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Remnants - 6/27/2009 7:46:40 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online 		I am a bit hesitant to post here as I have no idea how people wish to be addressed and feel a little over my head protocolwise, but hopefully I am a familiar enough poster from the other boards for everyone to understand that I mean no disrespect or do not wish to honor appropriate practices.  Oddly enough, it was a post meant to cause trouble on the general board that got me to take a bit of a leap and post here.

My question centers around those who leave Gorean lifestyle for whatever reason.  In this specific instance I am thinking of a particular Master, but I imagine this same thing could happen in submissive/slave practices as well.  He readily admits that he still holds to a lot of both the philosophy and protocols of Gorean tradition.  He says sometime it is a purposeful thing, having found these pieces of value and functional within his relationships, and other times he is functioning from such tenants and is scarcely aware of it because it became such a basic part of him and his practices.

My question is, what parts of Gorean philosophy, tradition, and/or protocol tends to follow people even after leaving the full lifestyle behind?  How do they translate in relationships outside a Gorean framework?  What can a partner expect in terms of carryover or consequences (good, bad, or indifferent) from the other party having been Gorean at one time?

I greatly appreciate help with this and look forward to what I can only expect will be insightful responses.  My thanks in advance!

lovingpet
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Remnants - 6/27/2009 9:08:11 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Howdy, lovingpet,

I think there are a few things studying Gor can reveal in ourselves that cannot be denied, regardless of how one chooses to live after that discovery.

* The value of honesty, especially with onself.

* The joyful growth found in self-study & self-discovery.

* A sense of peace with what many still view as the harshness of nature.

* The liberating sensation of accepting our innate & natural predispositions.

* The responsibility & accountability that accompanies power, influence & authority.

* The beauty of natural femininity & masculinity, freed of shame.

These things can hardly be a negative influence on any relationship, in my opinion.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri


_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Remnants - 6/27/2009 9:21:50 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 126
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		greetings pet,

ok, this is a tough question, with a number of easy answers, none of which really provides a *real* answer to your question.

In my estimation, being Gorean is about being free, not just *free-er* but... free.  100%, irrevocably, uncompromisingly free. There is no "lifestyle" to accept or abandon, individual Goreans define the "lifestyle" by what they do. Free people do as they will, and wait for the swords of others to set their limits.(and yeah, that is paraphrased from the books)  Your suggestion that someone could *be Gorean* and therefore by virtue of their *freedom* define what the "Gorean lifestyle" is... and then... leave it, for *whatever reason*....has red flags the size of football fields popping up in my mind...

*I* don't think that there are *any* parts of the Gorean philosophy that are disposable, and your question about "what parts can be left behind and what can carry forward" quite frankly... makes me wonder what ration of bullshit you are willing to have for lunch.

Yanno, I have it on good authority, that I have an enormous penis!!!

Have a nice day
Unbuilder


_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Remnants - 6/28/2009 5:41:14 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online 		Thank you Kimveri and I think I do see a great number of those things in him.  I am interested how they will serve him in a non-Gorean relationship.  On the one hand I know some of what people will mention here.  To another, I am not as familiar with the texts and subsequent belief system as someone who lives it.

This leads me to Unbuilder's post.  I appreciate your answer and position on the matter.  I, however, do not have enough understanding to know what I am asking.  It is a very innocent, perhaps even naive, question.  Could you help me out with a brief synopsis of Gorean philosophy?  I read the FAQ's thread, but perhaps just a refresher or something a bit more simply put can help.  I realize a short lecture does not do it justice, but could at least give me a jumping off point.  I am not accustomed to having things picked apart quite this much and hopefully my question wasn't offensive.  Let me see if I can clarify.  He left the everyday practice behind, but when speaking with him or experiencing how he works with a submissive partner, there are echos of Gorean beliefs and traditions.  I can't explain it much better than that.  I pick up on a piece here and a piece there that I recognize.  I am just interested in what I might be missing that is clearly of Gorean influence.  I will try to answer any specific questions, but like I said, the peeks I get are kind of mists and shadows to me since I have very little background.

