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RE: What defines a gorean framework?


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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/2/2009 9:01:04 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		If you think about it, the girls of this generation are the ones who are actually 'getting it all'. Really, the line between FW and 'slut' has been blurred for the first time in history, and girls are being taught that they can have a great career and no longer have to dress like men to do it. They can revel in their relationships with men, and dress slutty if they want, and really... have it all.

Finally, maybe women are truly becoming FREE.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Maahsatti)
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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/2/2009 9:53:38 AM   
kianiZ


Posts: 25
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

If you think about it, the girls of this generation are the ones who are actually 'getting it all'. Really, the line between FW and 'slut' has been blurred for the first time in history, and girls are being taught that they can have a great career and no longer have to dress like men to do it. They can revel in their relationships with men, and dress slutty if they want, and really... have it all.

Finally, maybe women are truly becoming FREE.

~sgs



Greetings sgs~

For some girls the “lines” might be “blurred” but not for kiani. Don’t get kiani wrong she has lived 47 years and has learned more than could be written on paper about being a woman. To say the “lines” are “blurred” between FW and a “slut” is to kiani not true for her as the line of being a slave and slut to her Master are very clearly defined in her mind.

A FW though is a whole other woman from how kiani sees this though. How can a slave speak to what it means to be a FW as being slave does include being enslaved to living her life for the sole pleasure of strong masterful men and in particular her natural Master? Are you saying that FW are also "sluts" and FREE at the same time?

kiani cannot even fathom trying to wrap her heart, mind and soul around being a FW because the freedom kiani has always sought comes from being enslaved to a strong masterful man and by Him enslaving kiani she is then free, but not free in the sense that comes to a FW.

Freedom is not something that is the same to every woman from how kiani sees this subject. But then again freedom is a part of a gorean framework, well at least for her Master it is. Differently expressed but still a part of it.

Anyhow sgs~ …..kiani does not understand how it is true to say the “lines” are “blurred” between FW and a “slut.” But like kiani said in the beginning here that for some girls the “lines” might be “blurred” but not for kiani. Maybe kiani missed something you were saying or meant by saying what you said? Are you slave or FW? Are you saying that it is possible to be “both?”

YES ....kiani has many questions about what you meant but as she said it could have been an oversight or maybe it is because kiani is slave and has no right to say what a FW thinks. Even if kiani wanted to say what a FW felt or thought she could not do a good job at it as to kiani a FW is not at all how kiani views herself as a woman. Now if were talking slave then kiani has a few things to say and one thing about being slave for kiani does include being a slut to and for my Master as He desires with of course no blurring lines at all. But then again kiani is merely slave.

His kianiZ


_____________________________

"Though I am slave, "she said, "yet for the first time in my life, I am free," Page 303 - Nomads of Gor

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/2/2009 11:24:51 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings sgs,

I really do not see where having a career and dressing like a slut shows how a woman has it all.
The business women I know would never think of it, that is, not showing up to work looking as such.
I still think most women out in the business world are confused, to the point that they take offense when a man opens a door for them or pulls out their seat.
Men still can not even joke around or pay them a compliment on their appearance without ending up in some sensitivity  class aka sexual harassment class.
They think they have to be the biggest baddest hard noses going in order to be taken seriously and still feel the need to be equal to men in the work place if not superior.
In my post to Tim the women I was more speaking about were FW living Gorean, of course there are the vanilla exceptions I am sure, but far and few between.
It is not even easy for FW to achieve and obtain, let alone women who try to push away their natural feelings.

well wishes,
Mistress B


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/2/2009 11:47:30 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

If you think about it, the girls of this generation are the ones who are actually 'getting it all'. Really, the line between FW and 'slut' has been blurred for the first time in history, and girls are being taught that they can have a great career and no longer have to dress like men to do it. They can revel in their relationships with men, and dress slutty if they want, and really... have it all.

Finally, maybe women are truly becoming FREE.

~sgs


Oh, dear, I do hope you are being sarcastic.

It is impossible for anyone to "have it all" - yes it is true that girls can dress slutty and focus on their career, but then they wonder why they're never-married at 40 or twice-divorced at 30. And unlike men, we do have a relatively narrow span in which we are able to bear children.

No, as much as I might fear the concept of veils, and rail on about harsh penalties (enslavement) for 'breaking the rules' I do see something to the Gorean way of thinking on this. In our world, the collar is figurative rather than literal - a slutty girl might not be legally bound to serve men but once she's set in that niche, with that reputation, well, her options to become a respectable and respected wife are small.

Our grandmothers might have not known the freedom of passionate university love affairs, but they also didn't know the pain of wondering why that nice gentleman they went home with from the bar never called.

