RE: Sadism in Gor (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/6/2009 5:24:40 PM)

Edit: Mitzie, in case you missed it, my reply to you is on the previous page, at the bottom.

Spot on, Ron.

We can debate what a kajira is 'til the cows come home, and the reality remains that there are three distinct "schools" of Gorean thought in that regard. One that's looking for what I'd call a kinky FW. One that's concerned with traditional male female relations and using the kajira thing as an excuse to unchain desires that are already unchained in some of the most surprising places in the non-western world (I've heard a muslim lady say we Norwegians are pussies that need to brush up on our Viking heritage, and that our ladies need to stop chaining up their own libidoes).

And, of course, the last one, my favorite interpretation...

The one that recognizes that some get what's coming to 'em: a collar.

Obviously put somewhat bluntly, but sometimes you stab, sometimes you slice, neh?

Don't matter much if Tarl "Hunk" Gorbanga Jr. isn't a sadist, if he hands her to Vlad "Twice on the News Today" Sonagor.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Zevar -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/6/2009 5:27:34 PM)

FR:

The subject of sadism for some conjures up images of extreme cruelty and maiming of bodies and the such. While for others there could be the argument to the contrary when it comes to defining the term sadism in their private and personal life.

To derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others or the tendency to derive pleasure from cruelty and in some cases extreme cruelty is what some people find pleasurable and denote it as "natural" for them to consensually express in various methods as adults one to the other. While others might act in similar ways and would not relate such methods as sadistic or sadism when considering what or how they define living as a gorean.

Although there are those that disagree, none the less sadism has been a practice for centuries now and not just in a sexually gratifying manner. There are countless references to sadism that one could discover in researching the topic. Varying opinions remain among the masses regarding the practice of sadism.

Albeit, yet those who practice what is defined by society as sadism are not likely to desist from such due to the mere opinions expressed in virtual reality or otherwise. It could be argued that not everything that another practices can be understood without looking through the “eyes” of their perspective even if to simply better understand their reasoning regardless what they might “practice.”

Obviously we all have our own personal opinion’s when it comes to topics including sadism for some. I for one would have much to say when opinons that others have regarding sadism that would cross the boundary lines that I have set which might then be perceived as none other than abuse to another with a different definition or opinion of sadism and living as a gorean. Then again most of what is practiced regardless in ones life is subjective. Subjectivity does not however prevent others from disagreeing with what is "natural" for some while not for others.

The question arises does the motto "To thine own self be true" apply when it comes to those who are gorean and practice what is not considered to others as sadism? Or is the motto applicable only to that which one personally condones and agrees with that is considered to be gorean in their own opinion?

I wish you well,
~Zevar~



BeingChewsie -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/6/2009 7:19:51 PM)

quote:

that ungrateful whore


I loveeee when you call me by my full name..:::swoons::

heh

[sm=hearts.gif]



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/7/2009 8:31:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


I'd be more than happy to do a one-week crash course for the kajirae would-be's. I wager more than half would run off and not look back. And that's got nothing to do with sadism (which I generally reserve for my own toys, see). In fact, sadism is pretty far down the list of concerns for a prospective kajirae. It's got something to do with learning that a thing is something different from what one thought it was.

Hell, half running away in one week is probably optimistic.

Health,
al-Aswad.


Interesting... are you of the 'slavery equals misery' bent?  

~sgs



Leonidas -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/7/2009 10:00:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Again, your little kajirettes have nothing to worry about.



Unless they aren't masochists, then, they probably need to worry plenty, or at least explicitly understand what they are getting themselves into, which isn't all that easy if they submit to a man who is bullshitting himself, or them, or both.

The problem is that if you have on the one hand a woman whose natural instinct is to please a man and on the other hand a man who takes satisfaction in the imposition of suffering.  The slave naturally seeks to avoid expressions of disapproval, and being made to suffer by her master, and seeks to alter her behavior accordingly.  If she ends up serving a master who is apt as not to back-hand her, just because he likes to, you end up with one confused slave who quickly comes to believe in her own inferiority.  This is especially so if, as is common, the man who is back-handing her is quick with a contrived reason for doing so.

If a man is genuinely sadistic, and self-aware enough to know that about himself, and seeks to own slave girls who understand that enduring pain and suffering are a vauled form of service to him, and not expressions of his displeasure, ok.  He's going to attract slaves into his household who are genuinely masochistic, or whose desire to be of service outweighs their natural aversion to pain and suffering.  That is not generally the happy circumstance though.  The sadistic actor will disguise his sadism as displeasure, and harsh discipline related to his displeaure, which again, is a recipe for a confused and self-loathing slave.

My experience (and I'm sure the experience of others will vary) is that frequently men and women come to our community thinking that they are either sadistic, or masocistic because they find themselves drawn to exploitation fantasies of one kind or another, and SM is the only cultural hook they have to hang those urges upon, because actual, genuine dominance and submission in the primal sense aren't as culturally acceptable.  As they reconnect with and embrace their primal natures, they see those urges as something else, and not really sadism or masochism at all.

