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Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 3:22:36 AM   
NorthernGent


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From another thread where people were asked to post in this section regarding Gorean philosophy. Here's my response to the link to Luther who penned his view of Gor.

The author is keen to stress that Gor isn't a one size fits all. Fair enough.

The author is keen to stress that Gor is not akin to Fascism. Fair enough.

The author is keen to stress that no two people are the same and hold differeing talents and skills. I'd say this is self-evident when you look around any room full of people.

The author stresses that equality laws are designed to protect the inferior - there's a spot of Nietzsche in this thought process. Equality laws however (certainly in England) are not designed to make everyone equal; they are designed to ensure that people get a fair crack of the whip and have the foundations in place from which to succeed or fail from a level playing field. The difference isn't even subtle.

"They hold that it is the desire of the inferiors to be placed on the same level as their superiors"
 
Or conversely Gorean philosophy is the desire of equals to fulfill their ambitions of self-proclaimed superiority.

Two questions remain unanswered for me:

1) What makes one inferior or superior according to Gorean philosophy - it is a stretch to equate differing skills and talents to inferiority and superiority. It would be useful were someone to fill in the missing link. From my point of view these are grand ideas in the same vein as Communism; the idea may be different but they are underpinned by the same common denominator: an appeal to abstract notions (which can never be proven) at the expense of the experience of human behaviour.

2) It would be useful too were someone to describe what exactly is the 'natural order' (it's not clear from the author in the link).


Quite clearly based on the link provided I'm sceptical with regard to this perceived superiority and inferiority so I'm only really here to put a point of view forward and hear the opposing point of view - the chance of agreement is fairly remote so anyone who seeks agreement shouldn't really approach this whereas anyone who likes a reasoned disagreement may find this interesting.

Edited to add: I imagine Orion will be keen to approach this one based on his request to post such views in this section.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 6/28/2009 3:27:18 AM >


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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 7:49:46 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Sorry NG, I had a pretty lengthy reply but I either lost connection for a moment or something else that caused it to be "eaten". Will use MS Word next time, which will likely be later this evening, and try to reconstruct it. You ask some good questions, and even though I have only read through the series once, will try to answer as best as I see it. Per usual this may spur an entire discussion with other Gorean adding to it. It may not though, as some of the more educated posters are not posting lately. There are still a few though, and I am sure we can generate enough "fat to chew on" (a local coloquelism)

Live well,
Orion

P.S. Off to mow the lawn, repair the deck and do other things that need doing.

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 10:30:37 AM   
Trevelyan


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It would be helpful if you could provide a link to the thread you refer to, and/or the link to the Luther piece that you mention.


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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 12:17:32 PM   
Apocalypso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

It would be helpful if you could provide a link to the thread you refer to, and/or the link to the Luther piece that you mention.

The thread in question can be found here, although be advised that it reeks of Eau d' Troll. 

The Luther piece under discussion is this one

As one of the people involved in the 'third camp' of that thread, I'll return to this when I have time to do it with the depth this topic deserves.


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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 1:15:22 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

P.S. Off to mow the lawn, repair the deck and do other things that need doing.



Whenever you're ready Orion.....

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 2:02:19 PM   
Trevelyan


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NorthernGent

Most of your questions deal with something Norman calls "the Gorean Morality."

Here is the quote from the books which most succinctly addresses the Gorean Morality:

quote:

