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Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 7:56:22 AM   
Gromgor


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Status: offline 		It struck me earlier that the Gorean Philosophies and practices are similar to Taoism in that they are an inward and outward examination of self and surroundings and the interactions therein. With that principle in mind I am curious if any know of a movement to have a Gorean based religious/philosophy movement involving making into a legal entity the Gorean life. If L. Ron. Hubbard can make his books into a religion then a precedent has been set for modern day literature to be transformed and recognized and protected under the laws, given priveledges through those laws and afforded opportunities to set up meeting places (similar to churches) that were recognizable as such. 
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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 8:12:11 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15303
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No.

In fact, quite the opposite. The "Initiates" on Gor are clueless as the reality of their "Priest-Kings," who are an advanced species, not gods. An Initiate presuming to condemn a "blasphemer" to death is himself consumed in flame (via their technology). Initiates use "religion" to help placate the simplistic in the masses. It's a comment on the mentality of humanity.

At the beginning of Marauders, Ivar Forkbeard rather viciously murders a bishop, looting the church. He's the co-hero of the novel.

Gor in these respects is the opposite of Scientology. And Norman himself has no interest in Gor as a movement.

Taoism, remember, is not technically a religion either--there are no gods, just philosophies for living in accord with nature, with Tao. In this regard, yes, it's similar to Gor in terms of examining the order of nature, but just as there's no Taoist church on the corner, there's no such thing in Gor.

Gor doesn't even expound any specifically moralistic philosophy. Rather, a wide range of human behaviors, thinking, societies, philosophies, tendencies, qualities and instincts are explored.

So no, your conclusion doesn't follow, any more than the erroneous supposition some make that religion is a form of philosophy.

Live well,

Tim

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 8:54:01 AM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		 Tim's comments are spot on. There isn't any one single Gorean philosophy or code; there were many cultures and societies on Gor, living different lives according to different codes. What they had in common is the notion of a Natural Order that should be celebrated instead of suppressed.

Norman wrote the first of the books in the 1960's; they reflect the general anti-hero and anti-establishment stance of other books and movies of the era, which saw mainstream society as being false to the true, natural character of people. Converting this into a religion would exactly invert the basic theme.

And after even a cursory reading of these message boards, the notion of even a dozen Goreans reading from the same creed would be akin to getting cats to tap dance in unison.

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 9:18:42 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		G'morning, folks!

Hello, AnimusRex!

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
And after even a cursory reading of these message boards, the notion of even a dozen Goreans reading from the same creed would be akin to getting cats to tap dance in unison.


Ok, that's brilliant & vivid imagery! May I quote you, please?

Many thanks!

~Kimveri

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 10:10:23 AM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Shit. I'm going to regret this post.

What distinguishes a religion is that it makes claims about an ultimate "reality". Some religions (e.g. Christiantiy) say that the ultimate "reality" is that there's a diety (God) in charge of everything. Others (e.g. Buddhism) don't. Practioners of both, however, believe that they know the ultimate truth of what the fuck is really goin on. Neither really does, of course. It's not knowable, because we're limited to 5 senses, which are actually fairly narrow channels through which we get data about what the fuck is really going on. But followers of a religion devotedly act "as if" they know, and tend to ignore anything that might contradict what they "know". That's called "faith".

Faith can be useful, because if you think you know what the fuck is really goin on, and act as if you do, you behave somewhat more predictably and have similar outcomes to others who believe what you believe. That creates order, and order, for most folks, is more satisfactory than the lack thereof.

Ever hear someone say "science is my religion"? That's a sure sign they haven't grasped what science is, or what religion is. Science is driven forward by the implicit acknowledgement that we don't know, and can't know, what the fuck's goin on. So, science is all about perpetual investigation, and to some degree building better and better machines to augment our very limited senses and cognitave power so that we can try to get at at least a little better idea about what the fuck's goin on.

