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Sadism in Gor - 6/22/2009 4:27:04 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Howdy, folks,

I’ve been following this tangent on Brule’s thread & thought that Orion’s suggestion that the derailment be taken to its own thread was an excellent idea, so…here it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie
I always have said that Goreans are not Sadists however a well known FW on these boards told me that she knows quite a few Gorean Sadists I found that a bit of an eye opener so I am wondering if you can have Gorean Sadists and Gorean Leathers ??


Hello, Mitzie. I may well be the “FW” you refer to here as I believe I’ve replied to you on another forum on this matter. In my response, if I recall, I stated that there is a difference between clinical sadism (as defined in the DSM) & sexual sadism (as discussed in lifestyle forums as well as in the Gor novels). As I understand it, clinical sadism consists of an inability to achieve sexual arousal without the infliction of pain upon an unwilling victim.

Yes, there ARE examples of sexual sadism in the novels. I find it difficult to imagine how anyone could miss those rather provocative examples Norman wrote about repetitively. I’ll include a few examples here:

quote:

“To be sure, once the slave has learned her condition, or learned her collar, as the Goreans say, she has no doubt whatsoever of this dominance, and her subjection to it. The mere sight of a slave whip is then enough to make her juice. Gags, blindfolds, and such devices, then, may or may not be used, as the master wishes.”~pg321Vagabonds

(…)“She knelt in the position of the pleasure slave, back in the alcove, on the scarlet furs, in the light of the small lamp. I looked about. There were some chains in the alcove, and a coil of rope, and a whip. ‘If Master desires special equipment,’ she said, ‘it will be provided by Busebius.’ ‘There is more then enough here to tame you,’ I said.’”~pg13Rogue

“One of the utilities of a slave, of course, is to occasionally serve as the helpless object upon which the Master may vent his dissatisfaction, his frustration or anger. Too, of course, they may serve many other related purposes, such as the relief of tensions, to relax oneself and even to calm oneself for clear thought.”~pg134 Magicians

“How beautiful I must look to him, I thought. And I had sensed his incredible maleness, the animal maleness of him, so different from the thwarted, crippled sexuality so commended and tragically endemic among the males of Earth. For the first time in my life I felt I understood what might be the meaning of the expression ‘male,’ and as I lay before him, too, dimly, it frightening me, what might be the meaning of the expression ‘female.’ How beautiful, I thought, I must look to him, lying bound, totally vulnerable, helpless at his feet. How such a sight must stir the splendor of his manhood, to see the female, his, caught, helpless at his feet, his to do with in lust and pleasure, and joy, as he pleased, helpless to escape him, free for him to work his will upon her!”~pg27SlaveGirl


As you can see from this last passage, the sexually sadistic behavior so illustrated is not portrayed by Norman as a “disease”. It is, in fact, shown to us in this context as an example of the natural “animal maleness”, the “splendor of manhood” displayed by Gorean men. They are not incapable of arousal in other more ‘conventional’ ways. They simply find this sexual sadism to be one of many natural interactions available to them for their enjoyment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie
in the books its classed as a disease yet I get told quite a few on here are Sadists and who are Gorean as well.


I assume that you mean in the Gorean books but there’s only one book, & one passage, where sadism is called a disease in all 27 novels. Considering that the DSM classed sadism as a disease (along with homosexuality) when that particular novel was written & has changed its definitions since may suggest that we should be adaptable as well.

Norman did not carve “Ten Gorean Commandments” into stone to be immutable for all eternity. He laid out some truths that each must recognize, grasp, claim & keep for themselves, in their own way. To lay out rules for “free” would be a bit contradictory, wouldn’t it? That’d not be a ‘master morality’, but a ‘slave morality’.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie
It will be interesting to see who posts on here now and who admits to being a so called Gorean Sadist (…)


The insinuation that some people might do things they would not “admit to” (be that sadism or otherwise) says more about the person making the insinuation than it does about the potential sadists & their willingness to share the details of their sexual intimacies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mitzie
I for one would like to know how different minds work re our lifestyle and what it does and doesnt entail.