What I think JN was getting at when he explained that sadism is rare on Gor is just that.  Men and women who are congruent about being men and women do not suffer from the repression induced disconnect between their primal urges and the natural context that gives rise to them. 

Edit: One other thing that I will comment on is your characterization of statements like "I hope X suffers" as an expression of sadism.  I don't think that's generally so.  Statements like that are almost always a statement of a desire for revenge, which we and a few other species are wired for, but not really related to sadism at all.



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/7/2009 12:06:15 PM)

A sadist enjoys the suffering and misery of another person.  A sadistic Master would enjoy watching his girl serve not out of love so much, as out of fear.   As was mentioned in another thread... beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.  To a sadist, a girl serving purely out of love and devotion isn't as beautiful as one serving out of fear.   So the question is, is this the Gorean M/s paradigm... a girl serving out of fear and trembling?   What is the underlying premise of the girl's service to her Master. 

There is a big difference between living with a sadist...whom the disease of sadism really establishes his outlook on how he lives his life and how he trains and moreso... how he *maintains* the slaves in his home (in regards to his 'mastery' of them), vs. living with a guy who enjoys a little s&m play now and again, but his overall outlook on how he runs his household and how he maintains his slaves on a day-to-day basis is not contaminated by the disease of sadism.

~sgs



Andalusite -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/7/2009 3:39:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie
but what is beautiful in seeing open cuts and black and purple bruises and Sadists saying it turns them on to see the slave cry out in extreme pain ( not whipping ) I am talking severe pain that cuts the flesh.

So I politely ask that those who are sitting in the background on this thread why not come forward and lets see if we can get some real answers once and for all and perhaps then it will stop all the Sadism posts appearing on here as they do from time to time.

To me at the moment it seems that yes there are quite a few who claim to be Gorean who are Sadists.

Not all Goreans are sadists, and not all sadists are Gorean. However, someone can be both, without any conflict.

I haven't had open cuts, but I've had black and purple bruises, and cane welts, that lasted for a couple of weeks. I've cried so hard I could barely catch my breath, my nose running, incoherent, but it was still a positive experience for me both in the moment and afterward. I understand it can be disturbing for other people to watch that level of intensity, even if they aren't the one on the receiving end.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie
I do believe the Sadistic encounter I had has scarred me inside a little and affected my judgements... I wont deny I dont like what some Sadists are into but then it should not concern me now as I am not a Sadists slave or FC.

I'm sorry you had such a bad experience! Since you're not involved with someone who is a sadist, it hopefully won't ever be an issue for you in the future. I can't blame you at all for being fearful of sadists, but my experience has been the opposite. Guys who self-identify as sadists have been very respectful of limits, I feel less emotionally vulnerable than when D/s or M/s (or I suppose Gorean slavery) is involved, and their expectations have been much more reasonable/within my comfort zone than most men who self-identify as Masters or as Dominants. Being self-aware of what pushes your buttons in negative ways, and finding a compatible partner, is important for everyone.

sweetgirlserves, sadism isn't a disease which is spread via contamination, like salmonella![:'(] My Master doesn't want me to submit/serve/be enslaved/be owned by him out of fear, although it can sometimes be fun for both of us to do things that push our buttons and give me a momentary fright. Having that adrenaline rush make my heart pound, make me gasp and my eyes go wide for an instant before I relax again can be hot, but he doesn't want me in perpetual panic mode, and in general, I'm very trusting with him. He has read some of the Gorean books, and incorporates a few elements that he chooses to, but we're M/s rather than Gorean per se. He controls me in areas outside of kinky play, but I do not live with him (we've only been dating for 3 months). My perception of Gorean slavery from the books is that it is far harsher than anything he does or wishes to do to me, and I'd be completely miserable in that situation! Consensual Gorean slavery here on Earth isn't all that difference in practice from M/s, as far as I can tell from people's descriptions of it. Everyone who practices it does a little bit differently, anyway.




Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/7/2009 4:18:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

Interesting... are you of the 'slavery equals misery' bent?  


No.

I'm just making an observation that most would-be kajirae seem to have a fairly romanticized idea of what slavery is. As someone pointed out, getting your brains screwed out is a lot more fun than getting kicked out of bed at 3am to go pick up something at the store, or cleaning up after the cat has puked up half a rat. Or entertaining a visiting sadist, for that matter. Point being that most seem to be looking for pretty conventional D/s or M/s with some trappings, which is different from slavery.

Others have already pointed out that most interviews with prospective kajirae tend to come to an abrupt end when the girl realizes she's going to be doing real work and probably more than earning her keep. Which is not to say you won't find those who understand what they're getting into, and still want to get into it. There's just a vastly greater number who have a mental image of silks, preening and great sex.

Whether slavery equals misery or not depends on the owner, doesn't it?

And chattel slavery entails status as a transferrable commodity.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/7/2009 5:51:27 PM)

Tal Leonidas,

Bit longer reply than I planned; I hope you'll bear with me.

