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RE: What defines a gorean framework?


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RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/3/2009 4:15:51 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 26040
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		what you missed, kiani, is that i was too once in your shoes. i have counseled many women in my position as labor and delivery nurse, held as many children, including my own, with tear stained faces, he own fear blazing from his eyes. again, i will say that we allow a certain amount of how we are treated unless we are shackled and held against out will... which i was. double locks on the doors, phone removed when he left. i would hazard a guess that at least 50% of the women on these boards have found themselves in an abusive relationship at one time or another.

quote:

Without a doubt kiani recognizes, the disparity between mastery in a ‘gorean framework” and crude or barbaric behaviors acting out in physical and mental sadistic violent way. Mastery is one thing, sadistic violence is another. Consent does not equal abuse. Nor does abuse define consent.


you fail to see that the definition isnt the same for everyone. and, by your statement, you are judging the Free who do enjoy a sense of kink in their lives. who are you to judge what they and their property enjoy? you can only judge your own relationships, not the relationships of others.

quote:

Explain how a “gorean framework” includes violent sadism that becomes progressively more dangerous as it is acted on a “slave” who is deemed “human property” further you propose that it is believed that this kind of violent sadism is acceptable because as a female she chooses this? Sure seems you just wanted to blame and shame any female who has survived abuse. Tazzy you missed the whole point of this thread “What defines a gorean framework?”


first, i have asked for a defintion of what Master Zevar sees as a gorean framework. in all honesty, it just seems like a bunch of made up words for something that is personal to each individual and cannot be defined as a group. i have also asked for the defining points of when it changes from healthy to abusive, again, no definition, even the experts are not in agreement. so, i dont think i have missed the point. cannot miss what is not being discussed.

as far as the shame and blame part.. i went through years of counseling myself to get to the point that i can say... yes... i was, in part, to blame for the abuse that happened in that relationship. and, you know what? it felt good to be able to say that. it took complete power away from him and gave me back that power. i suddenly realized i can stop it from happening again. i armed myself with all the knowledge and i took back control of the terror he instilled into me. perhaps some counseling for yourself, if you are not in it already, might be in order? i do not say that sarcastically, or meanly. sometimes we need help coping with such a stressful and terror filled situation.

quote:

Consent
1. give permission: to give formal permission for something to happen
2. agree: to agree to do something
3 permission for something: acceptance of or agreement to something proposed or desired by another
4 consensus: agreement on an opinion or course of action

Abuse is defined

1 maltreatment: the physical, psychological, or sexual maltreatment of a person or animal
2. improper use: the illegal, improper, or harmful use of something
3. improper practice: an illegal, improper, or harmful practice - human rights abuses



when i entered my relationships as a slave, i didnt enter them with the knowledge that i would allow them to do something or not do something. my place was to accept or leave. period. when i could no longer accept the treatment, i left. in one situation, i could NOT leave, physically, and so very few knew i was even there. with the help of the man who would cane me for BOTH our sexual pleasures, i did leave. nor did i find that man's caning of me maltreatment, instead, i found it sexually exciting. just because you dont like such behavior doesnt give you a right to demean anyone who does.

your definition of "gorean framework" works for you, it may not for others. that is my point. there is a difference between what people consider a healthy sexual life behind closed doors. when i have a woman tell me she is abused, i accept that. when i believe she may be abused, i ask question, watch the interactions not only between the couple but also the children and family. there are signs that show the difference between the two.

quote:

Some women might very well not be one of the lucky ones that who could get out with her children Many find themselves abused not by there choosing who would abuse them but have to flee to preserve their lives? You would say to her, what again?


30 years ago, domestic violence was spoken about in hushed tones, something a woman wore with shame because she was abused... something no one wanted to talk about. now, information abounds, signs and symptoms, so many places to turn for help, so often women are told.. at the first sign, get out... so much help is available. while i know love can bind, and blind, us, especially when children are involved it behooves the woman to heed these and get out. instead, many wish to believe he will change, wont do it again... it never works out that way. in one year, i contacted DSS (CPS now) and abuse shelters for 12 women. i was honored to testify in all 12 cases. i even went so far as to testify against 2 of my brothers who abused their wives and i found out, allowing my sister-in-laws and their children to move in with me, standing between the door and my brothers to keep them out, causing huge rifts within my own family because these women needed protection. what do you think i would say? but after the abuse, after you have left, as you are trying to heal.... counseling... all i can say is.. counseling.

quote:

Surely looks like you passively pretend to be discussing this topic when really only lending your input with sarcastic tones and an underlying message that in a “gorean framework“ it is acceptable for a man to enforce his will in a way that is really defined as abuse and not a “gorean framework” at all.


i do assure you, if you want sarcastic, i can truly oblidge. but i do find many of your comments, while given in support of Master Zevar, riddled with sarcasm and demeaning notes towards men on these boards who have the respect of many here.

my posts to Master Zevar were certainly not passive. they were an attempt to understand what he was not spelling out, instead he just alluded too. i even asked him at what point he believed normal ended and abuse began, as a way to have an interestinng discussion. my posts to you were hardly passive, which is why you are so upset. again, you can judge only your own relationship, you cannot judge the relationships of others. and, if those do not fit into your definition of "gorean", remember, you are a slave, it is not your place to judge what occurs between a man and his slave.

i underlined those last words for a reason. that phrase says to me he is a man in control, and she is a loving, willing participant to his will. when it turns abusive, he is no longer in control, and she is no longer willing. its just abuse, and no longer gorean. what is that point? there is no hard or fast rule. no defining line beyond the need for medical attention, and even then things can go wrong that neither party expected and its truly just an accident. that isnt the way it is in all cases, but, it does happen.

quote:

Without a doubt kiani recognizes, the disparity between mastery in a ‘gorean framework” and crude or barbaric behaviors acting out in physical and mental sadistic violent way. Mastery is one thing, sadistic violence is another. Consent does not equal abuse. Nor does abuse define consent.


...and i have stated my own answer... what is yours? when does it turn into an abusive relationship? why are you not willing to difine your terminology when its so open ended and can be interpreted in so many different directions? i dont think you can answer that, except as it pertains to your own relationship, kiani, which is why no definition has been forthcoming.

you were abused, i am truly sorry you, or any woman, has to live through that. but, to continue on in the victim role demeans other women who have walked through that fire and came out the otherside stronger. you have found a man who treats you in the fashion that you require to feel your slavery towards him the most. im so very glad you found a man you can trust, admire and look up too after all you have been through. and while it still sounds like your pain may be fresh, i would, perhaps, suggest that you keep your "eye on the prize" and not worry so much about other women who identify themselves as slaves within their own relationships, enjoying the same wonders that you are with your Master... just perhaps in a different way.

well wishes

tazzy

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 8/3/2009 4:23:26 AM >

_____________________________

No body dies a virgin... life fucks everyone.

RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

+20 Heresy Points - Hard earned!

Duchess of Dissent 1

(in reply to kiani)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/3/2009 4:25:10 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline 		FR~

My day has been one that required more than the usual patience upon much demands from many people in need and timeframes to meet with a conference to attend with no prior notice and then the usual workload. This was needless to say a situation that could have been not handled with composure intact. It was rather interesting to witness the reactions of other collegues. Then of course there was the reliable stalled traffic as the Bay bridge is crossed and the "hurry up and drive mode" on the bumper to bumper Freeway. I recognize most of us have our demands, without a doubt. In the driving time I thought of many things. One being this thread and my original intentions in presenting it. I thought of how they were somehow perceived to not be clearly conveyed or rather they were clearly conveyed yet ignored and in some instances outright contemptuously perceived for reasons unknown.

I am not complaining instead I am noting my almost always analytical thought processes aloud. I thought of how it is unfortunate that there is not more tolerance in his world for understanding others who present their differing opinions. I do not fault anyone for this as we all struggle with this issue in one form or another. I simply am noting in my traveling this day that not only here in this forum but in this world among us are those who for reasons yet to be collectively understood contribute to violence predominating in society.

As I observed the interactions of young people hostility interacting over turf wars today at lunchtime in a public park I thought of a world where perhaps differences and conflicts would be less prevalent and the goal to gain insight into those we come in contact might be less threatening somehow and perchance more inclined to strive to find common denominators.

This of course is merely my thoughts which are simply conclusive of violent conditions in this world that I come in contact with daily where violence is the “norm” or the acceptable solution to “solve” the many differences that present throughout the day. I then thought of when defining a gorean framework my philosophy of non violence is naturally the premise which I work from in forming my foundational beliefs which dominate my every action by choice of what I deem as acceptable for myself and those I am entrusted with.