A free person’s ‘lifestyle’ entails what the free person decides it entails. The term “lifestyle” has to do with habits of use, consumption & recreation. I happen to believe that my philosophy & morality spring from a deeper place than my ‘habits of recreation’, but that’s just me. The truth is, how you live (& recreate) is defined by you if you are free, & by some external authority if you are not free.

But I agree in that it can be interesting to discuss different views….so here’s the thread for discussion on sadism & Gorean living.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_
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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/22/2009 5:28:42 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Sadism doesn't mean what you think it means.  Sadism (even the sexual kind) is deriving sexual pleasure from the infliction of suffering.  You need to read the quotes that you supplied again.  Most of the quotes that you provide refer to masculine sexual gratification at the (sometimes painful) subjugation of a female.  Men have a natural predatory instinct when is comes to women, and to make one helpless to them, and make her feel her helplessness, is a natural artifact of our evolution.  If this is news to you, I'm suprised, but sadism it ain't.

One of your quotes is not like the others.  It has to do with a master beating a slave to vent anger or frustration.  It was actually a noted practice among Romans (where I'm sure the good Dr. Lange got it).  If you watched the TV series "Rome" there was a dramatized example there, too.  Again, not sadism.  It's not the master deriving sexual gratification from the infliction of suffering on the slave.  It's more akin to kicking the dog after a tough day at the office.  It's generally a wise practice if you are collared member of a household to keep yourself in high enough esteem in your master's eyes that you do not become the object of his anger and frustration in this manner.  To use the dog analogy again, a man's less likely to kick a beloved and obedient dog out of frustration that one who peed on the rug yesterday.

It's important to keep calling spades spades, and not blur the distinction until we can't tell them from clubs.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/22/2009 5:29:22 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 6595
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Kimveri and all,

I believe you covered things quite well. I would like to add something though. I read an essay, I believe it was by Marcus, but not sure. It was written about BDSM and Homosexuality I believe. I believe it is this essay where I read "If someone wants to have sex with a mailbox, and it pleases them, there is nothing unGorean about it."

I am also glad you mentioned clinical sadism, as I could not remember how it was labeled. Truth be told, I man handle my girl quite a bit. I am pretty rough and hands on. Sometimes I am lash on. Sometimes I feel more like being soft and slow. Often times I bite and leave painful marks. It is pretty primal to me, and that is often how I like it. (maybe TMI but that is just me)

I have no problem stating what I do, even if others may find it shameful or wrong. There are times I will not say anything, but that is more out of privacy than shame. If someone feels they need to hide something, there is likely a reason they feel bad about it, and need to come to terms with that. It could be they care too much what society thinks, they have some guilt from their upbringing and have not unlearned that behavior, or it may actually be something against their moral code.

I have rambled enough for now.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/22/2009 5:58:43 PM   
Crell


Posts: 59
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline 		For reference, the oft-cited quote:

"Perhaps it should only be added that the Gorean master, though often strict, is seldom cruel. The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one. She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty, for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor. This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys, or fails to please her master. On the other hand, it is not too unusual a set of comparments on Gor where the master, in effect, willingly wears the collar, and his lovely slave, by the practice of the delightful wiles of her sex, with scandalous success wheedles her way triumphantly from the satisfaction of one whim to the next."

--Outlaw of Gor, p. 53-54

(I suspect many forget the second half of that paragraph.)


I have always taken that passage to refer not to sexual or playful sadism but to "wanton cruelty" and obvious abuse. If you're not routinely pissed off at the world and feeling powerless to do anything about it, then you're less likely to take out your frustrations by needlessly beating your wife/companion/slave/children/whatever, even if the law would technically allow you to do so. That's an entirely different matter from sexual or playful sadism, which are not inherently a bad or unhealthy thing. (Although they can be if done for the wrong reasons.)

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 5:13:31 AM   
Mitzie


Posts: 680
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline 		I have to go out for a while but I would like to post this then come back to the thread later

Sadism
(based on pornographic novels depicting sexual gratification by inflicting pain and suffering which were written by the "Marquis de Sade")

The opposite of masochism and its almost inevitable companion
The Marquis de Sade, another nomenclature for the Count Donatien Alphonse Francois de Sade (1740-1814), had a brief military career before devoting his life to debauchery and perversion.