First off, I think you misunderstood me.

The line you quoted was in reference to the idea of Mitzie's chatroom girls having a clear idea of what they are getting into, and having the decency to- if they get stuck in an untenable situation and run- chalk it up to their own foolishness instead of involving law enforcement in their lack of comprehension. Handing the reins fully over to someone else is a big deal, particularly in the sense of chattel slavery, where the character of the person they're first handing the reins to may be rendered irrelevant if that person decides to pass them on to someone else for whatever reason.

I'm essentially saying that my distinct impression is that Mitzie coddles them into a false sense of security with her own preconceptions about what Gorean men are and should be, with blatant disregard for the ease with which anyone can project the appearance of conforming to those preconceptions. Thus, she reinforces ignorance, rather than explaining what a slave is. Subsequently blaming others for the incongruence between her own rose colored picture of reality and the actual reality seems rather bass-ackwards to me.

As for the rest, we're mostly in agreement, I think.

I used to have more kinks and fetishes than any sane man should have, about two cocoons ago. Then my drive for a measure of integrity and consistency led me to deconstruct the inherited moral paradigm, and construct my own formal paradigm. At that point, the number of kinks and fetishes dropped by a digit or two. Those that remained were mostly ones that made sense in one way or another. Then I had a revelation, and the resultant paradigm was pretty congruent to the Gorean one- to my reading, within the interculture variation shown in the books. That didn't raise the number, but did dot a few i's and cross a few t's, particularly with regards to most of the remaining ones making more sense.

It's not a disconnect. It's just the river seeking a new course to run. A different expression.

We can cover up who we are as much as we like, but who we are will be expressed, one way or the other. The main failure of western civilization is first and foremost this denial of reality in favor of a preferred ideal. Whether or not the ideal is healthy, the method of pursuing it by making whole nations of people lie to themselves about who and what they are is clearly not. "We are free to deny reason, but not to escape the consequences of running off the cliff we refuse to see."

Given my history of intellectual rebelliousness, I would think that showcases the extent to which the repressive elements in modern western culture permeate the mind. It took a systematic approach and intentional violation of imperatives of the old morality that did not exist in the new morality to cut enough strings to eliminate these proxy expressions. And a reduction of that order of magnitude is a strong personal experience to support what JN probably meant; we read him the same there.

As a side note, I think that iconoclastic element is necessary to fully internalize any morality, Gorean included.

Regarding sadism and revenge, we may have to disagree, but here's the thrust of my point:

One instinct or emotion can be a vessel for another.

Sadism can be a vessel for affection, as in pain play. It can be a vessel for conquest, as in violent rape. It can be a vessel for contempt. It can be a vessel for vengeance. And so forth. This is no different from how anger and aggression can be a vessel for territorial feelings. Or how valor can occur in people normally devoid of it, as a function of and vessel for some other emotion or instinct. The different parts of our mind fit together as a fairly cohesive whole, and it seems obvious to me that the same faculty that allows us to create kinks and fetishes to express our animalistic drives would be similar to or identical to the one I'm refering to here. And its preservation may well indicate that it is a positive trait.

Instead of a cascading emotional response, it's a compound response.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/7/2009 6:21:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

To a sadist, a girl serving purely out of love and devotion isn't as beautiful as one serving out of fear.


Generalize much?

quote:

There is a big difference between living with a sadist...whom the disease of sadism really establishes his outlook on how he lives his life and how he trains and moreso... how he *maintains* the slaves in his home (in regards to his 'mastery' of them), vs. living with a guy who enjoys a little s&m play now and again, but his overall outlook on how he runs his household and how he maintains his slaves on a day-to-day basis is not contaminated by the disease of sadism.


You might want to reread what I wrote about sadism as a pathology/illness/dysfunction/disease.

There is a very big difference between being eligible for a diagnostic label and being diseased. Notably, that difference is not in degree, nor in regard for consent, if you're talking objective disease. And if you're not talking about objective matters, then you may well find you'd be hard pressed to find a GFM that wasn't eligible for some neat and colorful labels. The diagnostic criteria are a consensus between several conflicting schools of psychiatry and psychology on how to label people according to symptoms, not lists of objective diseases with known etiologies or uniform presentation.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Mitzie -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 4:51:19 AM)

quote:

I'm essentially saying that my distinct impression is that Mitzie coddles them into a false sense of security with her own preconceptions about what Gorean men are and should be, with blatant disregard for the ease with which anyone can project the appearance of conforming to those preconceptions. Thus, she reinforces ignorance, rather than explaining what a slave is. Subsequently blaming others for the incongruence between her own rose colored picture of reality and the actual reality seems rather bass-ackwards to me.


Hello Aswad

It isnt just chatroom girls as you call them that come in the chatroom there are many people curious about the lifestyle and we give them links not to a fantasy roleplay site but to genuine places for the books and also to this forum.

How is explaining the lifestyle coddling slaves ?