Are you getting the idea that people are somewhat obsessed with knowing (or at least thinking we know) what the fuck's goin on? It's because, ultimately, we do not like being slapped upside the head by what the fuck's goin on, and we'd like better and better control of it. It is the primary thing that distinguishes us from other species, who just accept that what the fuck is goin on is just what the fuck is goin on.

So what does this lengthy prolog have to do with the price 'o paga and the slut that comes with it? It's that some folks do treat Gor like a religion. They point to it as the ultimate truth of what the fuck's goin on. When you do that (or when you adopt any religion for that matter) it's kind of like getting off the bus that's headed toward figuring out what the fuck's goin on. You've reached your destination. You now firmly believe that you have found the ultimate truth about what the fuck's goin on.

You haven't. I haven't. Nobody has. So I'd encourage you not to treat Gor that way. The gift that Dr. John gave us was simply an invitation to consider another line of inquiry into what the fuck's goin on, rather than just going for the path of least resistance and accepting what "everybody knows". It's an inquiry that you will not live long enough to see the end of. The best that you can hope for is to prove or disprove it for yourself, and maybe share what you found out with your friends.

I would not support institutionalizing my way of life as a religion. I think it would encourage that which I would rather not encourage.



< Message edited by Leonidas -- 8/11/2009 10:12:31 AM >

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 10:17:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Tal Leonidas,

You might be interested in Robertson Davies' short essay A Few Kind Words for Superstition, which comes to much of the same conclusions for much of the same reasons (without the Gor part, of course).

Live well,

Tim

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 11:19:50 AM   
AnimusRex


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

When you ... [adopt any religion for that matter] ...it's kind of like getting off the bus that's headed toward figuring out what the fuck's goin on. You've reached your destination. You now firmly believe that you have found the ultimate truth about what the fuck's goin on.



Very good observation- even though I belong to an organized religion, one of the (many) criticisms I have is that religions do in fact tend to behave as though they have all the answers- that they have completely figured out the nature of the universe, things that are essentially unknowable. At best this is posturing, at worst it suppresses free thought and inquiry by "stopping the bus" and calling an end to the discussion. The moment Gor forms a creed and manifesto, is the moment it becomes a cult.

And hello Kimveri- a pleasure seeing You again. My comments are offered to be used freely, although there is no warranty expressed or implied as to their truth or wisdom.

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 12:15:10 PM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Shit. I'm going to regret this post.



Sure is nice to see I'm not the only one gifted with bloviation when addressing subjects that ignite ones passions.

quote:



I would not support institutionalizing my way of life as a religion. I think it would encourage that which I would rather not encourage.




Personally, I'd prefer you didn't encourage those that should be institutionalized! 

< Message edited by xBullx -- 8/11/2009 12:29:14 PM >

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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 1:19:42 PM   
Zevar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gromgor

It struck me earlier that the Gorean Philosophies and practices are similar to Taoism in that they are an inward and outward examination of self and surroundings and the interactions therein. With that principle in mind I am curious if any know of a movement to have a Gorean based religious/philosophy movement involving making into a legal entity the Gorean life. If L. Ron. Hubbard can make his books into a religion then a precedent has been set for modern day literature to be transformed and recognized and protected under the laws, given priveledges through those laws and afforded opportunities to set up meeting places (similar to churches) that were recognizable as such. 


Greetings Gromgor:

The following version of the story below was recalled in considering “Gor as a religious movement.”

St. Peter opened wide the pearly gates to heaven and entered a man of another earthly religion thought never to be accepted in heaven. Straightaway St. Peter took the man on a guided tour of heaven in all of its glory and splendor which included going room to room, or rather heavenly mansion to heavenly mansion to all of the eternal heavenly citizens.

During the tour there was a particular room within a heavenly mansion which had to be past by where St. Peter cautioned the man to be quiet upon approaching, St. Peter said.” Be quiet they might hear us. These are the people of Earth who only agreed on the topic of religion and philosophy with others who thought like they did while on Earth and they believe they are the only ones here in heaven.’

