Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account		 As the Collar Turns:
 Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home  Login  Search 
Espanol  Deutsch  Francais  Italiano  Portugues 

RE: Sadism in Gor


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Sadism in Gor Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/14/2009 1:38:38 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6914
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		Depends on the point of view... in mine, it is the master who either masters or does not (whether from lack of ability, or from conscious choice, or whatever). To base oneself on the commitment on the slave is to base oneself on her own self-mastery, and thereby defering the responsibility onto the slave. That's more like a servant than a slave, in many ways, or like a free companion upholding contract terms that are disagreeable: a non-slave is exerting their own will under their own agency to stay committed to a course of action, not responding to any actual mastery.

It's comparable to management foisting responsibility for good management onto the "ground level" employees; hardly a "best practice" standard, though I guess it could be argued to be a standard (that's a significant part of the reason why many companies either go tits up, or seriously under-realize their potential).

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/14/2009 2:41:42 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Off course when a relationship go sour it is usually not one sided. And I do see your point. But my personal opinion is that when a girl have committed to slavery, then she have committed to it, and while a owner can fail as a owner, still a slave who leaves whiteout permission, unless we are talking to preserve her own life or equally serious things have failed to uphold her commitment and have failed as a slave.

I wish you well



You will find some that prescribe to "slave failure", but I am not one of them. I used to believe in that, but in every case I had heard it used, it seemed to remove all responsibility from the owner for anything they may have done. Accepting the truth, especially about ourselves, is paramount to having freedom. The argument could easily be turned around so that the owner has not lived up to their committment of "excellent mastery" so they have failed. This is why I do nor prescribe to that idea.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/14/2009 2:49:16 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 27135
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		hi Mistress


quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings:

Off course when a relationship go sour it is usually not one sided. And I do see your point. But my personal opinion is that when a girl have committed to slavery, then she have committed to it, and while a owner can fail as a owner, still a slave who leaves whiteout permission, unless we are talking to preserve her own life or equally serious things have failed to uphold her commitment and have failed as a slave.

I wish you well



There is also the occassional failure of a relationship because the levels of commitment do not match. my own was such a case. he wanted only so much, and i did not know how to give less. he didnt fail me. i didnt fail him. we failed ourselves, and it took years to discover that neither of us was truly at fault. it just was not meant to be. we simply were not compatible.

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

Barack Obama failed to keep many of the campaign promises that his opponents made for him
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron
+20 Heresy Points - Hard earned!
Duchess of Dissent 1

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/14/2009 4:20:10 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
quote:

still a slave who leaves whiteout permission, unless we are talking to preserve her own life or equally serious things have failed to uphold her commitment and have failed as a slave.


This kind of mentality always makes me shake my head because this makes no sense.   If a MAN is INCAPABLE of holding her in SLAVERY based upon HIS INABILITY to master her, then if a woman can leave, she should.  There is no failure in using the self-determination HE ALLOWS HER to say I am out of here and put actions to her words.  Seriously, how is that failure?  He allows it unfortunately it kinda sucks for him when she uses the self-determination HE ALLOWS her against him and she finds her freedom he has given her through his inability to hold her.

A woman commits to being mastered and enslaved and being HELD in slavery.  That is ALL she is capable of doing and his ability to achieve those aspects forms her duties which is obedience.  

The danger arises when a woman decides to stay a slave for the sake of a LABEL versus a Man's ability to hold her.

Unfortunately, choosing to be the Master of women does leave the RESPONSIBILITY of maintaining the slavery and mastery and enslavement  HEAVILY in his shoulders more so than hers since the little concept of LAW and captive slavery is removed. sucks i guess, to have all the control and dominance and decision making in the relationship that one of the drawbacks is they also get a majority of the responsibility for maintaining the dynamic.

angel. 

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/14/2009 5:07:29 PM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 8:06:45 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Depends on the point of view... in mine, it is the master who either masters or does not (whether from lack of ability, or from conscious choice, or whatever). To base oneself on the commitment on the slave is to base oneself on her own self-mastery, and thereby defering the responsibility onto the slave.


Perhaps, but then, the slave always have the option to leave. While a owner need to master her yes, there is an element of commitment on both sides.

quote:

That's more like a servant than a slave, in many ways, or like a free companion upholding contract terms that are disagreeable: a non-slave is exerting their own will under their own agency to stay committed to a course of action, not responding to any actual mastery.