I chose to write the following, in part, with the motive to clarify a few points, reiterate others, and to address a few concerns that I have noticed which need to be effectively and openly addressed. To begin the topic of this thread “ What defines a gorean framework?” was presented with an intention of engaging in a fruitful discussion. While those who contributed are appreciated, it is evident that there is not a fruitful ongoing discussion as had been hoped. I made it quite clear through this thread of my intolerance of a gorean framework to include sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner. The topic “ What defines a gorean framework?” is obviously different for most. There may be similar guiding principles and such yet overall due to individuality there will be differences in defining a gorean framework.

However if or when a gorean framework is defined to include sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner that is when I will relentlessly speak out in a manner that will more than likely be met with opposition from those who condone sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner to be a part of a gorean framework.

I do not pretend to apologize for my position presented in this thread nor in my daily living. I presented this topic with a motive that is unrelated to theory and rather related to the practical application of daily living within a gorean framework. Perhaps this topic is unimportant to some. For some it might just well be very important. While others would rather sneer, rail, malign, hurl insults, present false identity assumptions while others would rather assert paranoid unexplained accusations with no tangible proof that violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner is not overall evident in a gorean framework. Or that when it is evident it is merely “consensual” and permitted.

Keeping in mind that the form of violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner is not something that consenting adults can make an informed decision around, as this sort of dynamic is prevalent of deceptive avoidance tactics which are not directed with all of the presenting facts that would prove it otherwise than mutually consensual if exposed for its fraudulent premise.

Further when it is found that violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner to be evident in a gorean framework then usually the opposition turns without good cause to be weighed in the balance with relativism. Clearly violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner is a concrete measurement that is assessed as such even when for statistical purposes.

Therefore the notion that a gorean framework that includes violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner is not something that lacks the potential to determine its nature. Instead it is easily determined by most who have either experienced and or witnessed such. There is no need for a statistician to provide empirical evidentiary facts before the common every day person on the street is able to define violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner. Having conducted such a study this is stated with fail safe tangible conclusive evidence.

Another issue that has come to my attention in reviewing the entries is a defensive attitude as a “ discussion strategy.” This attitude appears to be concentrating more on preventing an contrary opinion from gaining an advantage as though one is gaining a score for each word or opinion, idea, or fact put forward in the course of forming a discussion or argument that proposes violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner in gorean framework to be unacceptable.

As a professional writer and PhD professional that has worked in various collaborative efforts and independently to include the field of prevention or intervention of violence and among other social and psychological disorders and many manifestations thereof, I would argue that to propose that there is a level of responsibility for a female who is “dutifully serving her master in a gorean household” or any household to be inaccurate. Instead all any female can do who has survived such an environment is to look for the warning signs to prevent her from becoming involved in a situation where she is physically, emotionally and psychologically endangered again.

Furthermore as a professional IMO for another professional to doubt, minimize, redirect, or excuse the seriousness of the issue of violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner in a gorean framework to be acceptable is unethical and morally questionable at best.

As I stated in a prior entry in this thread on this topic herein below I reiterate as follows:

quote:

Zevar

IMO Undoubtedly manhood nor a gorean framework to be fully executable and functional regardless includes beating women for any reason, whipping them until they bleed and are marked with bruises and wounds, branding their skin, restraining or standing on them or any part of their body until they pass out from excruciating pain, forcing a woman to eat out a dog bowl or any other acts with animals, forcing them to service other men sexually, depriving them of their own financial earnings, refusing to allow them to speak to anyone outside of the household , controlling a woman’s mind to conform her thinking to only serve the sadistic distortions of her “gorean master“ etc., etc..

I have said what a gorean framework includes which I live, believe and espouse. Further I have proposed what a gorean framework is NOT regardless that in doing so lessons the possibilities of proving most feminist theories on manhood and gender violence to be erroneous.

The question remains: What defines a gorean framework ? Does it include violent sadistic behavior toward the women who are in the life a man to provide whatever is needed for the well-being of any woman who is dependent on a man?


Some might argue that perhaps this all comes down to merely societal anomalies. While others would relentlessly take a firm stand and argue for non-violence to be what is the acceptable overall premise when it comes to answering the question, “ What defines a gorean framework?“ regardless with no apology.

I wish you well and enough,
~Zevar~

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/3/2009 4:29:42 PM >

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/3/2009 5:38:44 PM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Zevar,
I may be wrong, but I think the problem you are having with this thread is that in the Gorean paradigm, each man must determine for himself how to live... each man makes his own choices, and accepts the consequences for those choices.   The overall idea, I believe, is that it is rather 'ungorean' to come up with a list of 'right' and 'wrong'.  Therefore to ask what 'defines' a gorean framework is really not possible... it can be done on an individual basis (and needs to be for each Free person must determine their own 'code' for themselves), but it is really not a group project.

