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RE: Dying well - 9/5/2009 8:12:11 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I find that on the whole, the aged and otherwise infirm are quite at peace and willingly throw in the towel. Like my dad, my mom, my grandmother, my great aunt, my great uncle, ad infinitum.

The reasoning kinda like:

Smoked every cigarette there was, not missing nothing there.
Drank every drop of booze there was, not missing nothing there.
Fucked every girl there was, Sheila was best at blowjobs, her sister Rachel loved to take it up the ass...............
Loved and fought and fucked and laughed and cried........

Many have been quite ready to go into the great unknown.

Ron





_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 1:44:10 AM   
charlesdavis53


Posts: 1
Joined: 1/2/2009
Status: offline 		No-one has talked about the cause !
For me my life has to have meaning, so i want to die as a result of ridding the world of a particularly nasty person, or taking on an unjust state.
" Sancho, bring me my horse !" ( How many of you get that reference ?)
The manner of my passing ? well thats to do with sword in hand, and lamentation of friends, women, partners, slaves, people i have touched, works for me...
Where do i get planted ? easy.... in my own woods where my atoms can be recycled into trees, flowers, fruit and others can wander knowing that I am still there

(in reply to Mitzie)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 11:42:56 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

As a Transhumanist and an Immortalist, death of any kind would be a defeat, and I am tempted to say there are no good death. But then, that is not completely accurate.

I have an old grand aunt of soon 91 years of age. She have a bit of a weak heart, but is otherwise mostly healthy. She have a cabin by a lake near where my mother lives and every summer my grand aunt go to her cabin and spend the summer there. Now after she had her heart attack her son was very worried and did not want her to go, and truth to be told we are all a little worried about her up in her cabin by herself. But it is what she love. Sure there is a chance that she have another heart attack and alone in a cabin she will not make it, while she might have pulled through if at home closer to doctors and hospitals. But as my mother says, for my grand aunt. It will be better to live as she love and then drop dead, then to squeeze more years out of life where she can not enjoy herself. If my grand aunt dies at her cabin, then that would have been a good death. Off course we all hope my grand aunt will live for many years to come. And healthy as she is there is a good chance she will. But she takes a risk going to her cabin, and it is a risk she is willing to take to do what she love.

I think a death where you die doing what is meaningful to you, and where you die with dignity, and die as you have lived, if you are proud of your life, then that is a good death. And yes I think that is a part of the Gorean philosophy to.

Though for me, the goal is to not die at all.

Be Well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 11:52:29 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Okay, i am curious as i see it in this thread a couple times-- what does dying with dignity mean to most people? And why should someone attempt to die with dignity and what does that mean?

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 4:40:04 PM   
Louve00


Posts: 1526
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		Well, you first have to consider what dignity is and what it means to you. One of the definitions of dignity from Webster's is:  1 : the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed.  I would think, anyone who respected themselves, loved and lived a good life, tried to live the right way and had meaningful relationships could say they had "dignity".  I would also think dying with dignity (for anyone who lived that way) would be a high hope if not an expectation.

Nephandi said it best when she said, "I think a death where you die doing what is meaningful to you, and where you die with dignity, and die as you have lived, if you are proud of your life, then that is a good death."  I think that is dying with dignity.

As far as the why goes...it really has to do with what the person is made of.  If a person lived with no dignity, I doubt he would die with it.  If it matters to him or her that they die with dignity, then they better start changing their life.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 9/8/2009 4:41:09 PM >

_____________________________

For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 5:50:33 PM   
yummee


Posts: 96
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Okay, i am curious as i see it in this thread a couple times-- what does dying with dignity mean to most people? And why should someone attempt to die with dignity and what does that mean?


Good afternoon Free and property
Hi Barelynangel :)

I never *got* dignity.  If there's a chance I can get out of it by begging, crying, sexual service, etc., you can bet I'll be trying that route rather than the dignity route.  To me, dying with dignity would just mean the one in the process of dying wasn't begging, bargaining, kicking, screaming and crying like a little girl.  I'll be the one begging and trying to get out of it if at all possible.  I intend to live forever.  So far, so good.

Respectfully,

amy


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 6:31:48 PM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings yummee

Sounds good, yet when all that begging, bargaining, kicking, screaming, crying, and fucking is all said and done, you're still going to die. Intending to live forever might be nice but it doesn't get anyone out of the hot seat. Everyone dies.