The morality of Earth, from the Gorean point of view, is a
morality which would be viewed as more appropriate to slaves
than free men. It would be seen in terms of the envy and
resentment of inferiors for their superiors. It lays great stress
on equalities and being humble and being pleasant and
avoiding friction and being ingratiating and small. It is a
morality in the best interest of slaves, who would be only too
eager to be regarded as the equals of others. We are all the
same. That is the hope of slaves; that is what it is in their
interest to convince others of. The Gorean morality on the
other hand is more one of inequalities, based on the
assumption that individuals are not the same, but quite
different in many ways. It might be said to be, though this is
oversimple, a morality of masters. Guilt is almost unknown in
Gorean morality, though shame and anger are not. Many
Earth moralities encourage resignation and accommodation;
Gorean morality is bent more toward conquest and defiance;
many Earth moralities encourage tenderness, pity and
gentleness, sweetness; Gorean morality encourages honor,
courage, hardness and strength. To Gorean morality many
Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth
moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?"
I have sometimes thought that the Goreans might do well
to learn something of tenderness, and, perhaps, that those of
Earth might do well to learn something of hardness. But I do
Marauders of Gor [Gor Series Book 9]
by John Norman
18
not know how to live. I have sought the answers, but I have
not found them. The morality of slaves says, "You are equal
to me; we are both the same"; the morality of masters says,
"We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to
me; then we will be the same."
The morality of slaves
reduces all to bondage; the morality of masters encourages
all to attain, if they can, the heights of freedom. I know of no
prouder, more self-reliant, more magnificent creature than
the free Gorean, male or female; they are often touchy, and
viciously tempered, but they are seldom petty or small;
moreover they do not hate and fear their bodies or their
instincts; when they restrain themselves it is a victory over
titanic forces; not the consequence of a slow metabolism; but
sometimes they do not restrain themselves; they do not
assume that their instincts and blood are enemies and spies,
saboteurs, in the house of themselves; they know them and
welcome them as part of their persons; they are as little
suspicious of them as the cat of its cruelty, or the lion of its
hunger; their desire for vengeance, their will to speak out and
defend themselves, their lust, they regard as intrinsically and
gloriously a portion of themselves as their hearing or their
thinking. Many Earth moralities make people little; the object
of Gorean morality, for all its faults, is to make people free
and great. These objectives are quite different it is clear to
see. Accordingly, one would expect that the implementing
moralities would, also, be considerably different.


Regarding your specific questions:

1) What makes one inferior or superior according to Gorean philosophy ?

Demonstration. A person is not equal because they say they are, or because they are male or female or whatever. They are equal because they demonstrate that they are.

Here are some characteristics of a free Gorean:
- They are sovereign in their personal territory
- They identify with, love and are allegiant to their community
- They identify with and take pride in the work that they do; and perform that work ethically and excellently.
- They subscribe to a particular notion of right and wrong:
* they assume that people are not equal, not the same, but quite different in many ways.
* they are bent toward conquest and defiance
* they strive to exhibit honor, courage, hardness and strength
* they agree with the statement "We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to me; then we will be the same."
* they also agree with the statement "Be strong, and do as you will. The swords of others will set your limits."

If a Gorean in the books demonstrated these characteristics, other free Goreans would consider him to be an "equal" - a free Gorean.

If he (or she) did not demonstrate these characteristics, other free Goreans would consider him to be "inferior" - either an outlaw or a slave.

2) It would be useful too were someone to describe what exactly is the 'natural order' (it's not clear from the author in the link).

Good question! The phrase 'natural order' does not occur once in any of the 27 Gor novels. I think that MarcusofAr (a "Gorean" here on Earth) coined the phrase. He had a specific meaning for it, but the "Telephone Game" nature of Gorean websites and chat rooms have caused it to mean anything or nothing.

I think Luther is using it to mean the general idea of living in accordance with the truth of how humans actually are, instead of in accordance with politically correct fictions of how some people think they should be; or perhaps he is using it to mean the same thing Norman does when he refers to "the order of nature" (which I discussed in the thread you moved your post from.)

Trevelyan

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 2:21:08 PM   
NorthernGent


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Allow me to summarise and correct me where wrong:

1) People are different in many ways and this difference separates the inferior from the superior.

2) Superiority and inferiority are measured through the characteristics you display: honour/conquest/defiance versus tenderness and pity.

3) The 'natural order' is determined by the stated categories dictated by the stated characteristics.

Just making sure I understand this before replying.

Is it a fair summary of the basic tenets of 'natural order' and superiority/inferiority?

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 2:41:06 PM   
Trevelyan


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NorthernGent,

My comments about your points:

1) particularly demonstration, or not, of the characteristics I listed.

2) I think the full list I gave, not just honour/conquest/defiance versus tenderness and pity, characterize a free Gorean, and therefore what Norman feels is a superior person.

3) As I mentioned, Norman never uses the phrase "natural order" so I do not know what you mean by it. If you mean that living in accordance with the values/characteristics I listed would be living in accord with what Norman feels are the biological truths of human nature and in his opinion would be more likely to lead to health, happiness and fulfillment, then yes, I agree.