In a way yes, without breaking the law, or living in a society that accept slavery. When slavery have an element of being consensual it will never be 100 percent slavery in the sense of this person having no choice. Yes the presence of a good owner can be very overpowering, but unless you are talking mind control in some way or form here, or physically preventing the slave from leaving, there is always that choice open to the slave, so the slave to have to be a part in upholding the agreement.  Yes the owner need to Master the slave, but the slave have to actually want to be a slave and be dedicated to it in one form or another for it to work.

One can off course say that if the slave want to leave then the Master have failed in mastering, that if he Mastered her properly then the desire to leave would not be there. Yes I guess one can look at it that way. But then I have always believed it takes two to tango.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 8:18:56 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

This kind of mentality always makes me shake my head because this makes no sense.   If a MAN is INCAPABLE of holding her in SLAVERY based upon HIS INABILITY to master her, then if a woman can leave, she should.


Unless someone uses physical violence to stop a slave from leaving, she can leave, she can pick up the phone, call a cab and be out of there. Like I told Aswad a owner can have a powerful presence, and one can want to serve, want to love, want to be there so much that that desire keep one from leaving, but the slave have two feet and can leave.

quote:

There is no failure in using the self-determination HE ALLOWS HER to say I am out of here and put actions to her words.Seriously, how is that failure?  He allows it unfortunately it kinda sucks for him when she uses the self-determination HE ALLOWS her against him and she finds her freedom he has given her through his inability to hold her.


So you think a man should break the law and physically restrain a slave from leaving?

quote:

The danger arises when a woman decides to stay a slave for the sake of a LABEL versus a Man's ability to hold her.


I never said for the sake of a label, but to the man they serve, to the feelings he inspire and because of a commitment to the man they serve. I am not saying that a slave is just there because it strikes their fancy, it is possibly to control someone with one's sheer presence, cult leaders have shown that for example. I am just saying that as long as the relationship is legal, the slave have the option of walking, and then she do fail in my opinion in her commitment to her Master. If he also fails at Mastery, that is quite possible, and probable, but to me when you have made a commitment and do not live up to it, then you have failed at that commitment.

I wish you well




_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 10:14:29 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Nephandi, who said anything about violence or restraint. 

quote:

one can want to serve, want to love, want to be there so much that that desire keep one from leaving, but the slave have two feet and can leave.


Damn straight that is why all of the bolded is why that concept doesn't MAKE someone a slave --- it is also why many FW can be FC's of Men and serve, love, and be with him so much she doesn't want to leave either.   Does that make her a slave?  The difference between the two is simple, one uses self-determination to remain, and one is held by a power of a Man's determination and will.  A FW commits to the Man she is companioned with, a slave does not.  A slave commits to being mastered and enslaved, held in slavery and reacting to mastery and his will.

i am not sure what your experience is with mastery but no -- the ability to LEAVE is NOT that easy and many times not doable when a woman is held in mastery.  I never said a word about physical restraint and most slaves can't leave when they try many times are told by their Masters -- if you can leave then do so.  I am sorry but i really don't believe you understand the power of a man's mastery over a woman.  I am not talking about his presence, i am talking about his ability as a Man who has determined to master a woman's ability to HOLD her to exist in his life as he wishes.  A FW fails in her commitment if she doesn't honor the FCship through its end.

MANY men cannot do that and because so it is not the failure of the SLAVE who uses her autonomy and self-determination to LEAVE because he is incapable of holding her.    Sorry but if a Man is incapable of mastering a slave, why the heck should she stick around and humor him so his ego is fed when they BOTH know she is the one in control and the slavery is a mockery.

The problem is --- many Men are incapable of mastering a female (heck even themselves) but they like to play at the M/s concept so they look to the idea of a woman holding herself TO THE LABEL of being a slave because well gee golly she consented to being on and committed to being his slave.  Sorry to me this is not a boyfriend/girlfriend concept, its not a marraige, its not going steady idea, its a Master and slave.  A slave is not held to a committment of a label she has taken on, she is held by the ability of the Man to master her.  Otherwise, she is simply self-determining and as its been said MANY TIMES -- that is a Free Woman.

