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Why a caste system? - 6/30/2009 5:00:45 PM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 202
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		The inferiority vs. superiority had me again thinking about the whole 'caste' system approach in the series, as one answer to the question is that some castes were seen as higher castes and some lower (and in that way, i suppose that you could say  some were superior to others), but in reality, they were different, but equally important to the Gorean society overall.

I just wondered, though, why did Norman use a caste system that you were born and bred into instead of what we have here in America today... pick what you want to do and go for it?    I have a few hunches of my own since I am a 'born and bred farmgirl'... *smiles* of four generations on the same plot of land, but I was interested in hearing what people's thoughts were on why a caste system was used.

~sgs


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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 9:27:00 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 21901
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Oh? There is no caste system? 

Bernie Madoff et al.
CEOs
Presidents
Senators
Congressmen
Doctors
Celebrities
Sports Figures

A rose by any other name would smell.
A disgruntled Juliet

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THE ICECREAM CONE NEXT TO YOUR NAME

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 9:49:00 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 633
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: online 		I wouldn't consider any of the above professions a caste, though.  Just because you're a doctor, senator, president or even a CEO, doesn't mean your partner or offspring will automatically be the same.  They may benefit from the position of their relative, but does not put them into the same category.  

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 9:57:24 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		~FR~

The caste system on Gor was not inflexible. Youth were tested to see where their talents lay & then could be moved up or down in caste accordingly. Also, companionships could include the changing of caste as well. Anyone with the talent, skill & determination to become a physician could do so on Gor.

~K

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 10:08:29 AM   
Louve00


Posts: 633
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: online 		If that was how the castes worked in Gor, so be it.  In America we don't refer to these professions as castes though.  We are not a caste based system.  As with FC's, and a traditional marriage, there may be parallels, but I wouldn't necessarily think of them as the same thing.  Here is a link about castes. http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Caste_system .   From that link, is the definition of Caste which reads:

Caste is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as "an endogamous and hereditary social group limited to persons of the same rank, occupation, and economic position." The word caste is derived from the Romance word casta (seen in Portuguese, Spanish, and Italian), which (in addition to representing the same concept as English caste) can mean "lineage" or "race." It comes from Romance casto, which can mean "pure" or "chaste." Casto in Latin means "chaste," which is derived from castus, meaning "pure, cut off, separated."[1]
 
As a religious concept relating to Hinduism, the Oxford English Dictionary recognizes caste as "each of the hereditary classes of Hindu society, distinguished by relative degrees of ritual purity and of social status" and as "any exclusive social class".[2] Anthropologists use the term more generally, to refer to a social group that is endogamous and occupationally specialized. Such groups are common in societies with a low degree of social mobility. In its broadest sense, examples of caste-based societies include colonial Latin America under Spanish and Portuguese rule, Japan, Korea, some parts of Africa, as well as across the Indian subcontinent.
 
Many of these cultures show only the remnants of a caste system that divided the population into what might today be regarded as different social classes, based on lineage and on the role they performed in society. What remains, however, and is common to many cultures is the "outcaste," the people considered below the level of common humanity of all the others, "untouchable." They and their descendants, the dalit in India, the burakumin in Japan, the baekjeong in Korea, all have faced discrimination, and some continue to do so today.
 
If Goreans have adapted a different meaning of a caste, then I'll be the first to say that is a Gorean's choice to do (or the Gorean community, perhaps, to do).  But that doesn't mean comparing the caste system of the Goreans is the same as making it a caste system in America.


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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 10:13:19 AM   
sweetgirlserves


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Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		I realize that the caste system on Gor was not inflexible, but the basic idea was that you were born and bred into a particular caste, and that is where you would focus your life's work... with the exceptions provided if indeed you really had a passion and the ability to switch castes.  Overall though, your family, your ancestors, and your children would all work within the same caste. 

My question is, why would Norman choose to use that as the basis for Gorean society's social structure, as opposed to ... here are the castes (or categories) of opportunities, pick one and pursue it. (Like we have in today's society).

~sgs


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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 10:29:48 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		It seems pretty obvious to me why Norman would present an idealized balance between those two extremes. He had the benefits of strong caste structure: pride in one's work improves productivity, performance, craftsmanship & product. A strong caste structure also adds to the social cohesiveness & reinforces the idea that much of what/who we are is genetic, encoded into our cells.

With the flexibility he illustrated Norman allows for unorthodoxy. He welcomes change, adpatation & growth right alongside tradition, acquired skill & technique.

Seems to me he was presenting a balanced, beneficial example of how work lends stability to a community without reducing the individual.

~Kimveri 

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 11:02:32 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

I realize that the caste system on Gor was not inflexible, but the basic idea was that you were born and bred into a particular caste, and that is where you would focus your life's work... with the exceptions provided if indeed you really had a passion and the ability to switch castes.  Overall though, your family, your ancestors, and your children would all work within the same caste. 