Let me be clear, he does this with no real awareness it is happening.  I have asked him about things a few times when he has said or done something that stirs this particular curiosity.  We just stop and reflect on it and more often than not, he sees what I see.  I don't have issue with it nor have I seen it lead to a negative place.  I am curious though how it affect a collared relationship he would have with a submissive and if there are certain things that she would need to more than likely be able to handle in order for the relationship to remain a positive thing for both.  I hope that helps.

lovingpet

(in reply to Unbuilder)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Remnants - 6/29/2009 7:05:15 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 126
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		greetings pet,

I think we're at an impasse here.  Like a great many others, you are asking for a "brief synopsis", of something that I think is all pervasive.  I have never seen a "brief synopsis" that I would ascribe to.. and that would offer you any help with your questions. I once heard a man say that "Goreans live the lives they're given", a statement that I thought was wonderfully accurate, but that ain't going to answer your questions, unless you take the time to "read the fuckin books".

Perhaps someday, someone will come up with a "brief synopsis" that I feel is accurate, but it won't be me... cause I ain't nearly clever enough.

Be well
Unbuilder


_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 3:49:54 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hello lovingpet,

quote:

Guess what I did guys??????   I had a question about Gorean stuff, so I did this really insane and radical thing and posted the question in the Gorean Lifestyles forum!!!!!!  I know!!!!!!  How stupid could I possibly be?????  LOL

lovingpet


I don't know...how stupid could you possibly be?    You asked a question, you received well thought out answers.  AND then you turn around and make this post in another Collar Me group, makes me wonder if you asked the question HERE as a dare, or possibly using it to brag.  Or did you think you would get "flamed"?  So you could go running back to where ever crying about those bad mean Goreans.

While your question may have appeared to be sincere, I believe by the contents of the above post, your intent was not.  

Be well,

Elizabeth Anne

< Message edited by ElizabethAnne -- 6/30/2009 4:26:48 AM >

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 4:01:30 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 414
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline 		Never mind... I just read Mistress Elizabeth's post...

< Message edited by ishyB -- 6/30/2009 4:09:43 AM >

_____________________________

Immature love says: "I love you because I need you."
Mature love says: "I need you because I love you."
~ Erich Fromm

What does your conscience say?
— "You shall become the person you are."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 4:52:03 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1059
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		dear loving pet...

I am not Gorean but I see those traits that drew me to the man I married that reflect my belief systems...

Indepedent of thought and action... He does what he thinks and feels are the correct .... even if it means those who he calls friend and those he calls family dont agree with thim

Loyalty ... He will do anything for those he calls friend and family...

Honesty... dont ask him a question if you dont want the answer

Patriotism... He loves his country and served it with pride...and says so

A belief system ... in that he has a personal philosophy that is well thought out and that he practices... I dont think that leaves you when you no longer say your Gorean.

Liz.. I dont think she ment to upset anyone I just think she has been inopportune in her choice of words... Ive read alot of her posts and never foundher to be truly malicious... just my two cents.

MsB.

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 4:54:31 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 6595
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hiya Liz,

I read it on that other topic as if she was showing how stupid those other two trolls, and a couple of others, for not posting their questions here. A few of them said that posting questions here would not only bring silence. It seemed more like her saying in a sarcastic way to them, that she had posted like the others that say they have questions, should have done.

I was actually pleasantly surprised by that other topic, because so many that are not Gorean, or may even disagree with being Gorean, jumped the two trolls for how they were acting and approaching their supposed questions.

Anyway, just my take on it.

Live well and take care,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Hello lovingpet,

quote:

Guess what I did guys??????   I had a question about Gorean stuff, so I did this really insane and radical thing and posted the question in the Gorean Lifestyles forum!!!!!!  I know!!!!!!  How stupid could I possibly be?????  LOL

lovingpet


I don't know...how stupid could you possibly be?    You asked a question, you received well thought out answers.  AND then you turn around and make this post in another Collar Me group, makes me wonder if you asked the question HERE as a dare, or possibly using it to brag.  Or did you think you would get "flamed"?  So you could go running back to where ever crying about those bad mean Goreans.