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/2/2009 3:18:37 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6620
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		Hey, Elisabella.

Trust a slave to have a different perspective on freedom...

Anyway, female competition is more frequently based on exclusion than on personal excellence, and this extends to sex, where women have set the template for companies like DeBeers for most of recorded history: brand everything else as an inferior product, and set up a seller controlled market with a solid monopoly. A prostitutes is a threat because they sell at market value, and are both apt to have some skill and some of the benefits of a slave ("every man wants to be a tyrant when he fornicates," n'est-ce pas?). Sluts are a bigger thread, as they're giving away the goods for free, and are frequently more skilled at what they do.

On Gor, slavery neutralizes the threat, because a suitable FC is one that plays by the rules of this de facto guild, and having free children pretty much means having them with a "guild approved" woman. It's almost like using union labor. And, of course, if you break the rules, you find yourself in a collar. Since the FC can have more financial power, and has the power to leave, this is a huge win for anyone that is willing to live within those strictures. If Norman were less concerned with his satire, he might have used the Panthers to describe a different solution; the road not taken, if you will. In any case, Earth history shows the same thing arising out of the Abrahamic tradition, together with misogyny, humane ethics and a bunch of other things that are 'the price to pay' for a level playing field.

As such, Gor is a woman's world, an underappreciated fact.

Of course, it's also a world where you can eat your cake and have some, too: the FC can turn into a slut behind closed doors, so the repressive attitudes of the humane ethic baggage only concerns public behavior, and those that have fully internalized it can be collared, broken of the internalized barriers, and then uncollared again. We see the same spectacle on the other side of the board here, except that the barriers are suspended, rather than broken. Virtually every "forced" cock sucking man on the other side is looking for a woman to use as a permission slip to maintain his humane ethic type masculinity in the presence of a socially unacceptable desire: a proxy to absolve him of accountability. I'll let the women speculate on the corresponding examples for women on the other side; there's more than a few.

To quote a female prime minister from Norway: the only obstacle to women's liberation is women.

In the western world, at least, her observation seems accurate.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/2/2009 4:07:33 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

The more one proclaims their freedom, the less likely they see that which binds them. Often the thing that binds and confines us the most, is ourselves. Maybe this is why it states in Marauders that when someone actually comes to the realization of Gorean Morality, they often have an extremely difficult time in articulating it. Each moment of our lives is a stone upon which we step, the path though is our determination on whether it goes forward, back wards, or often in a circle. The choice of where to place that foot next is an act of realization, and not something that can be conveyed to another.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/2/2009 5:14:47 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline 		Hi Aswad,

Thanks for the great reply. What struck me most was you saying that Gor is a woman's world...I'm reading Gone With The Wind (one of my favorite movies) and it reminds me of something I just read in it:

quote:

What Melanie did was no more than all Southern girls were taught to do--to make those
about them feel at ease and pleased with themselves. It was this happy feminine conspiracy
which made Southern society so pleasant. Women knew that a land where men were
contented, uncontradicted and safe in possession of unpunctured vanity was likely to be a
very pleasant place for women to live. So, from the cradle to the grave, women strove to
make men pleased with themselves, and the satisfied men repaid lavishly with gallantry and
adoration. In fact, men willingly gave the ladies everything in the world except credit for
having intelligence.


Aside from the having intelligence bit, I can see similarities here. And I agree with what you say about slavery lessening the threat - but even without literal slavery, there will always be a virgin/whore dichotomy in the way men see women. A man wants to be able to revere the mother of his children the way he reveres his own mother. In fact, I do understand why people get prickly about Gorean men marrying slaves. Not because the legal document elevates the slave, but because men are conditioned from the cradle, and possibly from their innate nature, that there are ways in which you can't view or treat your wife, your legal companion. It's also why I don't see it as a hard and fast rule, because it's not the document and status that elevates a slave, but the man's reaction to her "taking his name," so to speak.

I really think it's a shame that Gorean thought is associated with SCA type sexual roleplay and online game playing, because the framework seems to show a deep understanding of human nature.


_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 6:12:43 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		The only point that I am trying to make is one that is fairly obvious if you lift your head up and look at the world around you.  Women, in general, are more free to express themselves more fully as being both sexual creatures, and all the other things that they are...  they don't need to really 'hide' their femininity to be successful in business anymore... in fact, it is often an asset.  

And while men may not want to marry and settle down with the town whore, at the same time, he does not expect his future bride to be a virgin.   

That's all...

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 6:19:33 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kianiZ

Are you saying that FW are also "sluts" and FREE at the same time?