I dont paint a rosy picture for them I do tell them what there duties are and that life with a FM is not a bed of roses but I will also say my views re seeing a Master and slave together being a slave is not all doom and gloom there are special tender moments such as lots of times I have seen the girls knelt at there Masters feet and he just plays with there hair yep with the odd yank but also with tenderness.

At a gathering once a slave spoke out of turn and the FM I was sat with sent her out into the kitchen for 10 minutes and the girl sobbed her heart out he didnt beat her black and blue nor paddle whip cut her.

I try to cover all aspects when talking about slavery the good and the bad whats wrong in that ??

Mitzie



barelynangel -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 5:11:27 AM)

Well hell, i was backhanded across the room many times when i was a slave -- was that sadism?  I didn't like it, did he enjoy it -- i have no clue lol, but the action in and of itself was appropriate at the time, because it was what he chose to do at the time when he was displeased.  There were days he wouldn't let me go out with my friends -- now if you want to talk about sadism --- that made me utterly miserable and dispared, he actually laughed at my misery and enjoyed it.   Was he a sadist then?    There was many times he enjoyed my uncomfortableness, my frustration, my pain and emotional misery at times in being a slave -- was he a sadist because of this.... many times he KEPT me in those states for a lesson he was teaching.  And yeah, i got beat and whipped also during my slavery.

angel



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 7:45:27 AM)

I probably shouldn't write this right now because I don't have a lot of time to go back and think about what you wrote.  But my initial response is this...    I think people like the term 'Sadist', just like people seem to swoon over the title 'slave' and  'Master'.     I like to paint by number to relax sometimes.... sometimes I may even paint without the numbers... doesn't make me an artist.    I like to play the flute sometimes.... doesn't make me a musician.   Maybe someone might say it would....  have me play my flute alongside the 1st chair of the Boston Pops, and then let's see what you think.  *s*

When Norman talks about the 'disease of sadism'... I am thinking it means a little more than an occassional backhand for misbehavior, etc. Or even a night of some 'just because I can' lashes with a bullwhip.
~sgs



Leonidas -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 10:05:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad


One instinct or emotion can be a vessel for another.

Sadism can be a vessel for affection, as in pain play. It can be a vessel for conquest, as in violent rape. It can be a vessel for contempt. It can be a vessel for vengeance. And so forth. This is no different from how anger and aggression can be a vessel for territorial feelings. Or how valor can occur in people normally devoid of it, as a function of and vessel for some other emotion or instinct. The different parts of our mind fit together as a fairly cohesive whole, and it seems obvious to me that the same faculty that allows us to create kinks and fetishes to express our animalistic drives would be similar to or identical to the one I'm refering to here. And its preservation may well indicate that it is a positive trait.

Instead of a cascading emotional response, it's a compound response.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Tal Aswad,

I see it in a slightly different, but similar light, and the relationship of the instinctive drive to sadism is a very good example.  It's not hard to see how the desire to take revenge on someone whom we percieve to have wronged or slighted us would have been adaptive as we evolved.  It ensures that overly agressive individuals within a social group might still suffer consequences, even if they happened to escape consequences at the time of the act due having the advantage at that time.  The experience of pleaure at seeing the object of your revenge suffer is the pleasure "pay off" for the adaptive behavior. 

Socialize a human to believe that the taking of revenge is a morally and ethically questionable, you're cutting them off (in their own mind) from that orginal context, yet the need to get the "pay off" remains.  Expressions of "sadism" of both the "play" and criminal sort are a possible response in those individuals who might otherwise have had a strong tendency toward the original, adaptive behavior (i.e. seeking revenge).

Back closer to this thread, sadism as a response can be seen in a similar light in an environment where you socialize a human to believe that exerting actual control, and imposing discpline, on another adult (especially an adult of the female kind) is morally questionable.  Are there good evolutionary reasons why men are driven to control and discipline females, and for females to be wired to seek to be controlled and disciplined?  Sure.  When we reject those, the drive has to go somewhere, especially in individuals where the original drive is strong.  The dissonance between the natural drive and our socialization, again, causes the diassociation.  It pops up as generalized "sadism" of either the criminal or consensual sort, or the desire to "play" master/slave games at parties.  Our unconsious, primative brains don't really give a fuck.  They are just looking for the pleaure payoff.  Close off the natural avenue, and another avenue is sought/becomes attractive.

That's what Norman was getting at.  If the natural avenue for the expression of these drives is left open, sadism (of both the benign and virulent sorts), as a response to the dissonance between what we want on the primal level, and what we're socialized to believe is right and wrong probably gets a lot less common. 



ishyB -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 1:15:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

To a sadist, a girl serving purely out of love and devotion isn't as beautiful as one serving out of fear.   So the question is, is this the Gorean M/s paradigm... a girl serving out of fear and trembling?   What is the underlying premise of the girl's service to her Master. 



Greetings sgs,

all slaves serve out of fear.
Fear of the consequences that is. While a girl will obviously choose to beg a collar based on love and devotion, then eventual motivator of her absolute obedience is fear.