Shortly after his marriage into a wealthy family, de Sade started a series of liaisons with prostitutes, luring them to one of his living quarters for sessions of sexual abuse.
After each scandal became public, de Sade was confined to one fortress then another, etc.
With each release, he started his pursuits again.
As a result of his scandalous crimes, de Sade was sentenced to death in absentia in the 1770s and just barely escaped the guillotine during the French Revolution.
While he was in prison, he wrote novels and plays in which he emphasized the sexual compulsions that consumed his own life.
Apparently de Sade's printed productions had an underground reputation throughout the 19th century.
Before the century ended, the term sadism had become the established word for the sexual perversion in which gratification results with the infliction of pain on other people.
—Based on information from Webster's Word Histories.


For other eponyms, see the Eponymous Words Directory.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

leptosadism
A mild form of sadism.
necrosadism
Sexual gratification derived by mutilating corpses.
sadism
1. The gaining of sexual gratification by causing physical or mental pain to other people or the acts that produce such gratification.
2. Being cruel for fun; the gaining of pleasure from causing physical or mental pain to people or animals.
3. Cruelty; great physical or mental cruelty.
4. Etymology: from French sadisme, from Count Donatien A.F. de Sade (1740-1815).
Although he was not a marquis, he is usually now called one. He was notorious for the cruel sexual practices he described in his novels. "Sadist" was first recorded in 1897; "sadistic" is from 1892, and was formed from the German sadistisch.

Further clarification of the term sadism
A sadist delights in cruelty. His pleasure is to inflict mental or physical pain on others.

Loosely speaking, his satisfaction comes simply from watching someone worry or appear apprehensive, or from twisting the tail of a puppy to hear it yelp.

On the other hand, the more serious form of mental aberration from which sadists suffer is founded on sexual gratification, the obtaining of sexual release by inflicting pain on a love object.

—Excerpts from The Story Behind the Word by Morton S. Freeman.
sadistic, sadistically
1. Sexual pleasure obtained by inflicting harm (physical or psychological) on others.
2. Deriving sexual gratification or the tendency to derive sexual gratification from inflicting pain or emotional abuse on others.
3. The tendency to derive pleasure, from cruelty; extreme cruelty.

Mitzie

_____________________________

"The free should not be slave, and the slave should not be free," he said. "I do not understand," she said. "Just as it is wrong for the properly free to be enslaved," he said, "so, too, it is wrong for the properly enslaved to be free."PoG



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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 9:05:21 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Howdy, Leonidas,

I'm unclear what your definition of sexual sadism might be. Here's the source of my stance...

From the DSMIV, section 302.84:

quote:

Sadistic fantasies or acts may involve activities that indicate the dominance of the person over the victim (e.g., forcing the victim to crawl or keeping the victim in a cage). They may also involve restraint, blindfolding, paddling, spanking, whipping, pinching, beating, burning, electrical shocks, rape,(...)


It would appear to me that just about everything done to slaves in the novels would qualify as milder forms of "sexual sadism", per the current DSM.

I wish you well,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 9:15:36 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3278
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		-fast reply-

As crazy as it sounds this is one of those terms we often use that actually does need debate in order to establish our "Gorean perspective". As I am one of those that has yet to wrap my mind around the idea, I am I suppose searching for the definition, I'll be watching with great interest, I hope you all continue this discussion.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 9:37:16 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

quote:

Sadistic fantasies or acts may involve activities that indicate the dominance of the person over the victim (e.g., forcing the victim to crawl or keeping the victim in a cage). They may also involve restraint, blindfolding, paddling, spanking, whipping, pinching, beating, burning, electrical shocks, rape,(...)


It would appear to me that just about everything done to slaves in the novels would qualify as milder forms of "sexual sadism", per the current DSM.

I wish you well,

~Kimveri


You're appealing to an irrelevant authority.  Somebody's current definition of "sadism" might include any act of sexual dominance.  Frankly, that doesn't suprise me.  The way things are going, I'm sure that in a few years sadism will be defined as anything that might tend to hurt someone's feelings.  However, that's clearly not what Norman had in mind when he said that sadism was largely absent on Gor. He was talking about the dictionary definition, which is deriving sexual gratification through the infliction of suffering, and so am I.