As the tour progressed St. Peter turned the corner and again he cautioned the man, “ Swoosh, quiet, these are the people of Earth that could never agree on philosophical or religious beliefs and they believe they are the only ones here in heaven.”

Finally the man asked St. Peter a question, “ How can everyone I have seen thus far believe they are the only ones here in heaven, I mean what does that say about my being here in heaven? St. Peter answered, “ Depends if you believe you too are the only one here in heaven, regardless what was believed or not on Earth.”

The moral of the story. IMO ---What we choose to believe we receive and what we receive we have chosen to believe. Rather philosophy and religion being personal to each and all who believes in either or both lends to the inquisitive thought of how could there ever be anything remotely close to “Gor as a religious movement” as the proverbial glass is half full to some while being half empty to others.

Organized religions of the world provide ample latitude and longitude for those who choose to live their life believing in the unknown, unseen and that which is believed to exist beyond humanity thus supreme.

I for one am not interested in anything organized religion has to offer that is “cult-like” as would “Gor as a religious movement” become if organized after the structure of and likened to most religions of the world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_of_the_world

Spirituality is a whole other subject and unrelated IMO to anything considered “gor/gorean” Or “Gor as a religious movement” but then this being a personal perspective is just that. What works for one might not work for another.

Besides who holds the golden key to the universal “truth” upon Earth? Stating the obvious. Sure isn’t me nor anyone else. I would not accept the position of determing "truth" for all even if I were guaranteed 7 beautiful virgins each month for an eternity at my sole discretionary pleasure and service.

Fact is I have lived long enough for all the proof needed for me to believe only that which I believe is believable based on fact and not fiction. Except when it comes to spiritual beliefs. Then all that can be relied on is a "personal spiritual experience" when it comes to spirituality. But then my personal beliefs in spirituality have nothing to do with organized religion or anything " cult-like" in any form, "Gor as a religious movement?" or not. IMO

I wish you well,
~Zevar~








< Message edited by Zevar -- 8/11/2009 2:01:25 PM >

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/11/2009 7:35:01 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings,

I view being or rather living Gorean to being the best you can be in your life and to hopefully set good examples to others to want to do the same.
I know the sounds very similar to a religion, but for me, it is more so about creating my life and what I want in it and what I do not want in it, as well as whom I want in it and the type of people I want to surround myself with.
Gor has very exact standards and they can seem very harsh to some, but for me those standards are what makes Gor and it's philos beautiful to me.

Just an fyi on only my opinion.
L.Ron Hubbard is an F-Tard...*smiles*

I wish you well,
Maahsatti


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Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/12/2009 12:20:41 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35812
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		In the old religions it was cast as man's struggle against nature, interacting time to time, or soliciting favor from god's of the sea, the thunder, the winter, the spring, life, and death............

The higher religions re-cast man's struggle against nature as man's struggle against HIS nature.........

If there is any coincedent points of religion it is only this:  men struggle against nature, readily accept theirs, and women struggle to regain their feminine nature, in Gor.

How's that?

Ron  

edited:  so there is no misunderstanding, that don't make it religion, since we all share the articles a, an, and the......there may be coincedental points of overlap. 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/12/2009 12:25:30 PM >

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 5:41:29 AM   
Gromgor


Posts: 13
Joined: 7/18/2009
Status: offline 		Hmm. It seems I was a tiny bit misunderstood, which I admit is understandable. The question was not meant to ask about a spiritual, ultimate truth'esque belief system. Rather the actions in regards to legal standing as a recognized religion/faith/belief system/philosophy.

A scenario had popped into my head of a small culture in some state that had a Gorean life. Many, many people, both men and women, that lived their many, many lives as Goreans, together. Perhaps it is easy to view that as a "cult" or "cult-like" but if so, what does that say about the individuals that all live individually the same way? Are they any less cult like? My real question is essentially, if a large body of Goreans was to amass and have their own practices and dictates of custom/interaction, would being classified as a religion (or potentially some other classification) be A) possible and B) worthwhile?