Now if were talking slave then kiani has a few things to say and one thing about being slave for kiani does include being a slut to and for my Master as He desires with of course no blurring lines at all. But then again kiani is merely slave.

His kianiZ




so kiani...
what 'slutty' things do you do 'to' and 'for' your Master that you don't think a FW would do for her FC?      Do you think FW only have missionary sex?

seriously...


geeze.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to kianiZ)
Profile   Post #: 229
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 7:24:33 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

The only point that I am trying to make is one that is fairly obvious if you lift your head up and look at the world around you.  Women, in general, are more free to express themselves more fully as being both sexual creatures, and all the other things that they are...  they don't need to really 'hide' their femininity to be successful in business anymore... in fact, it is often an asset.  

And while men may not want to marry and settle down with the town whore, at the same time, he does not expect his future bride to be a virgin.   

That's all...

~sgs


The facts are true. The meaning is a matter of perspective.

One could just as easily say that women are expected to be sexual creatures, with less discrimination...that we're just as much playing a role now as we were then, the only thing that's changed is what that role is.

I agree that we are given more options, but a larger array of choices does not equate to freedom. In fact, I'd say it's a bit of an oxymoron to say "I am freer now because I can do more things while remaining in the sphere of social approval." The leash might be longer, but you're still tethered to it if you can't imagine living without it.

But yes. Women today are given far more options than our ancestors. That is without a doubt true.

--

Also one thing I'd like to add - we're viewing the past with our own eyes. We don't know what those women thought about their station in life - remember that there were large groups of women who protested against the suffragette movement. As horrified as some of us might be at the thought of living Victorian, at the thought of being "repressed," I'd think that even the most vocal supporter of womens rights 100-150 years ago would be horrified at baring her body in the street in shorts and a tank top, being expected to have sex as part of a relationship whether or not it will lead to marriage, living in a world where nobody will think twice if her husband leaves her and she has to work two jobs to support her children...we know what we know, and what is foreign seems bad to us.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 9/3/2009 7:56:36 AM >

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 7:26:24 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves
so kiani...
what 'slutty' things do you do 'to' and 'for' your Master that you don't think a FW would do for her FC?      Do you think FW only have missionary sex?

seriously...


geeze.

~sgs


I think the answer lies less in the "slutty things" and more in the "for your master" bit.

JMO.

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 231
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 7:46:25 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		... i like missionary sex *winks
 
don't think i'd much like sex with a missionary though, all that guilt...
 
Anyhow, greetings.  intesting topic, 
 
I work in a professional career, and here is what i have found most interesting, the men hold the door for me, and even offer me compliments on my looks, or clothing, or hair.  At the same time, they seek my advise in my area of expertise, and often ask me to help with theirs.  I am commanded to dress feminine for work, and i do.  This has not at all affected my career, or my progress up the ladder of success.   So in considering that others may have a different experience, i wonder if its a "vibe" i give off.  Or maybe its that when a guy slips up and forgets ‘his place’ and opens the door for me,  instead of decking him, i look a little shy and smile and say thank you... 

On the topic of sluts, I don’t really see the definition of slut as being a woman who has sex in many positions.  It’s more a personality trait, probably genetic, with some factors introduced by environment and upbringing.   The kind of slut that I am, and always have been is that I have, since I can remember; put my priority on things having to do with love and sexuality, over, say… my grades, my health, my family, my career…  In some cases you learn to adapt and you sort of force yourself to point the other direction and take care of business that matters,  to re prioritize that list of 'things-to-do-today' so that “getting laid” is not at the top.   It is not easy though.   That’s where having someone to be accountable to comes in handy.  As an owned female I can safely be a slut, and let my owner worry about where priority should be placed. 
 
 
 

< Message edited by edana -- 9/3/2009 7:48:14 AM >

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 7:54:03 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Again people are focusing on ACTIONS to make a slave or FW.  FW do the same things slaves do.  However, slaves do it for MEN wherein FW keep it contained for their FC's.  There is the mindsets that these work.  Its one of the reasons i don't consider myself the Editome of Gorean FW, even though i am the status of a FW. 

I personally believe most women in our society are slave living as the status of a FW.  They enjoy their supposed freedom they will even attempt to use it for gain among Men, they will strive to be the equal of Men and compete against Men, but in the end, they crave the attention of Men in general and serving Men as a whole concept and will use their sexuality and sexual expression to attempt to manipulate men.  Which many times is what women attempted to do prior to being captured and made actual slaves who no longer had self-determinatoin over her sexual expression. 