The "disease" of sadism as Norman described it isn't hard to understand.  Its a disassociation of the natural tendency to dominante and submit that all humans have from their natural origins, so that the infliction of cruelty and suffering itself becomes the object of sexual fantasy and desire.  In other words, sexual desire has become fixated on something other than fuckin'.  Some folks do have that disease, just like some folks get off on playing with shit.  They got a wire crossed somewhere.

Sadism (see above) and the masculine drive to assert (yes, physically at times) domination over a female, don't have much to do with each other, which was Norman's point.  One is a natural fact of our evolution.  The other is a perversion thereof, in Norman's opinion, because the natural desire got repressed.

What is it that you are arguing for, anyway?  That's OK to call yourself a Gorean and a Sadist at the same time?  If so, I think you're missing something essential.  A Gorean wouldn't want to.  We don't see our desire to enslave and subjugagte slave girls as a "kink".  We see it as the natural state of affairs.


< Message edited by Leonidas -- 6/23/2009 9:39:03 AM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 9:49:17 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 21904
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

You're appealing to an irrelevant authority.  Somebody's current definition of "sadism" might include any act of sexual dominance.  Frankly, that doesn't suprise me.  The way things are going, I'm sure that in a few years sadism will be defined as anything that might tend to hurt someone's feelings.  

We don't see our desire to enslave and subjugate slave girls as a "kink".  We see it as the natural state of affairs.



See Also:  Gorean Forum > Pussy Nation.

(For the folks that are not in the know; strive to keep your natural manhood or natural womanhood as the case may be)

Hup (and not Hup)


_____________________________

'There is no center for the promulgation and maintenance of kinky values, no pope of rope, or magistrate extraordinaire of sadistic affairs.' Jack Rinella

THE ICECREAM CONE NEXT TO YOUR NAME

(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 10:10:03 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		I appeal to no authority but my own first-hand experience & conclusions. However, I am open to discussing the experience & conclusions of others, regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

In my opinion, the line between some (pick yer fave) dictionary's current definition of "sadism" & the DSM's current definition of "sadism" is pretty ephemeral. Both include the phrase you cited as your own definition.

However, those definitions have changed in the decades since Norman wrote of sadism as a "disease". For me, it's not too difficult to consider the idea that the behaviors which do (& don't) fit the classification (be that the DSM classification or yer fave dictionary) may have also changed.

Having worked in the mental health field for a wee bit, I tend to feel that many of the human behaviors that get classed as "diseases" or "disabilities" are, in fact, merely misunderstood natural behaviors. I also think there's altogether too much focus on medicating away the consequences of repression, denial & culturally-derived emotional 'traumas'. "

"Take a pill, that'll fix it." -- what a cop-out.

"A man who seeks to dominate, subjugate & sexually 'handle' you has a disease." -- another cop-out.

Perhaps you feel differently. Either way, it's a point worth discussing.

~Kimveri 

< Message edited by Kimveri -- 6/23/2009 10:11:08 AM >

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 10:26:39 AM   
Mitzie


Posts: 680
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline 		ok I see references to how old the books are ect and Normans thinking back then so I have just been rereading PoG and found this quote and seeing as prize of Gor is new it hopefully shows Normans thoughts up to date

quote:

A woman is almost never beaten with the full
measure of a man's strength. There would be little point to
that, and it would be brutal. She is, after all, small and
beautiful, and only a female. The point of a beating is not to
hurt her but to improve her.PoG


The Gorean Lifestyles section on here is to help others understand the lifestyle but to me there seems to be a big divide as to what is and what isnt correct'

is there such a things as a Gorean Sadist and/or a Gorean Leather ?

I would like also to say that I have friends who are Sadists so I am not saying what they do is wrong but what I am asking is does it belong in this lifestyle I see comments the other say where a girl was saying she is a kajira and behind her in the pic on the wall was BDSM equipment and a sarcastic comment was made about that.

As I say there is clearly some confusion. I dont want to help girls go to people who I believe to be Gorean only for her to come back cut battered bitten and bruised when I clearly tell her she will be safe ??

