RE: Sadism in Gor (Full Version)

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Mitzie -> RE: Sadism in Gor (6/25/2009 3:28:18 AM)

Thank you for posting a part of Johns letter Simon it does show JNs thoughts.

Mitzie



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (6/29/2009 5:41:40 PM)

Tal Kim,

I fail to see why two intelligent posters are arguing about which authority gets to define the meaning of a word.

That's like arguing about which authority gets to arbitrarily define what a human is.

All words evolve over time, and in different strains, at that (jargon). In colloquial use (the most well-adapted, most prevalent, and arguably most fit strain of the word "sadist"), the word is inapplicable to the discussion, conveying a meaning that has nothing to do with either the healthy expression of aggression and violence in the context of sex, nor anything to do what JN proposes would be likely to be less prevalent in a naturalistic culture. In medical jargon, a well established niche in the "biology" of words, a strain with a very specific meaning exists, which applies to parts of what JN talks about (note the requirement that the behavior cause impairment or distress in order for diagnosis to be made, which is present in both revisions of interest). In kinky jargon- a chaotic, trendy and comparatively small niche- there are a number of strains, none of which have gained dominance (pardon the pun), though almost all involve some active role in an activity involving pain.

Perhaps you could clarify whether the intent is to discuss what JN said, or to discuss human behaviors and their causes?

That obviates the need for the word "sadism" altogether- probably a prudent move when dealing with a word that is more parasitic than symbiotic in the context of either discussion. It serves a variety of purposes in other contexts, but this discussion is one wherein the word is a pathogen- it makes the discussion ill, and impairs the discussion's ability to function (i.e. arrive at any useful conclusions about either Gor or the human condition).

Which makes me feel like coining a useful word- pathomemetic (adj.)- to describe such a presentation of an otherwise healthy word. [:D]

Health,
al-Aswad.



Kimveri -> RE: Sadism in Gor (6/29/2009 6:17:41 PM)

Howdy, Aswad,

You've actually struck upon the point I was reaching for -- different people use the term in different ways. 

Let's use me as an example....Joe Average American (Christian, Democrat, married & monogamous) will consider me paddling Un's recalcitrant slaveling as "sadism". Anita Braech, PhD (Esteemed Psychologist with a penchant for Freud) will consider said paddling  potential "clinical sadism" & prescribe individual AND group sessions for all three of us. George Gorean (yourself, Leonidas, Un even) will see this paddling as nothing to do with "sadism" whatsofuckingever.

The paddling is no different, the term "sadism" is really no different (except connotatively), but the viewpoint IS amazingly different.

Until I understand the perspective of the person using a malleable term such as "sadism", I'm not gonna get all huffy, offended or condemnatory. I do what I do for my own reasons. Those who know me, know that I tend to seek mutually beneficial balance in just about everything. Those who don't know me....well, they aren't going to believe much of what I say if my actions don't mesh with the definitions to which they are accustomed.

Ultimately, it comes back to the intent behind the action, like so many other things.

By the way, good to see you, my friend!

~Kimveri



FrankAr -> RE: Sadism in Gor (6/30/2009 1:29:53 AM)

FR..

Tal and Greetings,

To be honest I do not really care what type of sadism a person uses...clinical, physical, spiritual, mental...just as long it does not affect my life and the total philos of the books.

To be honest Kimveri and other FC or FW that are abound on these boards I do not give a rats arse of the sadism that they use in their life. I do not give a rats arse of what people think of what sexual sadism I tend to give during MY sexual gratification. Some of what I DO tends to be somewhat light compared to some, but if it gets the blood tingling to the right places, makes the females have that little moan and under their breath say....a bit harder please. I have no concern.

It does become a concern if what I want to preach to others goes against THEIR values on the philos of the Gorean books, and want to force it down their throats. They will just call me a retard and not talk to me...LOLOL.

Interpretation, but it has been a damn good read for the past 2 pages.

Be well.

Frank Ar.



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (6/30/2009 5:07:15 PM)

Hey, Kim.

Been a while, yeah?