Mastery means the determination of a man to keep a girl only on his own terms, and the willingness to apply consequences in an absolute regard when those terms are not met.
If a man is not willing/able to apply consequences when faced with disobedience, then he is not mastering the female.

To suggest that the main motivator for a girls service is love and devotion is to take out the man in the whole mastery process.
If the girl obeys even though she knows she will face no consequences whatsoever if she chooses to disobey, then she is not really obeying at all, but instead making an active, self determined choose to act in a certain manner.
She is the one really in control, because she chooses to do X, because she feels a certain way; instead of the man enforcing his will on her by letting her face consequences if she disobeys.
If the man is not needed to make her obey, well I guess that the man is not needed at all then to make her into a slave.

Now devotion certainly comes into play with this, especially in our modern world were a slave legally still has the ability to walk away. If she wasn't devoted to her owner, she wouldn't be willing to be subjected herself to his discipline; because she wouldn't care about displeasing him.
In other words: she would not fear the consequences of her disobedience, because if those consequences were stronger then her will to be with him, then she would simple walk.

Regardless of if the man is a sadist or not, the mastered female obeys out of fear for the consequences of disobeying, but as Master Leonidas pointed out: It is very important that those consequences are consistent so that the girl will know how to react to them.
Because she fears the consequences, she will always adapt her behavior accordingly. Thus in a situation were the man mixes punishing the girl for disobedient with punishing her for his own pleasure without her knowing the difference between either, you will end up with one very confused slave who constantly tries to adapt her behavior to some arbitrary rule that doesn't even really exist.

It's perfectly possible though for a girl to serve a sadist out of love and devotion (her motivator to keep her willing to subject herself to his ruling) and out of fear (her motivator to obey him to perfection) at the same time, while at the same time still fearing his sadistic streak in taking pleasure by just punishing her for no reason (in which devotion is again the motivator for her to keep subjecting herself to such treatment). As long as she understand which is which, the man being sadistic isn't really a problem at all.

In the end, if a slave does not fear the consequences of her behavior and only serves because she happens to want/choose to serve at that time because she feels all lovey dovey... how much of a slave are we really talking about?
Devotion makes a girl willing or even crave to be a certain man's slave; but fear is what actually makes her a slave, even if it's just the fear of displeasing.

I wish you well,

ishy



sweetgirlserves -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 2:06:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

Greetings sgs,

all slaves serve out of fear.
Fear of the consequences that is. While a girl will obviously choose to beg a collar based on love and devotion, then eventual motivator of her absolute obedience is fear.


Yes, the motivator for absolute obedience can be  (and i suppose, is ultimately) fear, but that does not have to be the ONLY motivator for her. 

quote:


Mastery means the determination of a man to keep a girl only on his own terms, and the willingness to apply consequences in an absolute regard when those terms are not met.
If a man is not willing/able to apply consequences when faced with disobedience, then he is not mastering the female.

agreed


quote:

To suggest that the main motivator for a girls service is love and devotion is to take out the man in the whole mastery process.

Disagreed.   Men do have other tools in their 'mastery' tool box besides fear.    If the only way a man can Master me is by making me afraid of Him and his 'consequences', I am not mastered.   I am not saying it isn't one of the tools, but it is certainly not the only tool.    Again, just being the man that he is compels you to want to be his, does it not?   So if he ceased being that man, but threatened to beat your ass for not obeying, would you still be mastered?  Or would it just not be so impossible to walk out the door now?


quote:

If the girl obeys even though she knows she will face no consequences whatsoever if she chooses to disobey, then she is not really obeying at all, but instead making an active, self determined choose to act in a certain manner.
She is the one really in control, because she chooses to do X, because she feels a certain way; instead of the man enforcing his will on her by letting her face consequences if she disobeys.
If the man is not needed to make her obey, well I guess that the man is not needed at all then to make her into a slave.

If my Master is out mowing the lawn in 100 degree heat and tells me to fetch him a cold drink, I don't need to think to myself, 'if i don't he is going to whip my ass' to feel compelled to obey.  Do you?

quote:

Now devotion certainly comes into play with this, especially in our modern world were a slave legally still has the ability to walk away. If she wasn't devoted to her owner, she wouldn't be willing to be subjected herself to his discipline; because she wouldn't care about displeasing him.
In other words: she would not fear the consequences of her disobedience, because if those consequences were stronger then her will to be with him, then she would simple walk.
 

Agreed.  Would you feel devoted to someone who constantly made you afraid because they got off on it?  But you say a slavegirl always lives in fear... i don't think so.

quote:

Regardless of if the man is a sadist or not, the mastered female obeys out of fear for the consequences of disobeying, but as Master Leonidas pointed out: It is very important that those consequences are consistent so that the girl will know how to react to them.
Because she fears the consequences, she will always adapt her behavior accordingly. Thus in a situation were the man mixes punishing the girl for disobedient with punishing her for his own pleasure without her knowing the difference between either, you will end up with one very confused slave who constantly tries to adapt her behavior to some arbitrary rule that doesn't even really exist.