Mitzie

_____________________________

"The free should not be slave, and the slave should not be free," he said. "I do not understand," she said. "Just as it is wrong for the properly free to be enslaved," he said, "so, too, it is wrong for the properly enslaved to be free."PoG



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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 10:34:01 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 3911
Status: offline 		Could the disease Norman was referring to be the concept that its a whole construct of a Man who lacks or feels the lack of power among his peers turns to trying to obtain such power by utilizing those helpless and vulnerable and their fear and pain as a way to "feel" powerful that he lacks among his peers?  Would this not alleviate the concept of how people utilize the BDSM terms?

Wouldn't this be a way Goreans would find this concept few and far between and be seen as cruelty rather than natural enjoyment of our animalistic nature when it comes to interaction of a Man and his slave (or even the FC if that was spoken about lol)

i never saw any of what happened in the books as concept of sadism sexual or otherwise but simply a natural existance of Men and slaves.  To me, Gorean Men have no need of the concept of sadism (which is how i see it as described above) because they are by the very nature of who they are capable of generating their own personal power because its a concept that exists at their core. 

Again, this is an interpretation based on not really understanding sadism as many do, but have never seen what occurs in the books as sadism in any fashion because the Man has always had power that he had no need to find it with a slave.  I also look forward to seeing where this goes and how off my interpretation is lol, because due to ignorance of the sadism concept, i only saw the natural concept of power involved and then can see how a Man being sadistic as i described above -- would in fact not be part of Gor.

angel 

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/23/2009 10:46:12 AM >

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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 11:31:32 AM   
Sybilla


Posts: 24
Joined: 6/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Sadism doesn't mean what you think it means.  Sadism (even the sexual kind) is deriving sexual pleasure from the infliction of suffering.  You need to read the quotes that you supplied again.  Most of the quotes that you provide refer to masculine sexual gratification at the (sometimes painful) subjugation of a female.  Men have a natural predatory instinct when is comes to women, and to make one helpless to them, and make her feel her helplessness, is a natural artifact of our evolution.  If this is news to you, I'm suprised, but sadism it ain't.

(Emphasis mine)

This confuses me.  Sexual gratification via infliction of pain is clearly the theme of 3 of the 4 quotes as well as a fair definition of sadism. I think whether pain is necessarily the only way to gain another's submission is debatable, but assuming it is, sexual gratification is still a component.  Even if the characteristic is a natural artifact, why isn't it sadism?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
You're appealing to an irrelevant authority.  Somebody's current definition of "sadism" might include any act of sexual dominance.

I can understand your objection to the DSM as a reference if it's because it is a "handbook" of anti-social aberration.  But due to the "skewed" psychological profile of Norman's female population (comparatively speaking) what would be considered anti-social behaviour on Earth would not be considered so on Gor.  I think if one bears this idea in mind the DSM could still be a useful tool descriptive-wise.  

Or is this not your meaning?

(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 3:19:03 PM   
Saffleur


Posts: 231
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Lenoir NC
Status: offline 		Tal Everyone,

Frankly speaking, who cares if someone enjoys sadistic pleasures in their bedroom? Gorean or not, that's their bedroom policy, doesn't mean it is anyone elses.

Kimveri,

While your post was an enjoyable read I don't think the quotes you chose have to do with sadism...

quote:

“To be sure, once the slave has learned her condition, or learned her collar, as the Goreans say, she has no doubt whatsoever of this dominance, and her subjection to it. The mere sight of a slave whip is then enough to make her juice. Gags, blindfolds, and such devices, then, may or may not be used, as the master wishes.”~pg321Vagabonds


The slave whip is commonly used to caress the slaves nether regions, it's used often on the selling block to prove without a shadow of a doubt a woman is wanton and has sexual desires. It's a tool, it wasn't used for pleasure.

quote:

(…)“She knelt in the position of the pleasure slave, back in the alcove, on the scarlet furs, in the light of the small lamp. I looked about. There were some chains in the alcove, and a coil of rope, and a whip. ‘If Master desires special equipment,’ she said, ‘it will be provided by Busebius.’ ‘There is more then enough here to tame you,’ I said.’”~pg13Rogue


This may hint at the fact that Goreans enjoyed bound women, but is that not what a slave is anyway? The physical presence of such items much like the collar impresses upon the slave her slavery the chains, rope, and whip impress upon her the helplessness of her situation. To take a part from another quote you used...

quote:

How beautiful, I thought, I must look to him, lying bound, totally vulnerable, helpless at his feet. How such a sight must stir the splendor of his manhood, to see the female, his, caught, helpless at his feet, his to do with in lust and pleasure, and joy, as he pleased, helpless to escape him, free for him to work his will upon her!