In truth, I think Leonidas' reference to the Rome series is a good common ground for those who have seen it. One can see both a wide range of behaviors and inclinations that could be called sadistic by a contemporary colloquial standard, as well as seeing a wide range of relations between owners and slaves (I wonder how many of the various would-be kajirae of the world would relish the prospect of trading places with the various slaves held by Anthony, or Attia, etc.?).

It seems clear to me that there are a large number of healthy forms of sadism, some unhealthy ones, some that indicate character flaws, and a huge number that can't readily be sorted into one category or the other without knowledge of the person in question. Kicking a dog, for example, would seem to be a variant of snapping at people- it affects those you can get away with inflicting it on, and usually represents some failure to sustain a good venting mechanism for life issues, or the lack of ability to lay a mess at whose feet it belongs (usually oneself), etc. Whether using the analogy- whipping a slave- or the original, it uses a proxy to satisfy a need one is powerless to satisfy. On the other hand, when there is the presence of a more sexually oriented aggression, it is more akin to a healthy way to vent via sexual gratification, though whether another human should be the preferred partner for sexual gratification in order for the venting to be healthy is a different point for another debate, I guess. For me, it has always felt like a personal failure to employ a proxy, while the use of a slave for venting- aggressively, violently, both or neither- doesn't seem problematic.

As noted, if most of the posters are familiar with it, Rome makes a great series to use examples from to discuss the various forms, some of which are consonant with Gor as I see it, along with a few that are not, IMO.

Health,
al-Aswad.



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Sadism in Gor (6/30/2009 5:52:00 PM)

quote:

For me, it has always felt like a personal failure to employ a proxy, while the use of a slave for venting- aggressively, violently, both or neither- doesn't seem problematic.



I don't get it... did you just contradict yourself here?  I was with you til this part.

~sgs



Nephilim -> RE: Sadism in Gor (6/30/2009 10:50:51 PM)

The books move from the perspective of the narrator being mostly of Earth and objecting to or being surprised by what he sees on Gor.  Eventually he rejects Earth values, and becomes more "hardened" and "of Gor".  So, certainly to be "Gorean" would mean that you wouldn't object to those practices that originally surprised the narrator, but that he became more accustomed to.  So far in my reading (only book 9) he has only objected to the killing of slaves.  Their use and abuse seems not to concern him so much.  Also, in the book there are various cultures and different expectations of slaves and different practices.  So, to say that things are one certain way for the whole book/universe of the Gorean novels woud be difficult.  I could say certainly that from what I have read, if there were hardcore sadists on Gor, no one would object.  One may even kill a slave if they feel so inclined. (Only the narrator, with his weeknesses of Earth, seems to object.)  My point is simply that a Gorean would not object to a sadist, and if one is a sadist, it doesn't seem to conflict with the principles of the novels.  Also, there are a caste/subclass of torturers in one of the books that they don't go too much into detail about.  No one objected to someone cutting off the nose of a slave for breaking a mirror, hamstringing or killing slaves for amusement, so I doubt they would object to a little slap and tickle in the bedroom.

We each take what we want from the novels and if somone feels they can identify with some part of them, who has the authority to make a judgement?



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/1/2009 2:20:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

I don't get it... did you just contradict yourself here?  I was with you til this part.


I would like to think I am not in the habit of contradicting myself, but I do know it has happened occasionally.

To clarify the part where I lost you...

If my boss serves up a shitty day at work and I take it out on someone else when I should be taking it out on myself for not standing up to my boss, or should be taking it out on the boss for being a piece of shit, or should be sucking it up because life sucks at times and adults are supposed to be able to deal with this occasional suckage, then I am using someone else as a proxy to suffer for my deficiencies.

If I simply want to relax and unwind, however, it is equally valid to do so by the various activities by which I do relax and unwind, whether that is to put on a video game, to grab a cider and a movie, or fucking someone's brains out (not literally, at least in my case). That isn't pushing my personal issues onto someone else, but rather indulging myself in a gratifying activity. If I happen to be gratified by sexual sadism, that's no different from being gratified by 'nilla sex; it's sex, to me. Me, I find a hot bath, and subsequently dozing off while letting my mind wander, to be relaxing.

I hope that makes it clearer.

Health,
al-Aswad.



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/2/2009 7:24:00 AM)

Thank you for taking the time to clarify.  The use of the word 'venting' is what confused me, but now I understand.