Agreed, and this is the key here when we are discussing fear.   A slave girl I guess you could argue, lives in fear but SHE IS IN CONTROL of whether her fears are founded or not.   Don't want the painful consequence... then obey, be found pleasing... and you are all set.  There is no reason to fear if you obey and are found pleasing now, is there.    With a real sadist, there is still a good reason to fear....   You might find yourself enduring painful consequences *despite your best efforts* to be obedient and found pleasing.    He can just make up a reason to make you suffer.  Why would he do it... because he likes to see you afraid.     Do you see the difference?

quote:

It's perfectly possible though for a girl to serve a sadist out of love and devotion (her motivator to keep her willing to subject herself to his ruling) and out of fear (her motivator to obey him to perfection) at the same time, while at the same time still fearing his sadistic streak in taking pleasure by just punishing her for no reason (in which devotion is again the motivator for her to keep subjecting herself to such treatment). As long as she understand which is which, the man being sadistic isn't really a problem at all.

Only works if the man wants to compartmentalize it for her.   He may not want to do that...  he is a sadist, remember... he likes to see fear and misery.  

quote:

In the end, if a slave does not fear the consequences of her behavior and only serves because she happens to want/choose to serve at that time because she feels all lovey dovey... how much of a slave are we really talking about?
Devotion makes a girl willing or even crave to be a certain man's slave; but fear is what actually makes her a slave, even if it's just the fear of displeasing.


I agree.  Some men don't understand a girl's need for discipline... the security it provides.  Some even feel that they are unable to Master her because she requires the discipline and he sees it as a failure on his part, instead of just realizing that this is part of the 'mastery' process.   On the other-hand, i would say the opposite of what you said is also true...  if she only wants to/chooses to serve him because she is afraid of him only... how much of a slave is she.   Or at the very least, how *valuable* of a slave is she.   I guess that is the determine each Free Man has to make for himself.   

I wish you well,

ishy


Thank you for the discussion ishy... i learn a lot from reading what you write, and enjoy having the opportunity to discuss things with you!
~sgs



ishyB -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 3:37:19 PM)

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ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

quote:

ORIGINAL: ishyB

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

all slaves serve out of fear.
Fear of the consequences that is. While a girl will obviously choose to beg a collar based on love and devotion, then eventual motivator of her absolute obedience is fear.


Yes, the motivator for absolute obedience can be  (and i suppose, is ultimately) fear, but that does not have to be the ONLY motivator for her. 


Agreed. It is definitely not the only motivator.

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To suggest that the main motivator for a girls service is love and devotion is to take out the man in the whole mastery process.

Disagreed.   Men do have other tools in their 'mastery' tool box besides fear.    If the only way a man can Master me is by making me afraid of Him and his 'consequences', I am not mastered.   I am not saying it isn't one of the tools, but it is certainly not the only tool.    Again, just being the man that he is compels you to want to be his, does it not?   So if he ceased being that man, but threatened to beat your ass for not obeying, would you still be mastered?  Or would it just not be so impossible to walk out the door now?


You're right to disagree. Reading back my own statement I disagree with it too. [:D]
I should have phrased it differently: "To suggest that the only motivator for a girls service is love and devotion is to take out the man in the whole mastery process."
Of course this changes the whole content of the statement. So I messed up, and thank you for catching me.  Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.


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If the girl obeys even though she knows she will face no consequences whatsoever if she chooses to disobey, then she is not really obeying at all, but instead making an active, self determined choose to act in a certain manner.
She is the one really in control, because she chooses to do X, because she feels a certain way; instead of the man enforcing his will on her by letting her face consequences if she disobeys.
If the man is not needed to make her obey, well I guess that the man is not needed at all then to make her into a slave.

If my Master is out mowing the lawn in 100 degree heat and tells me to fetch him a cold drink, I don't need to think to myself, 'if i don't he is going to whip my ass' to feel compelled to obey.  Do you?


This falls back to my previous statement of fear being the main versus the only motivator.
Devotion is most certainly what compels a girl to obey in most of these type of situations.  You are right that I don't walk around all day thinking: 'Master might beat me if I X.'
But lets say that for what ever reason (the slave is busy, or sick, or whatever) she doesn't feel like getting him his drink at that time... I mean REALLY doesn't feel like it (and belief me, stuff like that does happen, slaves are not perfect creatures of divine selflessness every second of the day, I'm sure you know that), then what do you think will be her motivation to still get her ass up, run in the house and fetch him his drink?


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Now devotion certainly comes into play with this, especially in our modern world were a slave legally still has the ability to walk away. If she wasn't devoted to her owner, she wouldn't be willing to be subjected herself to his discipline; because she wouldn't care about displeasing him.
In other words: she would not fear the consequences of her disobedience, because if those consequences were stronger then her will to be with him, then she would simple walk.
 