Power is a very well powerful thing, an actual slave -- one who lives under the mastery of a Man slave gains her power from her lack of self-determination, her vulnerability... There is a "power" in slavery when a woman realizes she is not and never will be the equal of Men, but she will exist as a lowly animal among Men seeking their pleasure and their attention.  This is where her place and safety lies for her.   This power is not used for gain as it is with many Free.  The power of freedom is a power to me that is utilized to achieve from someone else what is wished and determined by the power-holder.   I see this struggle many times with FW who have FC's, well struggle may be the wrong word, but it seems to be a line she must walk and many times hold herself in check too such a line wherein the power she obtains from her own freedom and such is not many times used for gain against the "wrong" Man so to speak -- to me this is where the concept of manipulation by a FW gets her tended to by a Man.

I have power by the very nature of my life being that i exist at the moment with my own autonomy.  I get to determine how i choose to use that power, and yes many times i will exploit those with my power of freedom if they so allow.  As a slave, i had no such power of freedom and the powerfulness i felt was the power of the master where my complete focus was not on worrying about where i stood among others, but knowing where i stood period.  It was a power of contentment where it was simply defined and acknolwedged in my mind.  To me, the Gorean Free Woman who understands this concept fully to me has a very complex concept within which she exists.  

Actions do not make a FW or a slave, a Man makes a slave, a FW makes herself within the parameters of the Men who govern her and moreso by the parameters her beliefs and understandings create for her. 

A slave exists fully and completely without the autonomy to govern herself, she exists not for the sole purpose of one Man but for all Men within the parameters set of slavery her Master creates for her as well as the general expectations of Men --- not her own determination for herself.   These parameters are very sexual expectations of expression.  And the mindset of understanding what her existance is among MEN.  Once obtained the generality is not difficult to exist in and understand, which is why the "power" so to speak of slave is okay and understood among most Men, but not so much i believe among FW, because its a complete understanding of the slave's existance.

angel

angel


< Message edited by barelynangel -- 9/3/2009 7:55:59 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 9:28:27 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: edana
 The kind of slut that I am, and always have been is that I have, since I can remember; put my priority on things having to do with love and sexuality, over, say… my grades, my health, my family, my career… 



I am even now (and will be for some time to come I fear) trying to conjour up a vision of what I would consider an unhealthy sex practice.....color me both kink stupid and perverse, but it just ain't happinin' for me, here. All is fair in love, and on the floor.........

Hup

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 10:13:38 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: edana
 The kind of slut that I am, and always have been is that I have, since I can remember; put my priority on things having to do with love and sexuality, over, say… my grades, my health, my family, my career… 



I am even now (and will be for some time to come I fear) trying to conjour up a vision of what I would consider an unhealthy sex practice.....color me both kink stupid and perverse, but it just ain't happinin' for me, here. All is fair in love, and on the floor.........

Hup


As a former Pro-Domme, I can send you a list of things I've refused to do, out of fear of a lawsuit and/or negligent homicide charge.

Srsly.

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 10:30:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

As a former Pro-Domme.......



The 'Domme' thing is unhealthy enough for me......

Ron

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 10:33:51 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		greetings,
 
While i'm pretty sure you were being sarcastic. *smiles...  for me sex was not really even the most imporant aspect of being a slut,  i behave like a slut becasue i desire to be found sensually attractive by men and thus valued and kept.   As far as neglecting my health in favor of this, i simply meant that i would neglect to take care of things like eating right or going to my Dr or dentist because i was too busy pining away for a lost love, or desperatly seeking the next one...    Those are the things i dont have to worry about anymore.  

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 10:42:46 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		edana,

I was not being scarcastic, but rather I was being cute....maybe I am too old and crochety for that to come thru nowadays.

I think that slut for girls connotates something bad for them mostly, and doesn't hold the same for men's connotations mostly. Now 'skank' is pretty equivalent in both sexes in connotation.

Ron

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 238
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 10:50:59 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: edana

i simply meant that i would neglect to take care of things like eating right or going to my Dr or dentist because i was too busy pining away for a lost love, or desperatly seeking the next one...    Those are the things i dont have to worry about anymore. 


Oh, love, I know this feeling. Yesterday I ate three pudding cups and that's it. It's been nine months now that I've been separated from the man I love, and every so often I just get in this listless state, no lust for life.

It's possible to die from grief...widows stop eating, and die within months of losing their husband.

But I'm not sure I'd call it slutty to do so.

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 9/3/2009 10:53:57 AM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

As a former Pro-Domme.......



The 'Domme' thing is unhealthy enough for me......

Ron


laughs

Before I quit university, I wanted to be an international corporate attorney. If only I could put my stint as a Domme on my resume...

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

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