I could be wrong, but I have a hunch that is where the issue lies.  You can be a thief and be gorean... and although many would say that it is, according to their own personal code, wrong to steal... they would not dictate a 'gorean framework' that tells everyone it is wrong to steal.

Again, I am not positive, but I am guessing that is perhaps the problem. 


~sgs


_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/3/2009 6:12:42 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 26040
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Furthermore as a professional IMO for another professional to doubt, minimize, redirect, or excuse the seriousness of the issue of violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner in a gorean framework to be acceptable is unethical and morally questionable at best.


greetings Master

since i have the feeling this is, more or less, aimed at myself, i will respond.

not only did i not doubt her statement, or any woman's statement who told me they were abused, i infact said that i often looked out for the warning signs, and even went against family values to protect two women who were not my blood family.

you spoke of violence and sadism... you never spoke of it being "progressively" violent. and that is another kettle of fish. but, i fall back on my statement at the time and say again.

quote:

a man and his slave

that phrase says to me he is a man in control, and she is a loving, willing participant to his will. when it turns abusive, he is no longer in control, and she is no longer willing. its just abuse, and no longer gorean. what is that point? there is no hard or fast rule. no defining line beyond the need for medical attention, and even then things can go wrong that neither party expected and its truly just an accident. that isnt the way it is in all cases, but, it does happen.


i cannot say at what point a relationship for another slave is abusive. only she can. nor can you, Master, say when my relationship is abusive, or when it isnt. even Master cannot say... only i can.. and it definitely is not. if a slave comes to me and says... i am being abused.. help... i have no doubt Master and i will open our doors and give whatever help we can, as i have done so before with another slave who i knew was being abused. but, again, until she asked for help, all i could do was be there for her.

and with that, i am done here, Master.

i thank you for the opportunity

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

No body dies a virgin... life fucks everyone.

RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

+20 Heresy Points - Hard earned!

Duchess of Dissent 1

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/3/2009 8:42:06 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

One thing I have found is that being Gorean is not all of this romanticized honor and doing great things. Don't get me wrong, I believe in honor and seek the company of those that have a similar set of principles, but it is living that makes us Gorean. Sorry Zevar, but I believe this topic and many of your posts to be overly analytical of a simplistic thing. I used to be right where you are now, and then I felt like all this philosophizing kind of defeated the purpose of some of the lessons I was learning, or I should say some of the Western morality I was unlearning.

What defines a Gorean framework? 1) Belief in personal sovereignty, and all that comes with it 2) Belief in natural stratification, based upon the merits of an individual combined with the biological truths of our species 3) Honesty about what we are, where we are, and where we are going. Beyond that I cannot find much that is a common Gorean morality that exists across all of the cultures and situations expressed in the series.

As far as the sadism and violence thing, I suggest that maybe if the sadism seems to be a problem, there are more severe psychological issues than sadism going on. Sadism is against non-consenting individuals is actually an expression of other psychological issues, so it is like saying the paint job on a car is bad when there is all this rust underneath.

That is all the time I have for this thread. I used to mentally masturbate a lot, but not so much anymore.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/4/2009 1:46:44 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

Greetings Master Zevar,
I may be wrong, but I think the problem you are having with this thread is that in the Gorean paradigm, each man must determine for himself how to live... each man makes his own choices, and accepts the consequences for those choices.   The overall idea, I believe, is that it is rather 'ungorean' to come up with a list of 'right' and 'wrong'.  Therefore to ask what 'defines' a gorean framework is really not possible... it can be done on an individual basis (and needs to be for each Free person must determine their own 'code' for themselves), but it is really not a group project.

I could be wrong, but I have a hunch that is where the issue lies.  You can be a thief and be gorean... and although many would say that it is, according to their own personal code, wrong to steal... they would not dictate a 'gorean framework' that tells everyone it is wrong to steal.

Again, I am not positive, but I am guessing that is perhaps the problem. 


~sgs


Greetings ~sgs:

I do agree with the fact that the majority of “gorean men” do not claim to base their morality in an absolute “right or wrong.” Therefore other men are thus the “authority” in defining what is his moral code when it pertains to the question: “What defines a gorean framework?” and overall.