While your question may have appeared to be sincere, I believe by the contents of the above post, your intent was not.  

Be well,

Elizabeth Anne


_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 5:07:16 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Hello lovingpet,

quote:

Guess what I did guys??????   I had a question about Gorean stuff, so I did this really insane and radical thing and posted the question in the Gorean Lifestyles forum!!!!!!  I know!!!!!!  How stupid could I possibly be?????  LOL

lovingpet


I don't know...how stupid could you possibly be?    You asked a question, you received well thought out answers.  AND then you turn around and make this post in another Collar Me group, makes me wonder if you asked the question HERE as a dare, or possibly using it to brag.  Or did you think you would get "flamed"?  So you could go running back to where ever crying about those bad mean Goreans.

While your question may have appeared to be sincere, I believe by the contents of the above post, your intent was not.  

Be well,

Elizabeth Anne


My apologies if that is what you took from that particular statement in the other forum.  I have had this question circling for quite some time and recent events have made it very much time to start asking some questions.  My issue with that entire thread, and the reason I mostly avoided it, was that the OP was intentionally evasive of the very people that would best answer their questions.  They did not want answers and were not seeking with right motives.  I am.

This is a very real and important matter for me and I would appreciate the help I may receive here.

lovingpet

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 5:27:43 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online 		First of all, I appreciate the support!  I very rarely post anything but a sincere response, but occassionally a sincere response just isn't warranted or will not communicate what I require.  I honestly meant no harm in posting that response or in posting a question here.

Now as for this person, I find him to be very much of a rugged individual, even if it means he spends a great portion of time alone.  He is not going to change, be waived in his belieds or goals for anyone.  I have seen him adjust his view on occassion, but this came through deliberation and a great deal of spirited debate.

I have never known him to be anything but honest, even when I was very much hoping he was not serious.  It allows him to filter people very quickly.  Few will stick with him and he values those that do.  What people who know him well enough tend to say is that he is good.  It is sometimes a difficult pill for strangers to swallow, however, because he stands in counter to a great many "good" belief structures and is thoroughly unashamed of it.

I appreciate your input and would say these thing fit him quite well.  It is those things within the belief structure that I wonder about because my guess is they will underpin his relationships whether or not he claims to be Gorean or not. 

lovingpet

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 5:27:53 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hello lovingpet,

By posting what you did in the other thread (the one I quoted), do you see how it seemed?   And I believe I agreed, your initial question here DID appear sincere, yet, when I read that one, a red flag flew up.  

IF this is something that is important to you, you can do a lot of research, including reading the books, the answers are there, and I think deep down you most likely know the answer, and just want confirmation of what you already believe.   Only you in the end can answer.   Honestly that's all any of us can do when we have questions, search for an answer, and then determine if that is right...for each of us.

Be well,

Elizabeth Anne

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 5:32:53 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hey there Orion,

You may be right, I hope you in fact you are right.   Her post on that thread just really rubbed me the wrong way.   And I may have over reacted, I know shocking.  It's has just been such a common occurence, I tend to think the worst.

Thanks for the reminder, to not to jump to conclusions so quickly.

Take care,

Liz


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 5:42:55 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online 		Thank you for the support also, and that was exactly what I was trying to state in a way that would break the obvious tension that had been building in the thread.  I stayed out of it otherwise.  I know my limits and knew I would not be able to stomach the debate and comparison of belief systems that would ensue as well.  I like to stay civil as much as I can.

I have been reading other threads here and paying attention, in particular to the new one on Gorean philosophy.  I know short and sweet is difficult and probably doesn't do things justice and so this more expansive discussion has been helpful.  I don't think, however, that extremely detailed information is needed to answer my particular question.  I am more than willing to do the hard work and research to understand better.  I have done so with everything else in life I wanted to know.  There is the slight matter of this taking a great deal of time.  It is not time I am unwilling to invest, but rather time I simply do not have the luxury of in this particular matter.

I am reading and learning all I can.  I am very thankful for those that are willing to share what they are able, not just here on my thread, but on others as well.  I just find it wise to understand the potentials involved if a girl is to become slave to a man who spent many years holding to Gorean beliefs and still treasuring many of them.