I hope you don't mind me saying this, but I am thankful that you are taking time out of your day to post, as it really is fascinating to read your extremely intelligent and thoughtful ideas and opinions.   I see your name and I can't wait to read what you wrote. 

Take care,
~sgs



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/2/2009 10:00:16 AM)

You're welcome, as always.

No need for compliments, though. I don't mind, but I already know I can walk on water.  [;)]

Health,
al-Aswad.



Elisabella -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/2/2009 10:36:00 PM)

-FR-

I think there's a confusion going on between two concepts - whether the punishment of a slave is considered 'sadism,' and whether or not any Goreans have sadistic tendencies.  Personally, I don't see the punishment aspect as clinically sadistic (though I might say 'that's so sadistic' in the colloquial sense, meaning cruel) because the point of such a beating is correction of the slave, not sexual pleasure for the man.

As far as the second concept, which I think falls more in line with the topic "Sadism in Gor," I would say that there's no reason a Gorean can't be sadistic, particularly in the SM sense of the word (ie, with a willing 'victim'). In the SM sense, it's about getting sexual gratification through causing pain.  I'm just going to take a guess here, but I imagine there's a Gorean out there who enjoys spanking for fun, one who likes pulling his slave's hair when they have sex, one who prefers rough sex to making love because her whimpering turns him on.  I really don't see how consensual sexual sadism is out of line with Gorean philosophy.

As far as criminal sexual sadism on Gor...the concept of a man kidnapping a woman, torturing her, and raping her...the first thing I thought of was recently reading Savages of Gor, particularly the passages dealing with Earth women brought to a slave auction.  I remember a part where someone said that they would let the woman try to cover herself just long enough to be amused that she still had modesty, before taking that away too.  Isn't that a sort of mental sadism? I think the books are far more sadistic than the people actually living as Goreans. 

Take care,
Bella



barelynangel -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/3/2009 4:03:53 AM)

quote:

I remember a part where someone said that they would let the woman try to cover herself just long enough to be amused that she still had modesty, before taking that away too.  Isn't that a sort of mental sadism? I think the books are far more sadistic than the people actually living as Goreans. 


Why is that any concept of sadism.  If that's the case then then whole concept of slavery would be sadism because there are many times in a woman's slavery wherein she likes to believe the choice is hers or she is in control and the Man allows her to THINK this is true until he decides to show her otherwise.  What you have described here is also simply to me, Men teaching a woman her place as a slave that she may actually believe she is owed modesty before Men and then they use her attempts and then their taking it away as a LESSON.    Sure may they enjoy the lesson -- why not. 

angel



Andalusite -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/3/2009 8:32:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
If my boss serves up a shitty day at work and I take it out on someone else when I should be taking it out on myself for not standing up to my boss, or should be taking it out on the boss for being a piece of shit, or should be sucking it up because life sucks at times and adults are supposed to be able to deal with this occasional suckage, then I am using someone else as a proxy to suffer for my deficiencies.

If I simply want to relax and unwind, however, it is equally valid to do so by the various activities by which I do relax and unwind, whether that is to put on a video game, to grab a cider and a movie, or fucking someone's brains out (not literally, at least in my case). That isn't pushing my personal issues onto someone else, but rather indulging myself in a gratifying activity. If I happen to be gratified by sexual sadism, that's no different from being gratified by 'nilla sex; it's sex, to me.


This hasn't come up so far with my Master. Ocasionally with my Dominant, or in egalitarian kinky relationships in which I bottomed or switched, my partner was annoyed by a bad day at work or nasty traffic or whatever. Rather than trying to talk about it while he was still upset or annoyed, usually I'd get him a cold soda (or whatever he wanted to eat or drink), give him a massage, and then we'd play for a while. I didn't feel like I was a proxy who he was just venting his frustrations on, and he wasn't out of control, but it put him in a *MUCH* better mood and relaxed him. [;)] Once we were finished, we could talk about stuff, if we wanted to and had the energy.

I can walk on water, too, but only after the floor's been mopped or when it's raining![;)]



Elisabella -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/4/2009 4:15:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

quote:

I remember a part where someone said that they would let the woman try to cover herself just long enough to be amused that she still had modesty, before taking that away too.  Isn't that a sort of mental sadism? I think the books are far more sadistic than the people actually living as Goreans. 