My question is, why would Norman choose to use that as the basis for Gorean society's social structure, as opposed to ... here are the castes (or categories) of opportunities, pick one and pursue it. (Like we have in today's society).

~sgs



Dancer of Gor [Gor Series Book 22]
by John Norman
298
Most Goreans take caste very seriously. It is
apparently one of the socially stabilizing forces on Gor. It
tends to reduce the dislocations, disappointments and
tragedies inherent in more mobile structures, in which men
are taught that they are failures if they do not manage to
make large amounts of money or excel in one of a small
number of prestigious professions. The system also helps to
keep men of energy and high intelligence in a wide variety of
occupations, this preventing the drain of such men into a
small number of often artificially desiderated occupations, this
tending then to leave lesser men, or frustrated men, to
practice other hundreds of arts the survival and maintenance
of which are important to a superior civilization. Provisions for
changing caste exist on Gor, but they are seldom utilized.
Most Goreans are proud of their castes and the skills
appropriate to them. Such skills, too, tend to be appreciated
by other Goreans, and are not looked down on.






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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 11:08:47 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Slave Girl of Gor [Gor Series Book 11]
by John Norman
359
Whereas caste membership is commonly
connected with the practice of an occupation, such as
agriculture, or commerce, or war, there can be, of course,
caste members who are not engaged in caste work and
individuals who do certain forms of work who are not
members of that caste commonly associated with such work.
Caste, commonly, though not invariably, is a matter of birth.
One may, too, be received into a caste by investment.
Normally mating takes place among caste members, but if
the mating is of mixed caste, the woman may elect to retain
caste, which is commonly done, or be received into the caste
of the male companion. Caste membership of the children
born of such a union is a function of the caste of the father.
Similar considerations, in certain cities, hold of citizenship.
Caste is important to Goreans in a way that is difficult for
members of a non-caste society to understand. Though there
are doubtless difficulties involved with caste structure the
caste situation lends an individual identity and pride, allies
him with thousands of caste brothers, and provides him with
various opportunities and services. Recreation on Gor is often
associated with caste, and tournaments and entertainments.
Similarly, most public charity on Gor is administered through
caste structures. The caste system is not inflexible and there
are opportunities for altering caste, but men seldom avail
themselves of them; they take great pride in their castes,
often comparing others' castes unfavorably to their own; a
Gorean's caste, by the time he reaches adulthood, seems to
have become a part of his very blood and being; the average
Gorean would no more think of altering caste than the
average man of Earth would of altering his citizenship, from,
say, American to Russian, or French to Chinese. The caste
Slave Girl of Gor [Gor Series Book 11]
by John Norman
360
structure, in spite of its many defects, doubtless contributes
to the stability of Gorean society, a society in which the
individual has a place, in which his work is respected, and in
which he can plan intelligently with respect to the future. The
clan structures are kinship groups. They function, on the
whole, given mating practices, within the caste structure, but
they are not identical to it. For example, in a given clan there
may be, though often there are not, individuals of different
castes. Many Goreans think of the clan as a kinship group
within a caste. For most practical purposes they are correct.
At least it seldom does much harm to regard the matter in
this way. Clans, because of practical limitations on mobility,
are usually associated, substantially, with a given city; the
caste, on the other hand, is transmunicipal or intermunicipal.
These remarks would not be complete without mentioning
Home Stones. Perhaps the most significant difference
between the man of Earth and the Gorean is that the Gorean
has a Home Stone, and the man of Earth does not. It is
difficult to make clear to a non-Gorean the significance of the
Home Stone, for the non-Gorean has never had a Home
Stone, and thus cannot understand its meaning, its reality. I
think that I shall not try to make clear what is the significance
to a Gorean of the Home Stone. It would be difficult to put
into words; indeed, it is perhaps impossible to put into words;
I shall not try. I think this is one of the saddest things about
the men of Earth, that they have no Home Stone.


< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 7/1/2009 11:10:38 AM >

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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 11:12:34 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Witness of Gor [Gor Series Book 26]
by John Norman
351
The man with the fellow who had returned to the terrace
was, as I would later learn to recognize at a glance by his
garb, a member of the leather workers. In many of the
Gorean cities there is a caste structure which is significant not
only socially but politically. The leather workers are a "low
caste." The high castes are normally accounted five in
number—the Warriors, the Builders, the Physicians, the
Scribes, and the Initiates. The Initiates are sometimes
thought of as the highest of the five high castes, and the
Warriors as the least of the five high castes. In actual fact,
the Warriors commonly produce the administrators and ubars
for a city. It is not easy in a world such as this to deprive
those who are skilled with weapons their share of authority. If
it is not given to them, they will take it. There are some
ambiguities in the caste structure. For example, some rank
the Merchants as a high caste, and some do not; and some
rank the Slavers with the Merchants, and some see them as a
separate caste, and so on. It is usually a very serious thing to
lose caste in this society. To be sure, not everyone has caste.
Priest-Kings, for example, whoever they may be, have no
caste. They are said to be "above caste." Similarly, outlaws
and slaves have no caste. Outlaws are thought to have
relinquished caste, and, in a sense, thus, to be "out of caste,"
and slaves, of course, as animals, are "below caste," or,
perhaps better, "aside from caste" or "apart from caste." To
be sure, I think there are others who also lack caste, really.
Some may not have been raised "in caste," some may decline
or flee their castes before the initiations, and so on. Similarly,
there are entire groups of people, as I understand it,
barbarians, savages, and such, whose social arrangements
are not based on caste. Very little on this world, and, I
suppose, on others, is simple.