I should also point out that my brief comments reflect a condensation of what I think are the key points of the 27 books. I have not discussed many key ideas in the interest of brevity. For example, Norman/Goreans feel a woman can be happy, healthy and fulfilled as a slave, due to the power of the "order of nature", even though as a slave she would not demonstrate most of the characteristics of a free Gorean.

Trevelyan

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 2:44:46 PM   
BitaTruble


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I am using Sirs notebook, and cannot find some of the proper keys to encapture quoting,

"1) What makes one inferior or superior according to Gorean philosophy - it is a stretch to equate differing skills and talents to inferiority and superiority. It would be useful were someone to fill in the missing link."

Missing link .. if you are superior to the self you were yesterday, then you have progressed. If you are inferior to the self you will be tomorow, then you are progressive. It is not a comparative issue of man vs man. It is a comparative issue of man vs self, the self of past, present and future.

"2) It would be useful too were someone to describe what exactly is the 'natural order' (it's not clear from the author in the link)."

My favorite way to explain natural order .. how does one consume an apple? First, plant the seed,, allow it to germinate and grow into the tree with its proper care (water, sunlight, good soil, etc.), it will bear the fruit, only then one can eat the apple. Without first planting the seed, no consumption can take place ... such is the natural order of things.

As all things follow, all things must first begin .. so, too, with men and women. To be a slave today, I first was born, grew to girlhood, grew to womanhood and from there sought the study of myself to find my own true nature ... such is also the natural order of things. The natual order, find that which you were meant to be, then live that way.. but first find that which you were meant to be. For some that means living naturally as a follower of Gorean philosophy, for others it is other things ,, there is only right and wrong as it pertains to the natural order of self and how one chooses to live .. as their natural, authentic self or as some lessor or inferior, if you will, facsimile. I do not strive to be superior to slave X or Free man Q .. I strive to be superior to the Celeste I was yesterday which, if I live well and in accordance with my nature, will be less than the Celeste of tomorrow.

It is late, I can barely read on this tiny box, so, hopefully, this makes sense.





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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 2:50:45 PM   
sweetgirlserves


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

The morality of slaves says, "You are equal
to me; we are both the same"; the morality of masters says,
"We are not equal; we are not the same; become equal to
me; then we will be the same."
The morality of slaves
reduces all to bondage; the morality of masters encourages
all to attain, if they can, the heights of freedom.



I  used to read this as... we are not the same... become as great as i am, then we will be the same.

But now, i don't read it like that anymore.  Now i read it more as...   We are not the same... if you want to be the same, then you can use me as your template and try to match me... but i sure as hell am not going to use you as my template and try to match you.  I am uniquely me, and I have no desire to be you. I aspire to be my truest, free-est, greatest self. 

Again, i haven't read all of the books, but i think the whole who is superior vs. inferior idea is not really so relevant to Gorean morality.  Yes there are people who may become leaders, but that does not make them superior.   The only ones who are inferior, are slaves who are living according to someone else's standards instead of their own.

~sgs


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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 3:20:05 PM   
Apocalypso


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Firstly, thank you for your reply.  I've cut and pasted it over from the thread in general, as I think this thread is more conducive to genuine debate and discussion.

To try and isolate some key points of interest for me.

quote:

I think that Norman's central thesis in his books is that nearly everyone in modern day North America is unhappy, unhealthy, and unfulfilled because they try to live their lives in accordance with (IAW) politically correct fictions about how human beings are, rather that IAW with the truth of our nature.

My understanding is that Norman's view of the "truth of our nature" is heavily informed by evolutionary psychology.  Which is obviously a highly controversial field.  Are there any texts by Goreans who have tried to tackle the main controversies on this subject?

quote:

They subscribe to a particular notion of right and wrong:


What are the specifics of that moral code?

quote:

they assume that people are not equal, not the same, but quite different in many ways.

quote:

they are bent toward conquest and defiance


How do those two beliefs affect a free Gorean in terms of their day to day life?  Hypothetically speaking, how would Goreans run modern society?

quote:

they also agree with the statement "Be strong, and do as you will. The swords of others will set your limits."

