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RE: Dying well


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RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 10:54:43 AM   
myltldrkhrt


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i think when your time is up, no matter, you have no control on when or how you die.it is inevitable like taxes,time...

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RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 11:09:52 AM   
sweetgirlserves


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Hi IrishMist,

It is my personal perspective on myself, and on others.  I watched my big strong grandfather die a terrible death at age  62 from lung cancer, from his 4-pack-a-day habit.   I didn't look at his death as 'dying well' at all then, and I still don't.  

The only thing that I can say, is that his generation didn't really know what they were getting into.  But those of since his generation certainly do know, so to start smoking is like begging to be made a slave to nicotine.  At some point, you decided to beg its collar.   Not breaking free of that, one way or another, and ending up ultimately being it's slave/victim at death.   There is nothing terribly 'Gorean' about that, imo.

Same holds true for alcohol and drugs.

~sgs

< Message edited by sweetgirlserves -- 9/9/2009 11:11:43 AM >


_____________________________

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." ~Maya Angelou

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RE: Dying well - 9/9/2009 4:23:05 PM   
lusciouslips19


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I think this Mark Twain quote (my favorite) says it all....

Dance like nobody's watching; love like you've never been hurt. Sing like nobody's listening; live like it's heaven on earth.

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Member of the Subbie Mafia
Princess of typos and it's my prerogative

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RE: Dying well - 9/10/2009 5:36:59 AM   
nephandi


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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

quote:

i think when your time is up, no matter, you have no control on when or how you die.it is inevitable like taxes,time...


I disagree. I do not think we have a set amount of time measured out to us before we are born. The belief in such a magical number have a tendency to make pepole passive. If I die then I die and it is just my time, that is just another way to not take responsibility. You have allot of control over how and when you die, you just do not have total control. Bering careful, learning to defend one self, trying to stay healthy, all these are ways to take control over one's life. And generally, those that say fuck this, I am going to live no matter what have a greater chance to live through a disaster or illness than those that sit on their butts and say oh it must be my time.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Dying well - 9/10/2009 8:50:44 AM   
amelliagrace


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FR-

August is the anniversary month of the four deaths which have most greatly impacted and influenced my life. They are but three of many August deaths which have touched my life. Children, well aged folks, middle aged. Accidents, illnesses, and simple "equipment failure" resulting from long and thourough use. This August also found me watching a brave and lovely soul cross over to that mysterious place we all speculate about, but which none of us has seen or experienced.

Too, I've been waging war with the inevitable wear and tear that affects our human chasis...and the insurance company. All of it together had me remembering, and thinking, and doing self examination ( a never ending process and adventure). Many of you have touched upon things which have crossed my own mind and heart in recent weeks. My deep thanks to each and every one of you for your thoughtful posts.

I believe it was angel who commented on "living like you were dying" - a point I'm glad someone brought up. While my dad lived 10 years longer than anyone believed possible, he crammed a lifetime into those years. "I'm not going to die until I'm dead.", precious words that I endeavor to take to heart and life, every day. I'm not nearly so proficient at it as dad was, but I'm improving, I think.

Aswad speaking of dying on ones own terms is a welcome reminder to me, as I live my life. I do not control all the twists and turns of the road, or what crops up along the way. I do control my own choices, and how I respond to the people and happenings which cross my life path.

Luscious' comments about not leaving things unsaid is a sentiment I, too, hold dear. When one of my most cherished relations died suddenly (he litterally dropped dead, in the space of about 90 seconds), his wife was able to speak one last "I love you. Look for me, I'll catch up one day." Doing so made a huge difference for her, but not so huge as the fact that he'd left nothing important unsaid to her. Nothing. On any subject.

I pretty much want to die as I live, and live in such a manner that when I die, I'll have done so in a way harmonious with the codes and belifs I cherish and strive to live by. Reading in this thread has reinforced my conviction that it is impossible to seperate the attitudes with which we live and die.

As to the Gorean aspect...
From what I've read in the books, heard from the lips of Goreans, and seen in their lives, acceptance and defiance are both essential ingredients, right along with the mettle to take long, probing, unvarnished looks at self. Gorean or not, that seems to square with my current mantra for relationships, "No guilt, no games, and no regrets."