Perhaps the man relishes in the capture, roleplaying the untamed wench for the Master would not be outside the bounds of "normal" and "healthy" sexual proceedings. It doesn't mean he wants to chain her arms up, bind her breasts with ropes and whip her till she screams nilly willy.

quote:

“One of the utilities of a slave, of course, is to occasionally serve as the helpless object upon which the Master may vent his dissatisfaction, his frustration or anger. Too, of course, they may serve many other related purposes, such as the relief of tensions, to relax oneself and even to calm oneself for clear thought.”~pg134 Magicians


Speaks clearly that a slave may be beaten for no other reason than to vent anger. It includes nothing sexual or pleasurable in the venting. It states that one may if they wish abuse the slave to their liking to feel better. It goes on to state the slave may also be used in other ways for relaxations and calming. This could be from using her which she has no say in anyway to a massage and scrape with oils as was commonly done in the baths.

quote:

“How beautiful I must look to him, I thought. And I had sensed his incredible maleness, the animal maleness of him, so different from the thwarted, crippled sexuality so commended and tragically endemic among the males of Earth. For the first time in my life I felt I understood what might be the meaning of the expression ‘male,’ and as I lay before him, too, dimly, it frightening me, what might be the meaning of the expression ‘female.’ How beautiful, I thought, I must look to him, lying bound, totally vulnerable, helpless at his feet. How such a sight must stir the splendor of his manhood, to see the female, his, caught, helpless at his feet, his to do with in lust and pleasure, and joy, as he pleased, helpless to escape him, free for him to work his will upon her!”~pg27SlaveGirl


Men are naturally predators. We are hunter gatherers, and execel at such things. Our domination of things that are weaker physically, mentally, spiritually etc. are natural points for us. It simply put is, "what we do." The picture of a woman bound helpless before our feet is directly on point with those feelings.

If we hunt something we capture it, we bind it, we make it ours. Thus the caught and bound slave who is helplessly found looking up at a man towering over her and has no chance of escape is profoundly pleasing because of our natural instincts.

Does that make all Gorean men sadists? No, of course not. None of those quotes says anything about a man gaining sexual gratification at the expense of the slave.

I'm not saying it did not occur, just that I don't see the "sadism" in those points.


If people want to use violet wands in their sexual proclivities I say let them. If they too want to use fire or knives, let them. It isn't impacting you unless you're one of those involved.

Sometimes, a lot of times, I think we should worry more about what we want to improve in ourselves instead of worrying about who's flogging who in the bedroom.

I wish you all well,
Scott


_____________________________

When we see men of worth, we should think of equaling them; when we see men of a contrary character, we should turn inward and examine ourselves.

My Gorean Philosophy - Ever Expanding

(in reply to Sybilla)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 4:36:01 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sybilla

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
Sadism doesn't mean what you think it means.  Sadism (even the sexual kind) is deriving sexual pleasure from the infliction of suffering.  You need to read the quotes that you supplied again.  Most of the quotes that you provide refer to masculine sexual gratification at the (sometimes painful) subjugation of a female.  Men have a natural predatory instinct when is comes to women, and to make one helpless to them, and make her feel her helplessness, is a natural artifact of our evolution.  If this is news to you, I'm suprised, but sadism it ain't.

(Emphasis mine)

This confuses me.  Sexual gratification via infliction of pain is clearly the theme of 3 of the 4 quotes as well as a fair definition of sadism. I think whether pain is necessarily the only way to gain another's submission is debatable, but assuming it is, sexual gratification is still a component.  Even if the characteristic is a natural artifact, why isn't it sadism? 