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 7:36:55 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

My real question is essentially, if a large body of Goreans was to amass and have their own practices and dictates of custom/interaction, would being classified as a religion (or potentially some other classification) be A) possible and B) worthwhile?


A) No.
B) No.
C) unlikely anyway
D) If a large group of hippies got together and lived together with their own practices/customs, would they be classified as a religion? Or an armed group of separatists in a compound? Would they? I don't think so. Why would Goreans?

Further, as has already been noted, Goreans tend to be pretty fiercely individual. We are hardly all of the same mind. You are still missing the role of any philosophy. Religion does not equal philosophy. Would a bunch of people who like the ideas of Sartre get together and form a religion? Or Plato? Or Hume? Philosophy questions and explores, supporting its tenets with reasoned arguments; religion accepts on faith. It's night and day.

I don't think you were misunderstood. I do think you don't understand. This is why, without reading the books, people can't understand--they will always try to apply what they do know to what they don't, and it doesn't work.

Tim



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/13/2009 7:44:28 AM >

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 9:53:18 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		I guess I'll stick my neck out here and say that i sincerely doubt anyone here would really want to live 'Gorean' anyways...   Who would be the first to place their laptop, ipod, or cellphone on the altar?   I am sure the smaller framed men would be less likely to toss their Smith & Wesson into the sea? 

Some of the mindset can be gained through reading, contemplating, understanding, and then attempting to apply what you can.  But as much as the man with his three potted cherry tomato plants on his back deck likes to think of himself as a farmer... 

~sgs

< Message edited by sweetgirlserves -- 8/13/2009 9:54:06 AM >

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 10:17:04 AM   
Dinnardin


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quote:

Would a bunch of people who like the ideas of Sartre get together and form a religion? Or Plato? Or Hume?


If it were Hume, would they be called Humans?

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 10:39:07 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

Would a bunch of people who like the ideas of Sartre get together and form a religion? Or Plato? Or Hume? 


No, but if they were pretentious enough they might form a salon.  And from there it's only a skip and a jump from knowing that the paradigm in which they view the world is the only rational one and that the sheeple/masses/populace/sinners/heathen/yes I'm mixing terms I'm doing it for a reason are all so unenlightened and the only question left is whether to try to teach them or let them rot.

Faith or philosophy there? All that's missing is a godhead, but if Scientology can become a religion (how the **** do you have a devil figure but not a godhead?  How does this make sense? Is it some sort of persecution fetish? Argh.) then I think the standard is lowered enough for any group of self important twits and twats to claim they've found The Way.

quote:

Philosophy questions and explores, supporting its tenets with reasoned arguments; religion accepts on faith. It's night and day.


I had planned to argue this out...but instead I'll just ask...

Was Augustine a theologian, or a philosopher?

XO,
Bella

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 8/13/2009 10:46:59 AM >

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 11:01:01 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Was Augustine a theologian, or a philosopher?


They are not mutually exclusive, of course, any more than all scientists must be religious or not.

People throw around terms loosely, ignoring that much of our language is metaphoric, citing it as if specific. To say "Science is my religion," for example, is metaphor, and while Scientologists can call themselves anything they wish, it's neither a science nor a religion in any true sense. Look, for example, at the many books and articles titled "The Science of _______" that have nothing at all to do with science as a discipline (in the sense scientists would use the term).

The problem again comes from those unable to separate the plot of fiction from its themes (as in sgs's post, and as in several silly criticisms that keep crossing this forum and probably always will).

There's also a sweeping assumption that people with similar interests would want to live together. Get together at times, talk, sure, but form a literal community? No thanks.

It is very difficult for many in our society to separate the importance of the process of examination from its conclusions. They want answers, and have tremendous difficulty understanding approaches based on principles and continuing exploration rather than pat answers.