How do you reconcile that with the Gorean notion of duty to community?  As an anarchist, that particular philosophical question has a real personal resonance for me.


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I am not what you call a civilized man! I have done with society entirely, for reasons which I alone have the right of appreciating. I do not, therefore, obey its laws, and I desire you never to allude to them before me again!

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 3:43:10 PM   
Trevelyan


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sgs,

I basically agree with you, if I correctly understand what you are saying.

Gor is about being free. If you want me to recognize you as an equal, measure up to the characteristics of a free Gorean. Don't bleat about being equal, be equal.

But...I think Norman is saying be free within the Gorean context. If your version of freedom does not include being allegiant to your community, you will not be as happy, healthy and fulfilled as you would be if it did, because a biological truth about humans is that we are most likely to be happy, healthy and fulfilled when we are part of a group/community.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Trevelyan

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 3:53:56 PM   
Sybilla


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  I've nothing to add here (so far, anyway) except that it's a good thread!




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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 4:09:52 PM   
Trevelyan


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Apocalypso,

Regarding evolutionary psychology, I know there have been discussions of that in the past in this forum. I am pretty sure that Leonidas was one of the informed participants. You could search the topic and his name.

Regarding specifics of the Gorean notion of right and wrong - if you look closely at my list of the characteristics of a free Gorean, you will notice that the first four points begin with a "-". The last five begin with a "*". Those last five are the specific points. I had tried to indent them to further set them off, but it did not work. Also, I quoted the full text from Norman from which I extracted the bullet points.

Regarding how the two beliefs affect a free Gorean in terms of their day to day life, and the question of how Goreans would run a society - these questions are good illustrations of why we Goreans so often recommend that people read the books, because they illustrate the answers. I strongly recommend that if you are interested you buy an e-book copy of Tarnsman of Gor (you can find links in the "FAQ" thread) and read it.

To give a more specific answer though regarding the two beliefs, consider Chamberlin and Churchill and their response to Hitler's demands. Chamberlin was a modern Englishman, steeped in the "Earth morality" that Norman mentions, and sought to accomodate Hitler. Churchill was a very different man, far more "Gorean" in many ways, and he responded with defiance.

Regarding reconciling "Do as you will" and allegiance to community - Goreans live in relatively small communities, city-states like in Greek and Roman times here on Earth. There are no nation states. And there is a saying to the effect that a city's laws extend only to its walls. So, if a Gorean is of a particular city, he will respect its laws within the city. Outside the city he will do as he wills.

Trevelyan

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 4:28:50 PM   
sweetgirlserves


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

sgs,

I basically agree with you, if I correctly understand what you are saying.

Gor is about being free. If you want me to recognize you as an equal, measure up to the characteristics of a free Gorean. Don't bleat about being equal, be equal.

But...I think Norman is saying be free within the Gorean context. If your version of freedom does not include being allegiant to your community, you will not be as happy, healthy and fulfilled as you would be if it did, because a biological truth about humans is that we are most likely to be happy, healthy and fulfilled when we are part of a group/community.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Trevelyan


Hello Trevelyan,
If he does it because you told him to... he is not Gorean.    If he does it because the community told him that in order to be Gorean, he has to do this, then he is not Gorean.   If he does it because he discovered this truth for himself, and believes it to be true for him, then he is Gorean.

To be honest, i need to give a lot more thought to this and read a lot more books... *smiles*... but the danger of coming up with a 'To Do' list, is that when people start 'doing it' because you told them that that is what they have to do to be Gorean... even though they may do every one of those things... they are not Gorean.   (IMO)

At this point, i would feel more comfortable talking about shared values than 'a to do list that makes one Gorean'.

~sgs

< Message edited by sweetgirlserves -- 6/28/2009 4:32:34 PM >


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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 4:50:02 PM   
Trevelyan


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sgs,

quote:

If he does it because you told him to... he is not Gorean. If he does it because the community told him that in order to be Gorean, he has to do this, then he is not Gorean. If he does it because he discovered this truth for himself, and believes it to be true for him, then he is Gorean.