What man, gorean or not defines what is “right or wrong” for him based on an absolute morality? Rare men/man indeed who would take a stand for a morality that excludes sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner to be anywhere evident in answering “What defines a gorean framework?”

Unambiguous or not and in spite of the backlash that comes with opposition when a subject matter is preferred to be denied. Facts are facts. Sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner cannot be successfully corrupted to conform to “another morality” that will be acceptable among the majority of society, which includes setting a man who commits Sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner apart and above the Law of the Land, etc..

A code of morality as in way of behaving or a set of written rules concerning acceptable standards of behavior, i.e. or as in a moral code of what is socially allowed among men in positions of authority here on Earth, will not be relegated or denounced from the expected accountability to hold those who commit acts of sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner fully responsible and accountable for their choices and thus actions.

Worse for some men to encounter are the men of Earth who get paid to be analytical with their formidable skills and who have a socially moral obligation to all of society to assure that when a man who commits acts of sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner, that these men aren’t allowed to “talk themselves out of their consequences” when proven to have violated a moral or rather moreover legal code. These analytical men with formidable skills are also on a collectively agreed level required as authorities who are duly entrusted with legitimate control and influence over people to enforce what is right and what is wrong. Gorean framework or not. Facts are facts. Right is right and Wrong is wrong from a completely unequivocal standpoint that is not capable of being viewed as partial or relative, yet fixed.

Thus the question: “What defines a gorean framework?” indeed does have a clearly working definition, that is among the men I associate with, form friendships with, professionally interact with and sharpen one another, man to man regardless of the men who contradict and argue against the truth or the moral correctness of disallowing a gorean framework to include sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner.

Nobody ever said manhood would be without opposition nor undivided among some men. None the less violence in any form, gorean framework or not, is never acceptable, indisputably so.

Thank you for your comments.

I wish you most well and enough,
~Zevar~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/7/2009 3:08:40 PM   
AnthaofTabor


Posts: 20
Status: offline 		Tal Zevar,

Although I have not had the time to reply in full to this thread yet, I have enjoyed reading it very much. As always your discussions are most thought provoking and enjoyable.

I wish you well

Antha

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/7/2009 6:17:22 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		Tal, Zevar

I just read your most recent post to this thread... and besides the fact that you seem to be obsessed with four syllable words, and "phrases" such as "sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner", I'm somewhat confused about what you were actually trying to say....

I mean, your first paragraph..
."I do agree with the fact that the majority of “gorean men” do not claim to base their morality in an absolute “right or wrong.” Therefore other men are thus the “authority” in defining what is his moral code when it pertains to the question: “What defines a gorean framework?” and overall."

Are you saying that if *I* don't have a specific list of what is right or wrong that I'm willing to share with you.... that you and others have some sort of authority over my actions by... your collective approval or disapproval?  That strikes me as a huge leap to some sort of erroneous conclusion.  I am going to do, what *I* feel is right, in any given situation. The rest of y'all can deal with it, or bring your swords. "the swords of others" only has meaning if nameless others chose to employ them.

The next three paragraphs... are a whole lot of the phrase "sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner" which... seems to be intended to lull the reader into some sort of stupor...

Followed with the... *assumption* that...
“What defines a gorean framework?” indeed does have a clearly working definition, that is among the men I associate with, form friendships with, professionally interact with and sharpen one another, man to man regardless of the men who contradict and argue against the truth or the moral correctness of disallowing a gorean framework to include sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner.

Damn... there's that "phrase" again

What I would really like to see, is a statement on the Gorean Philosophy, or Gorean Morality, or... a Gorean framework that wasn't somehow contingent on who is having sex with who... and the nature of their relationship...  Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that sex isn't important... or pleasurable.  but... I'm a normal human male (I think) and even 3 times a day, would only account for... about 4 out of 24 hours....(including the nap afterward), what the fuck do Goreans do with the other 20 hours? How do they... work, what do they eat, what do they do in their leisure time?  Surely they don't indulge themselves in "sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner". That sounds like a lot of work, that would quickly become boring...

I wish you well
Unbuilder


_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/7/2009 10:18:53 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnthaofTabor

Tal Zevar,

Although I have not had the time to reply in full to this thread yet, I have enjoyed reading it very much. As always your discussions are most thought provoking and enjoyable.

I wish you well

Antha



Tal Antha:

In acknowledgement of your entry, it indeed is important to have taken this moment in my response toward you for your most respectful comments.