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"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 11:14:10 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 526
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Witness of Gor [Gor Series Book 26]
by John Norman
382
The Peasants were generally regarded as the lowest of the
castes, though why that should be I have never been able to
determine. That caste is sometimes referred to as "the ox on
which the Home Stone rests." I am not clear as to what a
Home Stone is, but I have gathered that it, whatever it might
be, is regarded as being of great importance on this world.
So, if that is the case, and the Peasants is indeed the caste
upon which the Home Stone rests, then it would seem, at
least in my understanding, to be a very important caste. In
any event, it would seem to me that the Peasants is surely
one of, if not the, most significant of the castes of this world.
So much depends upon them! Too, I am sure they do not
regard themselves as being the lowest of the castes. In fact, I
doubt that any caste regards itself as being the lowest of the
castes. It would seem somewhat unlikely that any caste
would be likely to accept that distinction. Perhaps many
castes regard themselves as equivalent or, at least, as each
being the best in diverse ways. For example, the leather
workers would presumably be better at working leather than
the metal workers, and the metal workers would presumably
be better at working metal than the leather workers, and so
on. One needs, or wants, it seems, all the castes.


_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 11:40:21 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 202
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you very much for the comments, and thank you Trevelyan, for the book references.  I have read two of the books you cited, but i don't have them anymore, so i don't have access to review them.  

I put this out there because it is something i can personally relate to... i know that the Gorean equivalent today is to find the thing you love to do and do it as your job, as opposed to just working for money, regardless of whether your heart is in it or not.  

I think the things the books cannot totally express is the way it feels to be born and raised in a family with a shared sense of purpose relating to your life's work.  There is nothing quite like your whole family, grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, parents,siblings and family friends sitting around a dinner table together after a hard but satisfying day's work of farming together.   To be born and raised in such an atmosphere is one of the things I most cherish about my upbringing, and I realize it is a special honor that most people never experience.  It really is something to have an occupation 'in your blood'... almost literally, knowing that you are doing the same work that your parents, grandparents, and great grandparents did... and there is a special kind of pride in it that is difficult to articulate.   

I know that the closest thing to it is for people to try to find their life's work, and perhaps even become companions with one who shares the same field, and then make friends together that also work in the same field... and that is good.... but i think you can never get the same feeling in your soul as you do when you are raised in something from birth, and it is shared throughout your family.

~sgs

< Message edited by sweetgirlserves -- 7/1/2009 11:42:24 AM >

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RE: Why a caste system? - 7/1/2009 1:53:04 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6082
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		sweetgirlserves (and others)-

A thorough treatment would take too much time for me to commit to at this point, but suffice to say that there is a caste system in effect, not just in the fictional world of Gor, but also on the very tangible world of Earth, here and now. You could make a coherent argument that the caste mobility is higher in some regards, but the gap between high castes and low castes is higher in the real world than in the fiction. Much of this is due to the lack of meritocratic thought, which is also one of the limiting factors in the fiction, just less pronounced than in reality. Also, the reality sees less benefit from the caste system, which is arguably less functional in the real world, although I suspect any argument I might make about that would be on less solid grounds than an argument about the reality of a caste system.

Really, caste has many important functions, some of which run parallell to the benefits of tribal identity, religious identity, and so forth. Again without delving too deeply into the subject matter, the first and most recurring step in evolution has been the formation of impermeable membranes that seperate this from that, self from other, and us from them. Thus competition and conflict is enhanced, and thus self-ness and identity grows stronger. Why do you think the Torah and Talmud devote so much time to creating an impermeable cultural membrane to seperate Jews from non-Jews, for instance?

Since the topic and its arguments are so extensive, I recommend making the assumption that it's a good thing, that we've reached the correct conclusion, and then try to figure out why this is so, what makes it right. At that point, you can test the insights you have reached along the way against the evidence of history and current world events. It may not cater to modern western notions of fairness, but it's still fucking brilliant.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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I have taken up arms against justice.
— Arthur Rimbaud, A Season in Hell

It is only hubris if I fail.
— Cæsar, Rome


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