In none of the quotes is the infliction of pain the object.  Subugation, or being subjugated is, and specifically, masculine domination and feminine submission.  The infliction of pain or cruelty isn't removed from that larger context so that it becomes the object of sexual desire for it's own sake.  I've owned a slave for 5 years.  I've owned slaves for over 20 years.  Am I sexually dominant with them?  Yep.  Do I bind them, gag them, hood them, or put them under the whip from time to time to discipline them and/or as an expresison of my authority over them? Yep.  Is it pleasing to me to do so?  Yep.  Do I go to play parties looking for folks who will let me hurt them because it gives me a woody to hurt people even if I have no actual authority over them and no sexual interest in them beyond hurting them?  Oooops.  Well, no.  No I don't.  The infliction of suffering for it's own sake does nothing for me outside the context of actual conquest, dominance, authority, or sexual interest in general.  In the Gor books, you will find the same.  You'll find a lot of B&D, and D&S, but nerry any S&M.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
You're appealing to an irrelevant authority.  Somebody's current definition of "sadism" might include any act of sexual dominance.


I can understand your objection to the DSM as a reference if it's because it is a "handbook" of anti-social aberration.  But due to the "skewed" psychological profile of Norman's female population (comparatively speaking) what would be considered anti-social behaviour on Earth would not be considered so on Gor.  I think if one bears this idea in mind the DSM could still be a useful tool descriptive-wise.  

Or is this not your meaning?


It wasn't my meaning.  The definiition that it contains (in 2009) isn't relevant to this discussion.  Obviously whomever wrote the current definition as provided can't think of any reason one adult might administer corporal punishment to another adult absent sadistic motivation.  I am not suprised by that, given that that community tends to be of the cardigan wearing ilk.  I think that much of what they describe as sadism can and does exist outside any sadistic intent whatsoever.  If they saw me beat my slave the other day because she spent money when she wasn't supposed to, I'm sure they'd see it as sadism.  I beg to differ.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Sybilla)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 5:35:29 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 21904
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Yes Virginia, some Goreans are sad from time to time.  Not at all clinically depressed, mind you.  But the ism of everything is an ism in and of itself.  I suppose if you want to get philisophical and religious about it....

Ever notice that you can take the flat of your hand and rather pound the shit out of a female cats behind?  Their head goes down and and their ass goes up and they hang on for dear life, and are very anxious that you continue if you have to stop and rest.   Ever notice that in many species the female is on the bottom (supine or doggie) and the male will bite the neck to freeze the female in position?

What does that have to do with religion...not much unless you consider, "In the sweat of thy brow, shalt thou eat bread, and woman, your pain will be greatly increased in childbearing...."

Does that make God a sadist?  Men will take a backache and cuts and bruises in stride, but if you wanna whip somebody, well; that's women's work.......

Fill in the various and sundry blanks and spaces with what you will........

Jarl DeSade    

_____________________________

'There is no center for the promulgation and maintenance of kinky values, no pope of rope, or magistrate extraordinaire of sadistic affairs.' Jack Rinella

THE ICECREAM CONE NEXT TO YOUR NAME

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/23/2009 10:43:13 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1232
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		{Fast Reply}

Tal and greetings all....

Angel is the first person in this thread to get what I believe Norman was driving at when he talked about sadism in the oft quoted passage. Norman has a habit for good or bad of saying something one place but giving examples of it in other places. Until you start making the connections you only get partial understanding.

In my understanding, the disease that afflicts the men of Earth as Goreans see it is that they feel they have no power and must show their power by inflicting fear and pain on people they feel are lesser than they are. This is the sadism he spoke of rather than specifically the DSM or BDSM definitions of sadism. It is the person who "takes it out" on others because they feel powerless that does not occur much on Gor. This is because men are not restrained from being men by society. Yes, the nature of humans is to dominate the lesser person but domination and cruelty or abuse are two different things. A man who shows his dominance through leadership is not cruel or abusive. The weak man has no or little natural dominance so tries to show or emulate it by dominating someone else through physical or other force rather than by who and what they naturally are.