I wish the both of you most well and enough,
~Zevar~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to AnthaofTabor)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/7/2009 10:27:08 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline 		Greetings Unbuilder:

You might consider reading my original entry in this thread. [ http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2729828 ] Therein I proposed a set of questions to be answered in part or wholly.

quote:

I am presenting the following for discussion. I welcome discussion about any or all of the following questions.

1} What defines a gorean framework?

2} Is a gorean framework something that is defined individually for those who are Free or is it defined in another manner and if so how and by whom?

3} How does a gorean framework become integrated into the daily life of the Household of the Free?

4} What about or rather within a gorean framework separates from a non-gorean framework?

5} What role does gorean morality have to do with defining a gorean framework?

6} How does the a defined gorean framework lends itself to the welfare of society?

7} What contributing factors of defined gorean framework contribute to the daily living as a gorean?


Reviewing the above quoted set of proposed questions would be a starting point if of course you have a viewpoint on “ What defines a gorean framework?” for yourself and are sincere about presenting such for a fruitful dialogue.

Undoubtedly if you choose to outline your personal viewpoint in answering any or all of the proposed questions then perchance this might instill or rather generate further discussion between us.

If you choose to review the included link http://www.millon.net/taxonomy/sadistic.htm and are inclined to further a discussion with reference toward how this link contributes to what has been proposed in this thread in reference to “sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner“ then I would consider further dialogue between us on the specifics as they are interrelated.

However if you simply choose to resort to provocative degenerating tactics as witnessed in your recent entry [ http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2747990 ] then naturally there will be no further discussion. Clearly this thread was intended to generate a fruitful discussion. Nothing less!

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/7/2009 10:43:49 PM >

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to Unbuilder)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 5:21:00 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Zevar,

If only your OP is to be discussed, and none of your other posts, then what is the point of discussion? Some of your following posts stray into areas and seem to better define what you are looking for. If you are wondering why some may not be engaging you in discussion, it is because you do not seem to want to have a discussion, but more of a class exercise with you as the teacher. Just an observation.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 7:38:12 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline 		FR~

In regards to the topic “ What defines a gorean framework?” it remains to be partly unanswered within this setting i.e. forum where the topic was presented for a fruitful discussion. Presenting the topic among those who practice “sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner“ to be an allowed element in their definition of a gorean framework decreases the percentile of engaging in a fruitful discussion that is exchanged rationally one to the other among those who condone such practices with those who do not condone “sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner” in a gorean framework.

Clearly in a rational discussion there is a definite focus to adhere to in order to reach the goal of the discussion that is in accordance with reason and logic and presented or understandable in terms that accord with reason and logic or with scientific knowledge. Thus would lack antagonistic insults or demeaning comments in order to reach the goal of a rational discussion.

Therefore when what is presented in reply that is worthy of engaging in a discussion which reflects such components as defined herein the notion of reluctance toward a discussion would be non-evident.

As was noted in the original entry of this thread I reiterate the following for a discussion in part or wholly:

quote:

Orginal Zevar
I am presenting the following for discussion. I welcome discussion about any or all of the following questions.

1} What defines a gorean framework?

2} Is a gorean framework something that is defined individually for those who are Free or is it defined in another manner and if so how and by whom?

3} How does a gorean framework become integrated into the daily life of the Household of the Free?

4} What about or rather within a gorean framework separates from a non-gorean framework?

5} What role does gorean morality have to do with defining a gorean framework?

6} How does the a defined gorean framework lends itself to the welfare of society?

7} What contributing factors of defined gorean framework contribute to the daily living as a gorean?


In closing:

If there are comments, contributions or an analysis presented that remains focused and centered on the content that this thread as it originated from then a discussion would hopefully be forthcoming.

However if antagonistic off topic remarks continue to be presented there is no substantial reason to engage any further with anyone who chooses a method that fosters deterrent motives. Rationally speaking those who lend their reply with limiting adversarial remarks do nothing to advance the original motive of this thread. Instead logically speaking the topic of this thread is further marginalized toward derailment or rather relegation when adversarial remarks are chosen as a consistent method of reply.

Note: I do thank those who did contribute in a non-adversarial manner. That being greatly appreciated and was worthy of exchanging one to another. The motive behind the presentation of this thread remains to be with the goal to assert this thread in the original form for a fruitful discussion. Nothing less.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~





< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/8/2009 7:39:50 AM >

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 8:15:56 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		By "framework" do you mean 1)philosophical imperatives....2)moral principles/rules....3)ethical guidelines?