Warm wishes,
~twinkle




_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to yummee)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 7:24:51 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline 		twink....

He who dies with the most toys......still dies.

John,. AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Hiskajirah)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 10:09:03 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

:--"Ripe is my age, short is my life, leaving you I shall go. I have made myself my refuge. Be diligent, mindful and extremely virtuous. With thoughts collected guard your mind. In this doctrine and discipline by living strenuously, you will escape the cycle of rebirth and put an end to suffering."
 
Having successfully completed this noble mission in his eightieth year, he retired to Kusinara, an insignificant hamlet, and lying on a couch between two saIa trees, passed away in a peaceful state of mind 2527 years ago.
He was born, as an extraordinary man he lived, and as a Buddha he passed away. Buddha was not a God nor a God's prophet.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/parinibn.htm



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Hiskajirah)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Dying well - 9/8/2009 10:35:30 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		Hey, Mitzie.

I am intimately familiar with terminal illness and the associated issues. As you may or may not remember, I was there when my mother reaffirmed her decision to terminate life support upon waking from her coma. I buried her myself, and performed a funeral rite as a lay priest. And I was one of those who discussed her preferences with her between the two first rounds of chemo.

As such, the matter is not just theoretical to me.

Dismissing out of hand the legitimate decision that some make (that they would rather die as a consequence of their own actions during the course of pursuing a "victory or death" aesthetic, instead of allowing things to run their course and taking the safe bet on a reasonably well known amount of time to make the best out of in relative comfort), however, is a thing I simply cannot consider particularly respectful.

As I said elsewhere in the thread, by my aesthetic, dying well is dying on your own terms.

Whether those terms are taking the time one has left and letting the illness run its course, to end it before its time, or even to fight when there is no realistic chance of victory (an act of defiance, a Gorean virtue, I would argue), I still hold that to die on one's own terms is the measure of dying well for someone with terminal cancer. To give up and resigning oneself to what is to come, rather than making a conscious decision, however, is not- IMO- dying on one's own terms. And, really, resignation does not strike me as a particularly Gorean virtue.

Marauders has some commentary on resignation that you might wish to review.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 7:04:06 AM   
Acer49


Posts: 1434
Joined: 8/7/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace


Good morning to the Free, the slaves, and the searching -

Philosophies and religions are not just for living by, necessarily. They are also for dying by.

We've all heard the phrases and observations, "died well", "died with his boots on", "died with dignity", "died screaming", "died poorly", "went out in a blaze of glory", and more like them. We talk a lot here about living as a Gorean. I'd like to ask you folks what it means to you, as a Gorean, to "die well".

Happy Tuesday -
Gracie


Well Miss, I believe dying is a universal and whatever definitions you apply are valid for all of mankind, regardless of one's lifestyle choices




_____________________________

Never be bullied into silence. Never allow yourself to be made a victim. Accept no one's definition of your life; define yourself.
Harvey Fierstein

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 8:12:42 AM   
lusciouslips19


Posts: 9788
Joined: 9/8/2007
Status: offline 		Having to face terminal illness with my mother who is slowly becoming a prisoner of her own body that will eventually shut down, I think dying well is leaving nothing unsaid to your loved ones and making amends with those who you have had stife with. Leaving behind a legacy of love and compassion.

Dying can be done well, I am just not sure of how I am going to deal with the after. i am certainly having trouble with the process.

_____________________________

Original Pimpette,
Keeper of Original Home Flag and Fire of Mr. Lance Hughes
Charter member of Lance's Fag Hags,
Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

(in reply to Acer49)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 8:58:39 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7085
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline 		~Fr~

I have watched this thread with curiosity as the answers from others continue to be added. I admit to being very confused by some of the answers that have been left. Perhaps it is simply because I read the original post/question wrong.

Even though I can not lay claim to the label of Gorean ( for several reasons ), I would still like to think that I understood the basic question that was asked. "What does it mean, as a Gorean, to die well?'

I am confused though because many of those who answered did not really answer the question posed.
There were many who talked about watching others die ( which, I can understand, because I too, have sat and watched most my family pass away from illness ). There were some who tried to 'inact a scenario of their last days' and responded on how they would wish them to be. My own answer was that there be no regrets when I passed.

