold-turkey opioid withdrawal, burn injuries, infection of the fourth cranial nerve ganglion, nearly drowning, fractures of the ulnar and radial bone, getting my head smashed into a door, and so forth. Analgetics have little to no effect on me. As such, I have a bit of headroom over a common whipping before I'm into territory that I haven't been to myself.
Yes, there are things I would enjoy doing that would probably be far more than I can handle. I've run the risk of having some of those done to me in order to stand by my values and my commitments, knowing that it is so. And I have been through some things that I wouldn't inflict on others. How it constitutes cowardice to go beyond someone's limits, I'm still not sure. Cruelty? Yes. Cowardice? Not sure I see that one.
Seems to me you're using it as a generic deflection without substantiating it.
Perhaps you're conflating this with the idea of the bully or "sadist" who inflicts to compensate for something?
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Insisting on this as the "True" Gorean thought is convenient as I said, for the simple reason that is plucks one isolated thought out of the novels- the barbarity and ruthlessness of Gor- without the overall world environment.
It plucks one isolated thought out of the novels, alright: that human nature is to be embraced on its own terms.
The world environment doesn't change that. In one of the most comfortable, secure and soft countries in the world, Denmark, there was a lifetime study that is still running. The preliminary report indicates that a significant percentage of ethnic Danes (male, that is) will have been convicted of rape by age 27. Considering the exceptionally low crime and relapse rates, more than a literal order of magnitude better than the US, that should say something about (a) human nature, (b) male instincts, and (c) what happens when human nature is subjugated.
To do such a thing to a fellow citizen is reprehensible.
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In other words, its like the guy who says he wants to "really live the TRUE GOREAN LIFE"- wanting to shed himself of the boundaries and restrictions of civilization and use his fists and violence to resolve things....And thats it!-
To live the TRUE GOREAN LIFE!
Adaptability is another defining characteristic of humans. You will note that the books display a wide range of cultures that nonetheless have a common thread running through their various and diverse norms and ethics; we might call that the Gorean philosophy. If one could extract a character from the books and place it in the real world, on Earth, there would be significant adaptations. But that same common thread would remain. Integrity would not be sacrificed on the altar of convenience.
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Well except for wanting also to live in a world protected by police and law enforcement; otherwise that would just be crazy; and of course, the fire department, don't want to lose that;
Law enforcement is just that: law enforcement. They don't afford you any protection unless you happen to live next to the police station, if then. That is part of the reason why the right to self-defense is so widely recognized. Not that I mind having four police officers in my immediate family, but they will be the first to admit that the police doesn't afford protection. What the police does is threaten retribution for those who would harm you in a manner that breaks the law. Guess what? I've got that part covered by friends. Don't get me wrong: I'll call the cops to alert them of stuff they're supposed to know. But I've never experienced having them respond to a call in time to protect anyone.
In that regard, Gor had law enforcement.
The fire department is another convenience that would have emerged on Gor of the priest kings were less restrictive. Quite simply put, they didn't have the technology to make a dedicated fire department useful. Instead, one assumes there would be a good old-fashioned bucket line. Citizens helping each other out. And as far as my coverage goes, there's too much distance from me to the nearest station for them to do much more than prevent it from spreading. Hence, I have a fire hose, regular extinguisher and a fire blanket, and know how to use them all, as well as having fire alarms placed around the house in locations that avoid vortex formation.
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Well of course I need to keep a job, part of a global economy built by peaceful cooperation and reinforced by a system of laws; Its not like I want to live in the forest-
Actually, to live in the forest is a crime in Norway. That's one of the two reasons I don't, the other being that my FC would be profoundly unhappy with it, and I care a great deal for her. It certainly doesn't appeal to everyone, though I do know a fair number of people who would prefer to live on a boat, in a mobile home, or in the forest. Most of those have highly paid jobs that have taken them far from their nature, and wish to reconnect, as well as preferring the solitude of living in such a place.
Some of us really do prefer hard simplicity over soft complexity.
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Oh, and running water and electricity, otherwise I couldn't access the Gorean websites; And sewers of course- don't want to dig a latrine.
Running water is readily available in the terrain here, if you want it. I don't have a problem with wells or lakes, though. Been there, done that. Electricity is only relevant if I want to stay on the grid, and seeing as there aren't any priest kings around to prevent me from setting up my own solar collector, there really isn't a problem with supplying my laptop with energy. Neither is there a need for live Internet access on my part. It's convenient, but not necessary to live a happy life. As for Gorean websites, this is the closest I get to using one on a regular basis, and I am gone for long periods at a time. What keeps me coming back is a few interesting people and some interesting debate. Hardly indispensable, but admittedly convenient.
As for latrines, again, been there, done that. But there's no reason not to build something a bit more hygienic. Again, no priest kings to enforce strict limits on technology, so the Roman style of latrine seems like a good choice: flowing water from a stream or aquaeduct and a washable sponge for wiping your ass. Quite robust and maintainable, possible for me to build, and more practical than some of the alternatives I've used over the years. Cabins and tents don't usually come with such niceties as sewage disposal around here, you see.
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Oh, and a retirement plan, and Social Security- Gorean ways aren't very kind to old weak people;
By the time I hit retirement age, it is estimated that the national retirement fund will be depleted.
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Well ok, one more thing- health insurance- I have bad knees y'know-
Again, I've had to pay for the bulk of my own treatment for beurocratic reasons. Without the 90% effective tax, setting aside money for it wouldn't be a problem. As it is, I have managed despite that effective tax rate. Again, though, social programmes depend on things that were artificially limited in the books.
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So really, it is about plucking one isolated aspect of their culture, (the violence) and keeping all the good stuff from the dreaded "conventional western morality" and terrible rotten no-good "civilization". That's pretty convenient.
That would be pretty convenient, like most pipe dreams.
That's also not what I'm talking about.
Getting any clearer yet?
Health,
al-Aswad.
_____________________________
"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.
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RE: Sadism in Gor - 
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