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RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 5:13:32 PM

Aswad

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I don't know...
... in what way is being an Afghani moslem pervasive?
... in what way is being British nobility pervasive?
... in what way is being an ex-con pervasive?

Obviously, we take something with us from life experiences and core beliefs, even when we change. But the remnants can be so subtle and well integrated that it is only by contrast that we can perceive these differences for ourselves. We take a couple of things with us at all times: who we are, and what we've experienced (arguably two somewhat similar things).

Health,
al-Aswad.

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It is only hubris if I fail.
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RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 7:22:17 PM

lovingpet

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Am I understanding that it is not really possible to know what life experience and belief structures will follow a person until they have dissociated from it? If that is so, then I am wondering if a Gorean is going to pick up on those subtlties that you mentioned and recognize the person's background. If I were to try to explain how I was permanently affected by a belief structure, I could do it. It would not be exaughstive and I would suspect that others would be able to identify areas I was unaware of especially if they are currently of those beliefs. I would also be able to openly explain why those pieces were still a part of me based on both my past and current tenants. Once again, it may be difficult and many questions would be asked in the pursuit of clarification, but I would do my best to discuss it as openly as possible.

I am remaining as open and teachable as possible here. I am doing all the heavy work that has been suggested. It won't happen overnight. I have a lot of background to assist me as I have good familiarity with many of the philosophical schools Norman drew upon. Maybe we can work with that. I don't know what else I can offer here that makes me someone that can grasp what you may have to say. I am doing what I can.

lovingpet

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RE: Remnants - 7/1/2009 12:10:23 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
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Hello, lovingpet,

Take a moment & think about what you're asking, who you're asking & where you're asking. You're on a "Gorean Lifestyle" forum, asking mostly Goreans what things stick with someone who leaves Gor.

Since most here have not walked away from a Gorean life, but are actually striving to achieve & maintain that, it's really just supposition on our parts.

Also, each person views the principles, codes & morality differently, through the lenses of their own unique experiences. This makes the various truths & tenets discovered uniquely personal. This seems to me to suggest, logically, that a person who walks away from Gorean philosophy/morality would keep only those traits, codes or tenets that are uniquely valuable to them...personally.

IOW, while you may be able to summarize what has stuck with you after you've walked away from one particular belief system, that does not mean EVERYone who walks away from that same belief system will have the same things stick with them.

I'm actually not sure what you're ultimate goal is here. Do you need reassurance that there's nothing dangerous about this stranger ...because he used to call himself "Gorean"? WE can't give you a guarantee. Are you asking for us, strangers to you, to tell you what to do? Most here will not likely tell you how to live....

Here's my best advice: RTFB, trust your gut instincts, take a few chances, make your choices, pay the costs & live your life.

Good luck to you,

~Kimveri

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"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Remnants - 7/1/2009 2:08:21 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

Am I understanding that it is not really possible to know what life experience and belief structures will follow a person until they have dissociated from it?

If so, then you do not understand.

I do not need to become American to know what it means to be Norwegian. I can have a look at Americans, visit their country, interact with their culture, and then contrast this with what I already know. In that way, I will know more about what seperates one from the other. What we know all too well, we don't realize, as we take it for granted. Only when we encounter that which is different, do we have a yardstick by which to measure what we knew. Only then do we have the means to know what seperates one thing from another. Without suffering, we cannot fully appreciate what joy is. Without darkness, we cannot know light.

Which is not to say that these things necessarily cease to be real without the contrast, just that we have no means to know them, because to know a thing is to differentiate this from that. Wear a blindfold for a day, then take it off, and you will know far more about seeing than you ever thought there was to know about it.

quote:

If that is so, then I am wondering if a Gorean is going to pick up on those subtlties that you mentioned and recognize the person's background.

I would say I am intentionally blind to whether someone knows anything about being Gorean.

I am instead aware- I would like to believe "keenly aware"- of whether they are the kind of person I can relate to, whether they are the kind of person whose word I would trust, and so forth. Whether I respect someone is not contingent on their background, but rather on the content of their character, and the manner in which they demonstrate that character. I know people who identify themselves as Gorean that would never earn my respect, and I know people who don't identify as anything in particular who have nonetheless earned a great deal of respect.

quote:

If I were to try to explain how I was permanently affected by a belief structure, I could do it.

You could touch on it, sure. But as you say:

quote:

It would not be exaughstive and I would suspect that others would be able to identify areas I was unaware of especially if they are currently of those beliefs.

And I would reverse the latter: they'd be especially able to identify those areas if they were of a different belief.

quote:

I am remaining as open and teachable as possible here.

Please read Paul Graham's essay "What You Can't Say", specifically the parts dealing with openness. Google will find it as the first hit if you search. The rest of the essay is brilliant, too, and well worth a read. It nicely complements scientific findings about the paradoxical nature of self-awareness.

quote:

I am doing what I can.

That's all I ask.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

I have taken up arms against justice.
— Arthur Rimbaud, A Season in Hell

It is only hubris if I fail.
— Cæsar, Rome

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RE: Remnants - 7/2/2009 11:31:29 AM

Totalmaster4you

Posts: 1359
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Greetings loving pet,

From your various replies I do not have an idea of how much you have discussed this with the gentleman in question. He is in the best position to explain what aspects of being "Gorean" he disliked sufficiently to stop refering to himself as "Gorean". Once that is established it should be considerably easier to learn about the qualities and philosophies he has retained. From there you could research through the archives, if you're sufficiently interested, any specific topics. To learn more fundementally about being Gorean/living Gorean I'd recomend reading the books.

I wish you well,
T

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