Why is that any concept of sadism.  If that's the case then then whole concept of slavery would be sadism because there are many times in a woman's slavery wherein she likes to believe the choice is hers or she is in control and the Man allows her to THINK this is true until he decides to show her otherwise.  What you have described here is also simply to me, Men teaching a woman her place as a slave that she may actually believe she is owed modesty before Men and then they use her attempts and then their taking it away as a LESSON.    Sure may they enjoy the lesson -- why not. 

angel


Hi Angel,

I believe the difference lies in whether the slave in question was forcibly kidnapped or a willing 'victim'.

Like I said, the books are far more sadistic than anyone on these boards.

Take care,
Bella



ishyB -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/4/2009 5:51:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hi Angel,

I believe the difference lies in whether the slave in question was forcibly kidnapped or a willing 'victim'.

Like I said, the books are far more sadistic than anyone on these boards.

Take care,
Bella



Greetings Elisabella,

when a convict is first entered in a new jail, he or she is subjected to a full-body strip-search... this including a rectal and vaginal exam.
These people are forcibly captives too, yet I see no sadism in the way they are treated.
You may point out that criminals deserve such treatment because of their crimes and as such they brought it on themselves. But as you are well aware of, Goreans feel the same way about slave girl; they brought it on themselves because of their nature.
While you may argue that Goreans are incorrect in that regard, you cannot denial that in the context of discussing sadism it make both the same: in they eyes of the captor the subject deserves the treatment and as such, it is not sadism but mere practicality.

However, I do think that Goreans are often quite cruel with their slaves.
Sure they are teaching them their status as slaves, like Angels said; but on the other hand, they often seem to make this much more difficult and painful for the girl then is strictly needed.
The girl in scene you reference too was brought on the sales block fully clothed, and then slowly, step by step her cloths were striped away and she was lashed and branded. The whole scene to me had the distinct feeling of a cat toying with a mouse, letting it think it has a chance -or in the case of the girl, some modesty left- before then finally going for the kill.

The girl could have brought out stripped, branded and ready for her sale.
It would have been a harsh and painful shock, but it would have been fast, and more merciful to the girl in my opinion.
However, the men clearly enjoyed the 'game' they were playing with her, and it was a superbe sales move on behalf of the auctioneer, because he sold her at a higher price then he would have if she was brought out stripped and ready.

There was a purpose to the way she was handled: to get a higher price for her; yet, the men clearly enjoyed the distress she was in, and enjoyed making it harder for her then was strictly necessary.
Is that sadism? I don't know, and frankly, I don't care.

All I know is that all Gorean slaves I've met or talked to here on Earth responded extremely well to such treatment and in fact, actually enjoy it. I also know that the Goreans in the books specifically picked girls who naturally responded well to such treatment to be slave girls...
They had to adjust to it, but they all ended up being happier ones they did then they were before...
So if the men were teaching the girls to be happier... how is that really cruelty or sadism?

I wish you well,

ishy



Elisabella -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/4/2009 6:45:49 AM)

quote:

I also know that the Goreans in the books specifically picked girls who naturally responded well to such treatment to be slave girls...


Heya Ishyness,

Well, I do think there's a difference between the women who were eventually set free because they were more of a FW than a slave, and the women who after 20 pages started romanticizing in long repetitive paragraphs about how lovely it is to be a slave.  Even if you want to go with an 'end justifies the means' type of morality, you still have to admit it's sadistic to do that to a forced captive who doesn't blossom under that treatment.

XO,
Bella



ishyB -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/4/2009 6:59:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Heya Ishyness,

Well, I do think there's a difference between the women who were eventually set free because they were more of a FW than a slave, and the women who after 20 pages started romanticizing in long repetitive paragraphs about how lovely it is to be a slave.  Even if you want to go with an 'end justifies the means' type of morality, you still have to admit it's sadistic to do that to a forced captive who doesn't blossom under that treatment.

XO,
Bella



Greetings Elisabella,

I have to admit? Meaning you're making me? So, now who is being sadistic?  [sm=marionette.gif][sm=whip.gif]

If not then I would say that it would depend on your definition of sadism.
Do you consider the cavity search they do with new inmates to be sadistic?