Tim




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/13/2009 11:03:17 AM >

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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 11:14:57 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
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Status: offline 		Hi Tim,
I understand your inclination to point out my post as you did, but at the same time, I do believe there is some validity to it. It is nice to say, for example, that we believe in the idea/theme of self reliance... as long as we live in a world where we really don't have to totally rely on ourselves. 



~sgs


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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/13/2009 11:17:09 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Was Augustine a theologian, or a philosopher?


They are not mutually exclusive, of course, any more than all scientists must be religious or not.


I agree completely.

quote:

People throw around terms loosely, ignoring that much of our language is metaphor, citing it as if specific. To say "Science is my religion," for example, is metaphoric, and while Scientologists can call themselves anything they wish, it's neither a science nor a religion in any true sense.


Two complete agreements in a row...*checks for a full moon*

 
quote:

Look, for example, at the many books and articles titled "The Science of _______" that have nothing at all to do with science as a discipline (in the sense scientists would use the term).


Nods.  The Science of Astrology and The Science of Feng Shui comes to mind...not sure if they're real books but you get the point.  As neither uses the scientific method, it would be more apt to call them "the discipline of" or "the method of" but ironically enough, they use "science of" to make it sound more valid.

quote:

The problem again comes from those unable to separate the plot of fiction from its themes (as in sgs's post, and as in several silly criticisms that keep crossing this forum and probably always will).


I think a lot of that is willful ignorance.  Yes, the Gorean philosophy is a great way to live life, but how freaking cool is it to have a sword and chain your slave to the post of the bed and get a faux-rabbit-fur-dyed-leopard-print blanket to have sex on?  And it's hard for a lot of people to say "I like this unorthodox thing for my own reasons," so they say "it's part of the philosophy" to feel like they're supported in their choice.

quote:

There's also a sweeping assumption that people with similar interests would want to live together. Get together at times, talk, sure, but form a literal community? No thanks.


*grins*
Yeah, when you go to someone's house for drinks and talk, you know who the Ubar is.  He's the guy whose chairs you're sitting on and whose beer you're drinking.

A bunch of fierce individualists co-owning a plot of land seems to be a recipe for disaster.  Why ruin good friendships that way?

quote:

It is very difficult for many in our society to separate the importance of the process of examination from its conclusions. They want answers, and have tremendous difficulty understanding approaches based on principles and continuing exploration rather than pat answers.


Yes! Exactly!

IMO, comparing Sartre (or Locke, who I actually consider to be brilliant ) with the average philosophy student is no different than comparing Augustine with the average Catholic.

As far as the OP goes, I realize I haven't even answered that...all I'll say is Why?  Why form a Gorean religion?  If "protection from government prosecution and a way to avoid taxes" is the best reason, i think you miss the point of a religion.  And you probably miss the point of being Gorean too.


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RE: Gor as a religious movement? - 8/17/2009 2:51:57 PM   
Koa


Posts: 272
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Status: offline 		I don’t think the OP is asking to be Gorean. Yes, any group of people with the same idea who wish to form a religion, can. Goreans in the book have a religion taught by the Initiates, what that religion is, only John knows, and he did not care to much for the religion aspect of Gor. It is there, do they call it Goreanism? I don’t think so. Every time I think of a group of Goreans gathering together in one spot and living together like a colony, I think of the Amish. They are not a religion yet they do have one. If John were to come out and say this is the religion that Goreans practice. I’m sure in his books not every Gorean went, cared, or felt the same way. Those same feelings would apply here and just because there is a religion practiced by the masses, it would not make them any less Gorean; likewise, or make us any less American, German, English, Mexican or Human for that matter. So, yes, you could start a religion on/about/around Apple Pie and Ice Cream. If there is going to be pie there, sign me up.

Koa Bosk.

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...but to take truth for granted is not to know it. Truth not won is not possessed. We are not entitled to truths for which we have not fought.
(Marauders, p.7)

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