Did you form this opinion because you read it in the books, or because you read it online someplace? A Gorean man I consider to be a friend who posts here frequently holds the same opinion that you are expressing. I respect his opinion and yours, but I disagree. Norman is not Nietzche, in my opinion.

A while ago, I did a study of the Gorean practice of having a Home Stone, and posted the results here. I can give a book reference for everything I said in that study. Check it out. Free Goreans, when they come of age, must swear an oath of allegiance to the Home Stone of their city. If they refuse, they are expelled from the city as outlaws. Goreans (in the books) feel that a community has a right to expect allegiance from its members.

By all means, keep reading and thinking, and posting your thoughts too.

Trevelyan





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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 6:26:12 PM   
sweetgirlserves


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Hello again Trevelyan,

It is more likely that you are correct than I am since your thoughts are based on a complete and comprehensive study of the entire series, and mine is not... My thoughts at this point are based on having read only 1/3 of the books, and having read many essays by other Goreans who have also read the series.    I appreciate having the opportunity to share my thoughts, but I will always qualify them with the reservation of... this is what I have come to understand in my study so far.. since I haven't read everything let alone thought through it all yet.

~sgs


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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/28/2009 7:45:09 PM   
Kimveri


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Evening, folks,

Howdy, Trevelyan, sgs,

I am enjoying this thread & the quality of it will demand that I bring my best effort to addressing the key questions. Unfortunately, I don't have the time for that tonight, but I DID want to address this particular point.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan
quote:

If he does it because you told him to... he is not Gorean. If he does it because the community told him that in order to be Gorean, he has to do this, then he is not Gorean. If he does it because he discovered this truth for himself, and believes it to be true for him, then he is Gorean.


Did you form this opinion because you read it in the books, or because you read it online someplace? A Gorean man I consider to be a friend who posts here frequently holds the same opinion that you are expressing. I respect his opinion and yours, but I disagree.


I agree with what sgs has said here, as I've read it. The actions (acting in ways to manifest these traits) are secondary to the motivating force, i.e. the individual's imperative.

If the person seeks to abide by these qualifications because an external authority (a leader, a council, a community) demands it, then they cannot be Gorean. Their actions become empty mimicry.

If the person seeks to abide by these qualifications because they discovered a personal value in them & they feel driven to uphold these qualities by their own internal imperative, then they can be Gorean.

There are times when what someone does is not nearly as important as why they do it. Even more important is the "why" of those actions they feel they must do.

Finding your imperatives in life are necessary to 1) be free, 2) be great, & 3) be enough of both to be a beneficial individual member of a potentially beneficial group/community.

There's a process to this, IMO.

Thank you all for the incredibly lovely Brain Food!

I wish you all well,

~Kimveri



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"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/29/2009 10:24:06 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Greetings NorthernGent,

I read Luther's essays over 3 years ago, so I cannot comment on what he means, but I will attempt to answer your questions from my understanding of things. Granted there are some that do not agree, but these are still how I understand things at this time. Also, all of life is a learning experience, so as I run into things in life that correlate to something within the series I may change my understanding. It is in this way that I do not believe this to be a stagnant thing. If ever my views change from that of the Gorean Morality, I will no longer claim to be Gorean. I see nothing wrong or right in that, just how things are.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

From another thread where people were asked to post in this section regarding Gorean philosophy. Here's my response to the link to Luther who penned his view of Gor.

The author is keen to stress that Gor isn't a one size fits all. Fair enough.

The author is keen to stress that Gor is not akin to Fascism. Fair enough.

The author is keen to stress that no two people are the same and hold differing talents and skills. I'd say this is self-evident when you look around any room full of people.

The author stresses that equality laws are designed to protect the inferior - there's a spot of Nietzsche in this thought process. Equality laws however (certainly in England) are not designed to make everyone equal; they are designed to ensure that people get a fair crack of the whip and have the foundations in place from which to succeed or fail from a level playing field. The difference isn't even subtle.