You can place a responsibility of acting as a partner on the slave but that doesn't make her a slave it simply makes her a FW choosing to hold the label of a slave and acting out what she deems the part while with a certain man who is incapable of achieving the mastery that makes her slave in actuality.   I can see how saying a slave failed to be a slave because she didn't hold herself in slavery as pretending she is chained physically or by law, makes MANY people feel better lol i mean hell yes let's place the responsibility of maintaining the slavery on the slave, but to me, that is simply a woman using her self-determination to leave a situation wherein a Man is incapable of holding her in slavery through his ability to master.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 12:47:59 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

I am not going to argue against it as it is a concept I do not understand nor know much about. Nor see fully how could be. It may be that it is because of my syndrome. I have never been in love. Loved someone yes, but never had that all powerful, the world seam aglow love, perhaps that means I lack the ability to feel so strongly for someone that their will could affect me in such a way, I mean when I was Aswad's slave. I would never leave him, and I would never leave him now that I am his free Companion. He is all to me, but I never felt that I could not go if I really wanted to. But I think that have more to do with my inability to be so taken with another person, than any lack on Aswad's part. I will not argue what you are saying because I do not know of it, or understand it. But I will say that my personally do not see how such a thing could be barring occult methods to make it happen.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 1:49:23 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Nephandi,

It is two sided, just as I told you. There could be issues with the slave, so that no amount of mastery will take hold, and/or their could be problems with the owner, so that they are not actually doing or being what is necessary to enslave the girl. Those that are firmly on one side, or the other for the failure, do not recognize all of the issues that could arise from either or both sides. This makes it so their perspective is correct, but only half so.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 4:12:51 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Hey Nephandi, i have a question for you -- do you see where i AM saying a woman can and does fail?  BTW, Its not in her leaving.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 4:43:44 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings Orion

I agree with what you are saying in your last post, It is not much more to say for me. I see your point.

Greetings barelynangel

No I did not see that, I guess it can be a language barrier. But I really did not understand your post. Thereby me refraining from really commenting on it.

I wish you both well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 5:01:57 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		A woman does not fail as a slave because she is not mastered and leaves a Man who is not capable of mastering her, a woman who stays fails herself at the very least but also the relationship if she remains humoring a Man by playing the ROLE as his slave, instead of being his slave.    There is NOTHING wrong with a woman making the decisions BECAUSE SHE CAN that she is leaving because he has not done HIS part of the M/s relationship and mastered her.  He has failed to master her and therefore, failed to maintain what he determined for her.    If he cannot acknowledge this and release her from going through the motions of something she is not, then the woman should or else she fails -- but not as being a slave, you can't fail to BE a slave when you never were one due to his failure to master and enslave.    If he can't own up to his own failure, then someone has too.

Its not even a shared failure -- how do you tell a woman -- sorry you failed here because you weren't mastered.  That is the most insecure silly concept a Man can say about a woman he was incapable of mastering.  A woman does not fail at something because she decided to stop going through the motions and seek out a way to actually live what she needs to be.

Her failure is not as a slave because she leaves, but she fails IF she stays and goes through the motions to humor a Man who wants to be a master.  People always seem so set on the end of the relationship that they refuse to see the failure if the relationship continued on a lie.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 7/15/2009 5:02:41 PM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 7:26:12 PM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 257
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

From what I understand in a Gorean M/s relationship the slave is 'mastered' and not an active agent.  She's submitting to the pull of the dominant male. Question - how does that affect the idea of consent, especially in this area where consent means it/s BDSM and non-consent means it's physical abuse?


Those terms hold relevance only in a frame of reference that acknowledges consent as relevant. The notion of some non-agentive status for a slave that's not being forcibly restrained is not legally recognized in any jurisdiction outside Norway, as far as I know (up here it may be covered under Negligent Rape- wtf?!?). One that is forcibly restrained makes the consent issue purely academic, there being more important points that overshadow it. And in the strictest sense, Gorean ethics aren't particularly centered on slave consent to begin with; that's more of a pragmatic matter, or one of law and allegiance etc.

Let me give you another hypothetical instead (there's a bridge in there, too, of course):

What if there were a person that was genetically disposed to consenting?

How'd you evaluate and deal with their consent?

Would you respect their consent?

Health,
al-Aswad.