Thanks to all once again!

lovingpet


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 5:48:53 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Hello lovingpet,

By posting what you did in the other thread (the one I quoted), do you see how it seemed?   And I believe I agreed, your initial question here DID appear sincere, yet, when I read that one, a red flag flew up.  

IF this is something that is important to you, you can do a lot of research, including reading the books, the answers are there, and I think deep down you most likely know the answer, and just want confirmation of what you already believe.   Only you in the end can answer.   Honestly that's all any of us can do when we have questions, search for an answer, and then determine if that is right...for each of us.

Be well,

Elizabeth Anne


I think I can appreciate how it appeared from your perspective.  It was such regretable timing to say the very least!  In all honesty, those who opened the invitation to come here and ask our questions was the one good thing that came from that thread because I had literally been terrified to even attempt this.

This forum is but one avenue I am persuing to answer my questions.  I plan to read the books and I am researching other media in an attempt to understand better.  In some ways, though, I don't think anything can compare to the insights of those that live it.  Everything else is static and I am bringing to it my own preconceptions and bias.  I think this part of my search allows for some clarity and for me to see things I either don't want to see or can't see on my own.

lovingpet

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 8:19:01 AM   
peachgirl


Posts: 134
Joined: 6/25/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Howdy, lovingpet,

I think there are a few things studying Gor can reveal in ourselves that cannot be denied, regardless of how one chooses to live after that discovery.

* The value of honesty, especially with onself.

* The joyful growth found in self-study & self-discovery.

* A sense of peace with what many still view as the harshness of nature.

* The liberating sensation of accepting our innate & natural predispositions.

* The responsibility & accountability that accompanies power, influence & authority.

* The beauty of natural femininity & masculinity, freed of shame.

These things can hardly be a negative influence on any relationship, in my opinion.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri



hello Kimveri,
upon reading this from you, it struck me that it is also a wonderful set of lessons to impart upon UMs.  thank you.
best,
peachgirl

_____________________________

the goofball fka lighthearted

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 8:40:05 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 8547
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

My question is, what parts of Gorean philosophy, tradition, and/or protocol tends to follow people even after leaving the full lifestyle behind?  How do they translate in relationships outside a Gorean framework?  What can a partner expect in terms of carryover or consequences (good, bad, or indifferent) from the other party having been Gorean at one time?


lp,

If he has time and inclination, you might ask IronBear about this. He once long identified as Gorean, and has now long identified as Victorian. He remains, however, a man who long ago earned my respect, and he's able to address questions and issues in a calm, considered, non-emotional non-judgmental manner.

I wish you well.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to lovingpet)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 9:30:30 AM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online 		Thank you for for the suggestion and I will be in touch with him.  I think IB is an example of what I am seeing with this particular master.  He chose a different path thatn IB did, but it is in that leaving, but still having his past experiences shining through and influencing how he does things that I am curious about.  Curious is an understatement, however.

lovingpet

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 2:43:43 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6082
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Unbuilder,

I shall have to attempt to be clever, then, in making a pass at a brief synopsis...

"Gorean" is the part of Gor that stays with you after leaving the lifestyle.

The rest is just so much window dressing, as many have found.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

I have taken up arms against justice.
— Arthur Rimbaud, A Season in Hell

It is only hubris if I fail.
— Cæsar, Rome


(in reply to Unbuilder)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Remnants - 6/30/2009 3:29:32 PM   
lovingpet


Posts: 3738
Joined: 6/19/2005
Status: online 		Unbuilder responded that being Gorean is all pervasive.  I understand that quite well, given who I am talking about.  I am still asking in what ways is it all pervasive?  Some things I am able to witness for myself even with my limited knowlege base, which is expanding quite quickly thanks to the help of some here, but I am sure there are things I am not aware of.  This board strikes me as filled with very articulate individuals, so I hope I am not asking too much for some exposition upon what is all pervasive in this regard.  Thanks you for your assistance.

lovingpet

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 20
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