This is where my understanding differs slightly. There is a difference between being equal, and equitable treatment via the law. I believe that all citizens in good standing (meaning no felonies, severe crimes, etc.) should have equal treatment under the law. Where I agree is trying to force this into a social structure. Sorry but not all people are equal, some are better, and some are worse. The better and worse will depend upon society, and each individuals judgment of that person. To me this is where we accept the consequences of our actions. If someone wishes to rebel against the status quo, then to bemoan how those that hold to it, treat them, is trying to get something for nothing. If they want to change the status quo, then exhibit the qualities needed to do so.

quote:


"They hold that it is the desire of the inferiors to be placed on the same level as their superiors"
 
Or conversely Gorean philosophy is the desire of equals to fulfill their ambitions of self-proclaimed superiority.


This speaks to me about those that wish to be given something, they have not earned. In general I agree with the first statement, but the last statement does not seem quite right. I recognize that there are some things I am superior at, and others that I am inferior at, as compared to another individual who may or may not have better qualities in specific areas.

quote:


Two questions remain unanswered for me:

1) What makes one inferior or superior according to Gorean philosophy - it is a stretch to equate differing skills and talents to inferiority and superiority. It would be useful were someone to fill in the missing link. From my point of view these are grand ideas in the same vein as Communism; the idea may be different but they are underpinned by the same common denominator: an appeal to abstract notions (which can never be proven) at the expense of the experience of human behaviour.


The first step in someone being superior, or in line with the Gorean Morality, is to recognize that those that follow a Master Morality are on the path of self improvement. The next is to seize personal sovereignty of your life, which also means accepting responsibility for all of your actions. The next would be to recognize that they should always do their best, and take pride in the actions they take. They recognize the positive things that improve their life, and hold these in high regard. That they set out a code for themselves, and follow it, but they also re-examine it as life comes. If there is an exception to a code, they make note of it, if there is too many exceptions to the code then they may need to rethink and change that code so that it is more in line with their "foundation principles". They admire strength (however you wish to define that as physical, mental, social, or a combination) and strive to improve to be strong. Task they undertake they see as a challenge of conquest.

These are just a few things of what I see the series illustrates as superior traits. There really is no grocery list to check off. There are some fundamentals, which I have been very general about in the above paragraph. There are some old topics here that discuss some of the ideas in more depth.

quote:


Edited to add: I imagine Orion will be keen to approach this one based on his request to post such views in this section.


Not so much keen, as I am open to discussion about these things with anyone. Not sure who made the comment in the other topic, but these ideas/beliefs/morality need to be held up to intense discussion. There have already been a few things that I have changed my mind on from the beginning of my study into Gorean Morality. One thing I try not to lose sight of and that is the fact that Norman/Lange is speaking of human behavior within the fictional society he has created, which means that some things can be applied to our daily lives, and some things are best left in the fictional world of Gor.

Don't have time to address the other question, or respond to some of these excellent posts, but I hope to have more time later this evening or tomorrow. No promises though.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die, die glauben, erfordern keinen Beweis. Die, die zweifeln, kein Beweis genügen.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Gorean Philosophy - 6/29/2009 4:50:06 PM   
Koa


Posts: 208
Joined: 7/27/2005
Status: offline
Lets not forget that in the minds and hearts of Goreans,( according to the books) the accident of birth does not insure ones rights to be a member of the caste or citizen to the city in which he/she is born. They must prove themselves worthy by following the rules and or going above and beyond their call of duty. If they wish to be a part of the city they have to go before the council and with two witnesses, not related to them, to vouch for them to be a citizen. This is probably a Gorean right of passage at the coming of age, most likely around the ages of 18-25. No doubt this person would being having a big party if they were accepted as a citizen.

This shows that Goreans do follow, this does not make them any less Gorean. The word defiant would have to be phrased carefully, defying the law will surely see to it that they will not move up on the later in their birth caste and could get them kicked out of their city. But that does not mean they will not be seen as a Gorean, only an outlaw. They could be defiant in that they are born into a low caste and they deify that caste to get into a high caste, should they show the necessary skills to do so. This person could have some family issues do to leaving their birth caste, but all in all, society would see them as a member of the high.
As you can see, Goreans do work hard and follow rules to be excepted by others, this does not make anyone more or less Gorean. It just makes them superior or inferior to each other.

Koa Bosk.


< Message edited by Koa -- 6/29/2009 4:52:51 PM >


_____________________________

Lo Koa Bosk

...but to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought.
(Marauders, p.7)

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 20
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