Each of these are, of course, going to be different. It would be helpful to engender further discussion if there was some clarity regarding the terms you are using.

~K

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 9:24:32 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Ya know, I agree with Kimveri on this.

My first thought from the beginning of this thread was "Why does there have to be a Gorean framework?"

If there is one, it would be Codes, but not the way you are presenting it. They are principles, not tightly designed straightjackets. This is the point of principles, to serve as a compass when things are not clear and neatly defined.

I understand the human need to box everything simply, but life just isn't that way. Nor are people. Nor is society. And if anything is bottom line Gorean, it's taking a long, deep, hard, analytical look at that life, those people, that society, and our roles and actions in the order of nature.

Would someone ask "So what defines the framework of nature?"

Live. Just live. Fully and fiercely, honestly and purposefully.

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 10:15:27 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 26040
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

FR~

In regards to the topic “ What defines a gorean framework?” it remains to be partly unanswered within this setting i.e. forum where the topic was presented for a fruitful discussion. Presenting the topic among those who practice “sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner“ to be an allowed element in their definition of a gorean framework decreases the percentile of engaging in a fruitful discussion that is exchanged rationally one to the other among those who condone such practices with those who do not condone “sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner” in a gorean framework.

Clearly in a rational discussion there is a definite focus to adhere to in order to reach the goal of the discussion that is in accordance with reason and logic and presented or understandable in terms that accord with reason and logic or with scientific knowledge. Thus would lack antagonistic insults or demeaning comments in order to reach the goal of a rational discussion.

Therefore when what is presented in reply that is worthy of engaging in a discussion which reflects such components as defined herein the notion of reluctance toward a discussion would be non-evident.

As was noted in the original entry of this thread I reiterate the following for a discussion in part or wholly:

quote:

Orginal Zevar
I am presenting the following for discussion. I welcome discussion about any or all of the following questions.

1} What defines a gorean framework?

2} Is a gorean framework something that is defined individually for those who are Free or is it defined in another manner and if so how and by whom?

3} How does a gorean framework become integrated into the daily life of the Household of the Free?

4} What about or rather within a gorean framework separates from a non-gorean framework?

5} What role does gorean morality have to do with defining a gorean framework?

6} How does the a defined gorean framework lends itself to the welfare of society?

7} What contributing factors of defined gorean framework contribute to the daily living as a gorean?


In closing:

If there are comments, contributions or an analysis presented that remains focused and centered on the content that this thread as it originated from then a discussion would hopefully be forthcoming.

However if antagonistic off topic remarks continue to be presented there is no substantial reason to engage any further with anyone who chooses a method that fosters deterrent motives. Rationally speaking those who lend their reply with limiting adversarial remarks do nothing to advance the original motive of this thread. Instead logically speaking the topic of this thread is further marginalized toward derailment or rather relegation when adversarial remarks are chosen as a consistent method of reply.

Note: I do thank those who did contribute in a non-adversarial manner. That being greatly appreciated and was worthy of exchanging one to another. The motive behind the presentation of this thread remains to be with the goal to assert this thread in the original form for a fruitful discussion. Nothing less.

I wish you well,
~Zevar~






Greetings Master Zevar

Your change from...

quote:

If what is defined in a “gorean framework” that includes “sadistic violence” and is considered perfectly “legally” allowed toward women then why don’t these men who practice sadistic violence who claim to be men of “Truth and Honor” go in the public eye and act out this so called “sadistic violence” and then explain it away or better yet tell the public that this woman that just got pounced on like she is an animal and has passed out from the excruciating pain that she is “human property” and for the public and Law Enforcement to just go about there way ?

In more instances than not those who practice what is termed “sadistic violence” in many clinical studies have proven to have what is defined as a rigid denial system therefore are prone to what is clinically termed “sociopathic personality disorder.” http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/antisocial-personality-disorder/ds00829


to ....
quote:

I made it quite clear through this thread of my intolerance of a gorean framework to include sadistic violence and sadism that turns violent in a progressive manner


... left me a bit confused. That isnt how you presented the example, and then it changed. im still wondering where the lines are drawn between normal and kinky, sadistic but stable, and sadistic but progressivly violent.

well wishes

tazzy

_____________________________

No body dies a virgin... life fucks everyone.

RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11

"There are no atheists getting blowjobs" ~Master Ron

+20 Heresy Points - Hard earned!