That's a good question. I suppose it would depend on whether they had a tendency towards consenting and compromising, or if they were mentally or emotionally unable to deny consent. I would respect the consent of the first, but the second would most likely be a candidate for a court appointed guardian.

Which do you think a mastered slave would be considered?



Hello Elisabella,

That is a most excellent question and what I was alluding to earlier when I mentioned to someone in an earlier post that consentual slavery really only involved 'consent' at the beginning of the process... if enslavement is actually taking its hold, the 'slave' loses the ability to consent any longer as she is 'operating under the influence' of her 'Master's mastery' of her. In my opinion, the process of enslavement removes the empowerment of the slave to act out of her own will, for her own behalf. My point being, just because it appears that a slave is consenting to whatever is happening to her, if she is truly enslaved, she isn't.

My personal opinion... a truly enslaved person is the sort in need of the guardian... and one would hope that the best guardian for her is her Master. If not... she can be rather... well.... fucked.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 7:53:30 PM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings Master's
Greetings Mistresses
Greetings girl's

This one believes several factors can keep a slave from simply "leaving", even a woman who's not enslaved.. Love, devotion, surrender, commitment and more. It does not make a man weak or unable to master a slut if the determination to serve and please is not in the girl. It does not necessarily make the slut less a slave because she does not live up to or possess the status quo of a mastered slut.

Many a time, we will see similarities in ourselves amongst others and sometimes we will have uniqueness that can't actually be compared to or explained in the next  relationship or the masses.

No this one will never leave her owner. Ever! ( Heading on 24 years)) Does it mean he master's her like few other could? Does it mean she still has the power to go? That is an answer held within the slavery itself. Not just man held slavery, but internal slavery as well. Sometimes it takes both simultaneously.

It's a tough one. But no one ever said it would be easy.

With respect,
~twinkle


_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/15/2009 10:49:38 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6914
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Nephandi, who said anything about violence or restraint. 


I did, in the post she replied to. Removing the ignore will reveal a lot of posts.

quote:

I am sorry but i really don't believe you understand the power of a man's mastery over a woman.


But, then, that's the general idea of a born-and-bred FW, isn't it?

To comprehend freedom by nature, rather than happenstance.

I never freed her; I waited for her to realize she was free.

quote:

Sorry but if a Man is incapable of mastering a slave, why the heck should she stick around and humor him so his ego is fed when they BOTH know she is the one in control and the slavery is a mockery.


There are reasons for some slaves to stick around. But commitment alone isn't it.

I agree that when commitment is the only factor, it becomes a mockery.

Natural inclination and desire to stay as a slave is valid, though.

quote:

Otherwise, she is simply self-determining and as its been said MANY TIMES -- that is a Free Woman.


FW have been sold short many times on this board. Still doesn't limit the reality.

Regardless, if the man claims she is a slave, then it's his word to back up.

If he makes a fool of himself instead, well... that's failure, innit?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/16/2009 4:11:51 AM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings,

since when does a slave put conditions on her slavery? You have to actively Master me so I feel Mastered or you the Master failed? I guess it is the difference between a man putting a collar around a girls neck and telling her 'you are mine' and a girl spending time with a man until she reaches the point where she is on her knees helpless before him.

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 176
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/16/2009 5:10:15 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		Hi SGS,

That's actually a pretty scary concept to me.  Yes indeed one would hope that she had a good master, but what if she didn't?  Do you think that cruelty (as the slave recognizes it, we all have different threshholds) would weaken those bonds of mastery?  I've never personally understood why women stay in abusive relationships - I was in a relationship like that for a grand total of two or three days...in other words until I realized he was a jerk.

I can logically understand the idea of someone being mastered to the point where they'll do anything for the other person, but at the expense of their own self-preservation? How does that happen?

Take care,
Bella


_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/16/2009 5:18:57 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1711
Status: offline 		Hello Elisabella,

quote:

 I've never personally understood why women stay in abusive relationships - I was in a relationship like that for a grand total of two or three days...in other words until I realized he was a jerk.


Keep in mind not ALL abusive relationships start as abusive.   I have used the analogy of  the frog for years.   If you put a frog in hot boiling water, he will jump out; if you put a frog in nice cool water....and oh so slowly turn up the heat, you will have a boiled frog.   Many times, women in an abusive relationship don't realize it is abusive.  