I hope this thread will continue for a while. It has provided food for thought, and touched on some interesting points. Thanks again, everyone.

Grace

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RE: Dying well - 9/10/2009 10:26:34 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Hiya Grace,

I am not ashamed to say that reading your words have brought a few tears to my eyes, we are human after all, and not ashamed of my emotions. There is only two words that I can say; live well .

Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Dying well - 9/10/2009 1:17:37 PM   
Aswad


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Hey, Grace.

Edit: Slightly off-topic (or, rather, around-topic). Sorry about that.

The matter of dying well, combined with a trick of perception, is part of what has confused some people who have trained with me in the Japanese koryu martial arts. To many outside observers, it can seem as if the school of thought is obsessed with death, and hopelessly rigid about protocol in training. When a more complete explanation is offered, some still don't really get it, while others have a moment of enlightenment, so to speak.

Consider the illusion of the picture that can be viewed as a vase or two faces looking at each other. Is it a vase on a white background, or a pair of faces on a black background? The human perception of contrast doesn't see a neutral difference. There is a preferred point of reference; the difference is from this reference to what is compared to. When, as angel pointed out as the likely Gorean preference, life is that point of reference, rather than the opposite exemplified by people like Sylvia Plath, the pieces fall more into place and the school of thought that confuses the students seems less morbid.

In practicing a koryu art, one must remember that one is honoring a tradition that was developed in a time of war and later codified, passed on by people who lived and died by it. To them, even a simple gesture like a respectful bow held significance and merited attention to proper execution, for the simple reason that it might be their last well considered act in life. As such, in honoring their legacy, it is appropriate to maintain that same mindset, and appreciate what it implies about living life; that the only way to ensure that one's final moment is lived as it should be, is to ensure that every moment is lived as it should be. Correctness and integrity are virtues to strive to embody for one that has taken up such a tradition and, one might argue, anyone who is concerned with such things.

Trevelyan related the story of how, during a seminar, he was led to believe they were all going to die. At such a time, some people obsess over death, while others' attention immediately turn to life. For those who are inclined toward the latter, in particular, the aforementioned school of thought simply reminds us of the importance of life and living it well. It is not that one should necessarily be overly concerned about the possibility of dying, but rather that one should be fully concerned with living, and living well. Death becomes a prop, a tool to turn our attention to life. Like the people at the seminar were confronted with what they had left undone, so too are the students.

Humans are such creatures of habit that it sometimes does not fully hit us how important it is to live well, even when we are offered reminders such as those. We occasionally need a good kick in the rear to "wake up" enough to see it. For some of us, the passing of someone near and dear can be that reminder. Others get hung up on things that have been left unsaid or undone, without their thoughts turning to what else is still unsaid or undone in their lives. For those, it is only an encounter with the prospect of their own death that will cause them to "wake up" in this way.

That is, I believe, the main point behind a test used in another Japanese martial arts school, where the last test for any senior student before completing the full set of teachings is to be attacked with lethal intent using a sharp blade. Upon passing (the test is not administered to a student who does not have the ability to pass), the student has come face to face with the prospect of their own death, and if that doesn't cause them to pause and consider what the life that has now been restored to them is about, then nothing will. Thus, in a dual sense, the test either ends in death or true living.

Took me a while before I realized that this is why the concept is never actually explained.

Health,
al-Aswad.


< Message edited by Aswad -- 9/10/2009 1:19:52 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 8:22:55 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

Hi IrishMist,

It is my personal perspective on myself, and on others.  I watched my big strong grandfather die a terrible death at age  62 from lung cancer, from his 4-pack-a-day habit.   I didn't look at his death as 'dying well' at all then, and I still don't.  

The only thing that I can say, is that his generation didn't really know what they were getting into.  But those of since his generation certainly do know, so to start smoking is like begging to be made a slave to nicotine.  At some point, you decided to beg its collar.   Not breaking free of that, one way or another, and ending up ultimately being it's slave/victim at death.   There is nothing terribly 'Gorean' about that, imo.