Duchess of Dissent 1

(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 11:06:36 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline 		~K

In general, a framework is usually about existence: concerned with independent objective existence or conceptual structure intended to serve as a support or guide for the forming of something that expands the structure into something useful, purposeful and of value philosophically, morally and ethically speaking.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2733353

In closing:

Perhaps you might consider answering the points you proposed if you are really serious about having a fruitful discussion and not just replying with assertions found to be meaningless calculated depraved remarks designed to result in mental and moral deficiency on your behalf.
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2748772

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 11:20:36 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline 		Greetings tazzy:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2737365

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=2741779

I strongly suggest you adhere to the assertion you made regarding any further entries toward this thread as follows:

quote:

and with that, i am done here, Master.

i thank you for the opportunity

well wishes

tazzy


I wish you well,
~Zevar~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 11:43:08 AM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline 		Greetings Orion:

On 8/3/2009 8:42:06 PM you posted the first quoted entry:

quote:

8/3/2009 8:42:06 PM -- That is all the time I have for this thread. I used to mentally masturbate a lot, but not so much anymore.
Live well,
Orion


then on 8/8/2009 5:21:00 AM you posted the next quoted entry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf----8/8/2009 5:21:00 AM

Zevar,

If only your OP is to be discussed, and none of your other posts, then what is the point of discussion? Some of your following posts stray into areas and seem to better define what you are looking for. If you are wondering why some may not be engaging you in discussion, it is because you do not seem to want to have a discussion, but more of a class exercise with you as the teacher. Just an observation.

Live well,
Orion


In reading each posted entry individually there is a clear change in your decision, thus in acting on your changed decision is this equated for you to "mentally masturbate" as you said in posting after having claimed you had no more time for this thread and asserted if you did so it would be mental masturbation?

Just an observation. I am sure you can understand offering an observation, correct?

I wish you well,
~Zevar~

_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
Irish proverb

House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 11:49:48 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Zevar why don't you stop being a dictating ass, as if you were some strict college professor and allow the discussion to flow. The attitude you portray in some of your threads, at least makes me take them less seriously and it looks like you are just trotting out "look how I have the answer to being Gorean.".

quote:


In regards to the topic “ What defines a gorean framework?” it remains to be partly unanswered within this setting i.e. forum where the topic was presented for a fruitful discussion.


This statement appears that unless you determine it to be fruitful, and by your dictates, then it should not be discussed. Sorry dude but you can have your little mental circle jerk, trying to dictate how the discussion should go if you like. I prefer open dialogue, and no box for thought.

Several posters here, including me, are having difficulty undertanding where you are going with this. All of us have been involved in philosophical discussions before, but the way you present it and comment on it, you seem to want us to give you the answer you already have. You seem to be forcing a concensus, which is bullshit as far as being Gorean.

You want to wrap things up in a nice little box, and say anything outside the box does not belong in a Gorean Morality. Well that may work for some slaves, or those with a slave morality, but you need to stop the dictating attitude if you want some Free to be involved.

Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: What defines a gorean framework? - 8/8/2009 11:53:22 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zevar

Greetings Orion:

On 8/3/2009 8:42:06 PM you posted the first quoted entry:

quote:

8/3/2009 8:42:06 PM -- That is all the time I have for this thread. I used to mentally masturbate a lot, but not so much anymore.
Live well,
Orion


then on 8/8/2009 5:21:00 AM you posted the next quoted entry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf----8/8/2009 5:21:00 AM

Zevar,

If only your OP is to be discussed, and none of your other posts, then what is the point of discussion? Some of your following posts stray into areas and seem to better define what you are looking for. If you are wondering why some may not be engaging you in discussion, it is because you do not seem to want to have a discussion, but more of a class exercise with you as the teacher. Just an observation.

Live well,
Orion


In reading each posted entry individually there is a clear change in your decision, thus in acting on your changed decision is this equated for you to "mentally masturbate" as you said in posting after having claimed you had no more time for this thread and asserted if you did so it would be mental masturbation?

Just an observation. I am sure you can understand offering an observation, correct?

I wish you well,
~Zevar~


Yeah i changed my mind, but I will leave you to trying to impress the slaves, as it does not seem to be impressing anyone else. The whole point her seems to be for you to try and impress people. Go for it, and more power to you.

That two by four up your ass seems to be getting in the way of fruitful discussion, if you had not noticed.

Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Zevar)
Profile   Post #: 60
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