Hope things are going well for you.

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/16/2009 5:27:01 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

since when does a slave put conditions on her slavery? You have to actively Master me so I feel Mastered or you the Master failed? I guess it is the difference between a man putting a collar around a girls neck and telling her 'you are mine' and a girl spending time with a man until she reaches the point where she is on her knees helpless before him.



Greetings kisshou,

the way I was taught slavery is ALWAYS a conditional relationship. However, it is a relationship that is based ONLY on the conditions the man puts on it.

I think you see 'failing to master' as something to concrete, as something the girl can blame the man for, like for instance no using the whip enough, or not making her do X, or making her do X... while it isn't like that at all.
Failure to master isn't something that a girl holds over a man as a treat "if you don't do X, I wont feel mastered and will leave!"

Mastery is the man putting conditions on the relationship, it is basically him saying: "I will keep you ONLY as my slave, ONLY on my own terms and will accept NONE of your conditions. If you disobey me, you will face the consequences."
It is basically the man making sure that the girl will focus on his desires before her own.

So if a man stops doing that, if he stops making the girl put his desires before her own, then he is failing to master her. If he lets her set the terms of their relationship, or place conditions, or limits on him, then he is failing to master her.
This isn't something the man fails towards the expectations the girl placed on him though, it isn't the girl saying: "hey, you're not beating me enough, now I no longer 'feel' mastered."
Instead, it is the man failing to the conditions HE placed on their relationship.
HE set the terms that he was going to keep her as his slave.
Now he is not keeping her as his slave, which means he failed to master her... he failed himself, he failed his own terms...NOT the girl's terms.

Many girls will not even leave if a man fails to master them.
The will like Angel said 'go through the motions of slavery'. They will basically pretend to be a slave, because they themselves love them man, or are devoted to him, or simple because they like to be a slave.
They will serve him, even though there are no conditions placed on them, no consequences to their actions, no real expectations.
They are holding themselves as a slave by their own self-determination.

If a girl serves a man perfectly out of her own free will, despite that he does nothing to hold her to any consequences... is she really a slave? Or a free woman choosing to serve as a slave?
Can you really be a slave simply by choosing to serve? Can you really take the man out of the equation and be a slave in a vacuum?

I wish you well,

ishy

< Message edited by ishyB -- 7/16/2009 5:34:41 AM >

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Sadism in Gor - 7/16/2009 5:45:37 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Hello Elisabella,

quote:

 I've never personally understood why women stay in abusive relationships - I was in a relationship like that for a grand total of two or three days...in other words until I realized he was a jerk.


Keep in mind not ALL abusive relationships start as abusive.   I have used the analogy of  the frog for years.   If you put a frog in hot boiling water, he will jump out; if you put a frog in nice cool water....and oh so slowly turn up the heat, you will have a boiled frog.   Many times, women in an abusive relationship don't realize it is abusive.  


Hope things are going well for you.

Take care,

Elizabeth



Hi Elizabeth,

That's true...I remember reading in one of my sociology or psych classes that abusive relationships tend to follow a pattern as well - the abuser (not always the man, either) does something horrible, then apologizes and goes out of their way to make amends, and swears they'll never do it again...until they do.  I guess it was easy for me to leave after three days because there was no emotional attachment, no love involved. If you've been with someone for years, you have a different perspective over what's worth ending the relationship over.

But when it reaches a certain point, when it seems like you're walking on eggshells just to try to prevent the other person from snapping, can't you say 'enough is enough' and go back to being "I" instead of "us"?  That's probably a lot harder, when a slave is mastered...but I really don't understand how that mastery can overcome basic human instinct.  I guess that's because I've never been mastered, it's probably like trying to explain love to someone who's never been in love, but it just seems awful.  I'd hope if the slave wasn't strong enough to leave, one of the man's friends would 'steal' her away.

I'm doing pretty well, thanks for asking   I found a cute little apartment to sublet, and am pretty sure I'll get it...and hopefully this visa process will be over soon and I can go home.  Seven and a half months without seeing the man I love takes its toll.  I hope you're doing well, and please give Brule my regards.

Take care,
Bella


_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 180
Page:   <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Sadism in Gor Page: <<   < prev  7 8 [9] 10 11   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2012
Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

2.484