I guess I am confused because, even counting my own answer...I have not really seen anyone answer the question that Miss Grace placed before us.

"What does it mean, as a GOREAN, to die well?"

Thinking about it, I can not answer the question effectively because well, I am not Gorean. Yet, I feel that the answers from Goreans would not vary far from those who are not. I am curious though,and hope that at least one finds it within themselves to give an answer that reflects how a Gorean would look at death; for themselves, not for others.

I could apologize for being so upfront and rude about how I posted this; but I won't. I really am curious and want to know. I only have what was told to me by my late husband; and that was in regards to his own impending death, not my reaction to it.

Curiosity sometimes, is not a good thing.

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 9:37:58 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hiya irishmist,

I suppose my previous post could have been left at the first sentence "However I die, I hope that it is in accordance with how I have lived and the beliefs (non-religious) that I hold dear.". This to me means that death is a part of nature, so it cannot be denied. I hope to be strong when facing it, following the code I have lived by, and knowing that those around me are happy, and I have led them well.

This is my Gorean meaning to dying well.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 10:20:04 AM   
yummee


Posts: 96
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hiskajirah

Greetings yummee

Sounds good, yet when all that begging, bargaining, kicking, screaming, crying, and fucking is all said and done, you're still going to die. Intending to live forever might be nice but it doesn't get anyone out of the hot seat. Everyone dies.


Warm wishes,
~twinkle


Good morning Free and property,
Hi Hiskajirah :)

I'm in trouble then.  Living forever is kind of an inside joke in this house.  Every time death is discussed, I've been told I'm not allowed to die on him.  So, if I die, he's going to kill me, lol. ;)

Respectfully,

amy


(in reply to Hiskajirah)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 10:23:41 AM   
yummee


Posts: 96
Joined: 5/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lusciouslips19

Having to face terminal illness with my mother who is slowly becoming a prisoner of her own body that will eventually shut down, I think dying well is leaving nothing unsaid to your loved ones and making amends with those who you have had stife with. Leaving behind a legacy of love and compassion.

Dying can be done well, I am just not sure of how I am going to deal with the after. i am certainly having trouble with the process.


Greetings Free and property,
Hi Lusciouslips19 :)

I just wanted to cyberhug you.  The process is difficult and painful.  My hope is that you two have enough time to say it all to each other and that you both will find peace and comfort at the end.

Respectfully,

amy


(in reply to lusciouslips19)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 10:41:24 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		To me, there is much to be said regarding the statement -- live like you were dying.  To me, people are not dying they are living, therefore, until they are dead they are in fact living.   So to me, a Gorean's dying shouldn't be much different than a Gorean's living.  To me, if you state -- i am dying then that's what you are doing -- however, if you say you are living, to me, that is what you are doing and you do so within the parameters you have always had for yourself.

Someone once said, you are dying from the moment you are born.  But people do not call it dying they call it living, therefore to me, a Gorean will be living until such time he is no longer.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to yummee)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 10:46:27 AM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline 		There is an old saying that extreme good health, is merely the slowest way to die.

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 10:48:44 AM   
sweetgirlserves


Posts: 255
Joined: 4/14/2009
Status: offline 		I think there are some ways to not die so well.

For example, to die of lung cancer because you were never able to conquer your smoking addiction... to me that is not dying well.

To die of illnesses associated with drugs, drinking, smoking, etc... is not dying well.   Those were all things you could have gained control over and didn't, and therefore you die as its victim.  Slave to the substance.

~sgs

_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 10:51:54 AM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7085
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

I think there are some ways to not die so well.

For example, to die of lung cancer because you were never able to conquer your smoking addiction... to me that is not dying well.

To die of illnesses associated with drugs, drinking, smoking, etc... is not dying well.   Those were all things you could have gained control over and didn't, and therefore you die as its victim.  Slave to the substance.

~sgs

I understand what you are saying here, but, this is all a personal perspective of others. How can you know what they are thinking, or why they are thinking the way they are?

I can even understand if you were to say 'If I was on drugs, and dying, then dying well meant ________________ ( insert your own words here )' ...this, then, would be YOUR own perspective of your own death.

mist

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





(in reply to sweetgirlserves)
Profile   Post #: 60
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