I wish you well,

ishy



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/4/2009 8:25:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Like I said, the books are far more sadistic than anyone on these boards.


Perhaps, but probably not, seeing as you use the term "anyone."

To me, it reads more like the books are focusing on humiliation and objectification to the point where one might say it's pretty likely that JN has a kink for exactly that (for instance, what person in a slave-owning society where the demand exceeds the supply would ever put a lower price on a slave than a hot meal?). That sort of thing could be labelled six ways from Sunday, but probably doesn't have anything to do with what JN was referencing as occuring less frequently (although, ironically, it seems it does occur less frequently in sexually liberal societies).

Which brings us back to figuring out what we're actually discussing.

Is this about the statement that sadism is rare on Gor, and so about what JN meant by that phrase, the likelihood that he is right about his assumption, and the implications for Goreans? Is it about human sexual behaviors like pain play, or like sadism in a legally sanctioned context, and whether Goreans are (or "should" be) into this? Or about the pathologies that are labelled as sadism, bearing in mind the differences in social norms (upon which a great number of diagnoses are strictly contingent), and whether those are prevalent in the books or among Goreans?

With regard to slaves and their treatment, Leonidas brought up the Rome series.

I think that is an excellent example. It demonstrates- with a tolerable degree of accuracy- a very wide range of the attitudes and practices of one of the principal inspirations for the capital of Gor, including the acquisition, trading and use of slaves. It shows the difference between a wife and a slave in a strictly patriarchal society. It shows the range of relationships between master and slave. And, of particular relevance to this thread, it shows most of what one might normally refer to as sadism, sexual and otherwise. Besides, it's a brilliant series that I'd emphatically recommend.

As for the degree of sadism around here, I suspect that's not just individual, but also contextual.

Ever seen a squad of soldiers gang up on some village girl?

Just wondering.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Elisabella -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/4/2009 12:59:47 PM)

Hi Ishy,

LOL. Figure of speech. You so know what I meant.

And no, I don't consider a cavity search of prisoners to be sadistic.  There's a reasonable purpose for it.  I would consider a cavity search of a prisoner who has been in prison for months and has no sign of bad behavior, simply for the guard's amusment or as a sick demonstration of power, to be sadistic.

Hi Aswad,

Not in person, but I've seen video. And yeah, I think that mob mentality definitely increases sadism by those in power.

I think you're right - it is more of a humiliation thing.  As someone who's not into humiliation, or even that familiar with it, my first thought was "mental sadism" but I think that humiliation fits better.

I've wanted to see Rome ever since the series started, but alas, no HBO.  I love the costumes shown on the commercials - so beautiful.  Once I get back home to my sewing machine (oh darling, why did I leave you in Sydney) I'm going to try to make a stola based on a ridiculously simple pattern I found online.

Pax,
Bella



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/4/2009 1:41:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Not in person, but I've seen video. And yeah, I think that mob mentality definitely increases sadism by those in power.


I'm not sure I would consider it sadism. More like reverting to a more feral state. Bear in mind that most of these are ordinary Joe's when they ship out, and they eventually do come back, leaving the past behind to various degrees. (I don't mean to trivialize the process- I well understand the difficulties in returning from an extreme situation back to a semblance of normality- but getting into it takes us off track.)

You could say they get more aggressive, sure. As for games, have you ever had a cat? Describing a cat as sadistic is somewhat out of place, IMO. Nonetheless, I have been woken up by a playful cat sitting on my lap, tossing a lemming up into the air and catching it, trying to entice me to come along to play. Bleeding heart as I am (any comments about pity can be directed to the trashbin; I've restored what I remember from a precognitive age... nosce te ipsum), I quickly relieved her of the lemming, let it run off, and gave the cat a treat to substitute. Incidentally, she regularly trades in rats, mice, birds and lemmings for treats, apparently taking care not to kill them; quick study, that one.

As with humiliation, it can be an extension of conquest in some cases. The prey is utterly defeated... conquered in full.

Regarding Rome, it's available on DVD. No commercial breaks. [:D]

Health,
al-Aswad.



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