Agreed.  Would you feel devoted to someone who constantly made you afraid because they got off on it?  But you say a slavegirl always lives in fear... i don't think so.


I do know that there has been documentation of involuntary slavery (kidnappings) where such a thing seemingly DID happen; so I'm not so sure as you seem to be that it is entirely impossible for such a thing to happen. However, I do agree that it is probably not the best and most productive route for a man to follow, nor does it probably reach to the most optimal result in terms of happiness for both the man and the mastered woman.

Would I feel devoted to somebody who made me fear them all the time? I honestly don't know, I've never been in that situation.
I do think that I personally function better then most girls would in a situation involving sever anxiety and fear. There is probably something messed up in my brain that makes that I translate sadistic acts on Master's behalf (and I'm talking mental stuff here, not so much physical sadism) into feelings of being cared for that actually deepen my devotion to him. I could provide you with examples should you want them, but I do realize that not all girls would react as positively to these types of things as I seem to do.

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Regardless of if the man is a sadist or not, the mastered female obeys out of fear for the consequences of disobeying, but as Master Leonidas pointed out: It is very important that those consequences are consistent so that the girl will know how to react to them.
Because she fears the consequences, she will always adapt her behavior accordingly. Thus in a situation were the man mixes punishing the girl for disobedient with punishing her for his own pleasure without her knowing the difference between either, you will end up with one very confused slave who constantly tries to adapt her behavior to some arbitrary rule that doesn't even really exist.


Agreed, and this is the key here when we are discussing fear.   A slave girl I guess you could argue, lives in fear but SHE IS IN CONTROL of whether her fears are founded or not.   Don't want the painful consequence... then obey, be found pleasing... and you are all set.  There is no reason to fear if you obey and are found pleasing now, is there.    With a real sadist, there is still a good reason to fear....   You might find yourself enduring painful consequences *despite your best efforts* to be obedient and found pleasing.    He can just make up a reason to make you suffer.  Why would he do it... because he likes to see you afraid.     Do you see the difference?


I do see the difference. But I disagree that it would necessarily be bad for her enslavement.
The only thing that I think is really important to keep the girl functioning on a well adapted level is for her to understand the difference between when she has been displeasing and when she is serving him by suffering for him.

I agree with you definition that a 'true' sadist enjoys seeing 'true' misery and pain.
But I think you underestimate the depths of devotion that can drive a girl to serve, even if that serving is by suffering.
This is one of those key points where the difference between devotion and fear becomes clear though. I doubt that any girl would long term subject herself to random acts of suffering for no other reason then the pleasure of the man out of fear alone. In such a situation, she would walk, even if that would take time.
However, when being truly devoted to him, she might well continuously subject herself to suffering for his amusement. Not out of fear, but out of love and the genuine NEED to please him.
Even in such a relationship, there would probably still have to be found a balance between acts of kindness and acts of sadism that works for both parties in order for the relationship to have a long term chance of succeeding.

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It's perfectly possible though for a girl to serve a sadist out of love and devotion (her motivator to keep her willing to subject herself to his ruling) and out of fear (her motivator to obey him to perfection) at the same time, while at the same time still fearing his sadistic streak in taking pleasure by just punishing her for no reason (in which devotion is again the motivator for her to keep subjecting herself to such treatment). As long as she understand which is which, the man being sadistic isn't really a problem at all.

Only works if the man wants to compartmentalize it for her.   He may not want to do that...  he is a sadist, remember... he likes to see fear and misery.  


As said above: if he doesn't want to do that, he'll end up with a very confused and badly adapted slave, and the relationship will probably not last long term.
So it comes down to the value the man places on having a well adapted slave, and the value he places on keeping her long term.
Maybe he'll judge that her value in short term suffering will mean more to him than her long term well adapted service. If that's the case, it would pretty much suck for the girl to be his slave. But then again, she is after all nothing but a slave...

quote:

quote:

In the end, if a slave does not fear the consequences of her behavior and only serves because she happens to want/choose to serve at that time because she feels all lovey dovey... how much of a slave are we really talking about?
Devotion makes a girl willing or even crave to be a certain man's slave; but fear is what actually makes her a slave, even if it's just the fear of displeasing.


I agree.  Some men don't understand a girl's need for discipline... the security it provides.  Some even feel that they are unable to Master her because she requires the discipline and he sees it as a failure on his part, instead of just realizing that this is part of the 'mastery' process.   On the other-hand, i would say the opposite of what you said is also true...  if she only wants to/chooses to serve him because she is afraid of him only... how much of a slave is she.   Or at the very least, how *valuable* of a slave is she.   I guess that is the determine each Free Man has to make for himself.   