The Goreans in the books who took pleasure in the suffering of others were all weak men who through money, guile, lies or other "less than honorable" means gained or tried to have power over others. Those men all come to bad ends showing what Norman thought of such people. They hurt others because it gave them pleasure in that they felt dominant. They were the sadists of which the quote referred. Note that Norman said seldom, not did not exist.

Those men who proved themselves dominant over another though skill and in contests were respected. Someone on Gor gained respect and status (dominance) over others through their abilities. This is the natural order in operation as Norman described it in the books.

Be well all.....

Malkinius


_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/24/2009 5:25:47 AM   
Mitzie


Posts: 680
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Malkinius

I agree with you re angels post she did nail it on the head but then I also think your post was great as well.

I look forward to seeing more replies from those who live the lifestyle.

well wishes


Mitzie

_____________________________

"The free should not be slave, and the slave should not be free," he said. "I do not understand," she said. "Just as it is wrong for the properly free to be enslaved," he said, "so, too, it is wrong for the properly enslaved to be free."PoG



(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/24/2009 8:26:16 AM   
SimonofTabor


Posts: 122
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		I'm just going to throw an extra quotation into the debate, which may or may not help. It's been mentioned that the quote about sadism was written a long time ago. So, how about a more recent quote (from 2007):

"Sadism on Gor is either nonexistent, or very rare. That is because there are, on the whole, few border crossings between the countries of Yin and Yang, so to speak. Complementarities tend to be respected. Where nature is revered, understood, and attended to, where differences are recognized and welcomed, even celebrated, humans, statistically, are happy, contented, and fulfilled. Accordingly, in such a world, there is little motivation for intersexual cruelty, envy, resentment, hatred, jealousy, and such. As Gor is a natural world, balances are maintained. On Gor, humans flourish. This is not the case, statistically, with at least one world I can think of. Perhaps you can think of such a world, as well."

- John Norman, 2007, in a letter available at http://gorchronicles.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=35

Simon

(in reply to Mitzie)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Sadism in Gor - 6/24/2009 9:38:13 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		G'morning,

I posted the question in the hopes of better illustrating the differences between what a Gorean considers 'sadistic' & what a typical person of western culture might consider 'sadistic'.

I offered definitions in use today by the typical person of western culture, pointed out that said definitions have changed since Norman first wrote the initial passage & shared quotes that a typical person might feel matched that current definition.

This does NOT mean that I believe Goreans are all 'sadists'.

The point I was nudging forward is that definitions change, & connotations are fluid & influenced by common belief, & the term itself may be the real issue. What does the word MEAN? What does it mean to a Gorean? What did it mean to the author? What does it mean to someone who has NOT read the series? Do the inevitable differences of meaning to the parties I've just mentioned alter the 'summary judgment' of those so concerned with what others call themselves? 

-- "Gorean and Sadist" -- these are just empty words, devoid of meaning, without a clear understanding of not only the person's actions, but also their motivations -- their imperative.

If I do not know what Leonidas considers "sadistic", AND I do not know about Gor, AND I do not know about the 'order of nature' aspect of human interactions, then what value is there in my judgment of him as a "sadist"?

In my opinion, I could call it what it is -- natural sexual dominance -- all the time & leave those who don't have the knowledge to grasp what that entails wallowing in their own ignorance. I also could use a term - 'sadistic' - they might better grasp, a term they might better recognize, a term that might pique their curiousity, cause them to search out more knowledge, & maybe....just maybe....they will act to end their ignorance.

In time, when they come back with a well-armed intellect & consciousness, & ask...."Do you really think Goreans are sadists?" I can laugh & say, "Of course not! But saying so with none of the typical, expected shame, guilt, trembling self-loathing & other anti-social symptoms was dissonant enough to prompt you to discover more. You now see the difference yourself, don't you?"

Honestly....being called a 'sadist' by strangers hardly bothers me any more than it bothers me to be called a 'cold-hearted bitch' by a stranger. Those who know me, know my values, know my imperatives....they know better. Those who do not know me....well, they really don't matter to me.

IWYW

~K

< Message edited by Kimveri -- 6/24/2009 9:39:44 AM >

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to SimonofTabor)
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