I think the bold part in your post is very important to remember in these type of discussions. A person obeying another person's ruling over all aspects of their live, absolutely in all ways, is in my book a slave, regardless of the reason why they obey.
But when you are discussing the mastery based slavery like most people on these boards prefer, it is all a matter of which method of enforcing obedience is most preferable to get the desired results. This obviously always comes down to the individual man in question. However, I do not think that most men around these parts would be satisfied with a slave that only obeyed them out of fear. Gorean men have been known to demand far more from females than just that.

quote:


Thank you for the discussion ishy... i learn a lot from reading what you write, and enjoy having the opportunity to discuss things with you!


The pleasure is all mine, discussions like these are mental masturbation for me, so thank you for raising interesting questions. [;)]

I wish you well,

ishy



Kimveri -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 6:50:07 PM)

Evening, folks,

I'm enjoying the exchanges here immensely, thank you all!

Howdy, sgs,

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves
So the question is, is this the Gorean M/s paradigm... a girl serving out of fear and trembling?   What is the underlying premise of the girl's service to her Master.


I think there is a much more primal & fundamental fear that drives all surrendered females than just fear of pain/punishment/whips/sadism.

Fear of being not worth the trouble to discipline, being not worth keeping.

Even the devoted female who has no mastery exercised over her at all experiences this fear.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 8:58:15 PM)

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ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

I probably shouldn't write this right now because I don't have a lot of time to go back and think about what you wrote. 


Then why did you?

quote:

When Norman talks about the 'disease of sadism'... I am thinking it means a little more than an occassional backhand for misbehavior, etc. Or even a night of some 'just because I can' lashes with a bullwhip.


What makes you think I lack the insight to know exactly what I mean when I say I fit the diagnostic criteria?

I'm aware of what JN has written in the books, and at least one comment outside the books, regarding atypical sexual behavior and orientation. Some of it is reasonably accurate, in my view. Some of it has been supported by e.g. Kinsley, though that study is controversial. But some of it simply shows his age. Regardless, what is said or written doesn't change the facts, and "disease" has a pretty specific meaning that is fairly useless in the context of statistical sets of observable traits without any known etiology. Even the professionals tend to prefer different terms when they're not using it for its connotations.

In my case, I'm just very symmetrical of mind (incidentally, symmetry of flesh is a culturally invariant factor in beauty), which translates into being a bleeding heart and a vicious sadist, in an unbroken continuum from one to the other. This may be common or uncommon, I haven't read any statistics on it. But there is plenty to suggest that it is a very healthy state of affairs, when combined with a conscious, aware and well disciplined mind that can interact with this range of instinct and emotion to produce behavior that is consistently in line with my sense of ethics, and satisfying at the same time.

If you'd like to argue differently, by all means do so... after reading what's been said.

Health,
al-Aswad.



Aswad -> RE: Sadism in Gor (7/8/2009 9:30:21 PM)

Tal Leonidas,

I see the socialized barriers and the vessel function as related.

Conceptually distinct, but possibly sharing the underlying mechanism.

When a barrier is erected, it has interesting consequences. Just as morally induced dissonance can prompt a transition to a more abstract mode of moral reasoning on a lasting basis (cf. earlier threads on "stages" or strategies), so too can another sort of dissonance cause additional abstraction of the part of the mind wherein the dissonance arose, or wherein which it has its roots. The capacity for kink may actually be dependent on a barrier related dissonance occuring at some point in time. And under the right circumstances, a barrier can cause some really complex behavior to resolve the two conflicting thoughts.

Consider sadistic serial killers. It's not nearly as frightening an image to encounter someone who's simply going to shoot you. The fear of this social archetype is probably at least to some extent tied to the fact that, on an unconscious level, we have a pretty good idea of the metaphorical darkness in his mind. It's what we taught him, after all, turned inside out, a feat our own mind can easily replicate. The complexity of his behavior- sometimes ritualistic in nature- derives from a complex resolution of a dissonance, wherein his insight into fear and suffering provides the details. By contrast, one who is straight-forward is just a rabid dog to be put down.

The Norwegian mainstream kink scene provides an interesting opportunity for study of the mechanism. Our society isn't just egalitarian, but outright hostile to the notion of anyone excelling (see "Jante Law" on Wikipedia for a reference; I'll gladly translate the original, if you want to read it). Accordingly, people with an interest in D/s or M/s will go the route of S/M, which is more socially acceptable. However, it gets more convoluted. Outright kicking ass for fun isn't really all that socially acceptable, either, with our profound aversion to any natural form of aggression or violence. This, in turn, means the S/M activities "must" be cast in the form of "punishment." And with the usual circumspect social conventions for telling people what you want, the "masochist" who is looking to experience a scene with the dominance element of the relationship will intentionally misbehave in some (usually) innocent manner, prompting a "punishment" wherein the dominance element hopefully surfaces. Needless to say, some truly hopeless dates occur... I generally avoid the scene itself, among other things because of the positively insane web of rationalizations that even simple things get wrapped up in.

Call me crazy, but I figure my sadistic side is further from a pathology than what the norm is in this case.

After all, dissonance is essentially at the root of pretty much all non-organic mental illness.

And a web of rationalizations... well... that rings a bell too, dunnit?

Health,
al-Aswad.



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