Same holds true for alcohol and drugs.

~sgs


Hello Sgs

I don't mean to toss off the impression that you obviously carry with you from your own past experiences; but neither can I honestly admit that I agree with your stand. I understand it, I just don't agree.

With the exception of my brother, who died overseas as a result of military action; I have lost every member of my family, including my husband, to cancer of some kind. I understand the pain that comes with that.

I think that my own stand comes from watching my husband pass away. He was an acholohic; I knew this when we first got together. I also knew that nothing I said or did would ever convince him to change his ways unless he made that decision himself. We were together three years when, for some reason, he decided to quit. Cold turkey. You have to understand something. This is a man, who from the age of 16, had been drinking hard liquor. At the time that he made the decision to stop, he was in his 40's. Two years later, they told him he had cancer. Terminal; but they could stretch it a few months longer with treatments. His decision? To die the way he wanted to. He sat me down one day and told me what he was going to do. He was not asking my permission, or asking my advice. He was simply telling me how it was going to be. If he was going to die, he was going to die the way he chose. Happy. And happy meant with a drink in his hand.

I still struggle with the guilt that I did not put up any kind of fight over this. His children could have had a bit more time with him; I could have. And I knew, all I had to do was mention them and he would never have picked up that drink again. I chose instead to give him the one thing that I knew would keep him from dying in a way other than how he had lived. I kept quiet and never said a word when those around us ( family and friends ) condemned his choice; but more than that, condemned me for allowing it to happen.

In those last months, I saw in him the man that had caught my eye to begin with. And though the guilt still remains to this day; I would not change anything given the choice.

So, when I see someone who chooses to die in a way that goes against what I would instead choose for them; I understand the why and keep silent. I give them the dignity that is deserving of such a choice. Because in the end, that is what it is. A choice. I have no choice but to respect that.

Have a wonderful day

mist

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 11:02:48 AM   
Dinnardin


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My Opa (grandfather, paternal) was a strong, solid man...and a ladies' man as well (probably would have been a good Gorean).  His entire life was lived on his own terms, and heserved others around him, if they needed it.  Even in his last years, without any of us being aware of it, he was apparently buyuing and delivering groceries and other supplies to other elderly residents of his hometown who could no longer get out to do so for themselves.    He died at age 83.  He had one heart attack, and never regained consciousness...no lingering, no depending on others.  It would have killed him (pun intended) to be weak and dependent on others for the simplest of life's functions.  THAT is dying on one's own terms, dying well.   I only hope to do as well.

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 11:45:49 AM   
Hiskajirah


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Greetings mist

If I may..

Try to let go of that guilt. You did the right thing. You stood by him. You may have wanted to have taken that away from him (the drink) or interfered, I would have to, but that is the love and devotion. Your focus remained on his happiness to the absolute end and that I greatly respect.


Sincerely,
~twinkle


_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 12:00:56 PM   
mnottertail


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If I know I am dying:

I want to be naked on one of those Olympic Japanese Ski Ramps, with a couple 55 gallon drums of gasoline strapped on my ass, and hit about 3 or 4 of those micky mouse microdots and a guinness and when I start peaking, I want someone to give me a light and a kick.................

That aurghta flake a little cholesterol off the veins for the last ride...... and if I don't cakk from heart failure on the way down, as I rise off the end of the slopes, the gas explodes and I am carried away by the Valkyries


If I don't have the time or am too old, I want cords and cords of logs piled out in this little valley I have in the woods over a couple of 55 gallon drums of gasoline.....and have a viking style funeral, with lots of drinking and talking smart........(hopefully it will be winter with great drifts of snow..............)


Either way, I will do some little damage to the universe, and therefore will leave a lasting imprint that says: this MAN was here, goddammit.

Ron

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 2:41:47 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hiskajirah

Greetings mist

If I may..

Try to let go of that guilt. You did the right thing. You stood by him. You may have wanted to have taken that away from him (the drink) or interfered, I would have to, but that is the love and devotion. Your focus remained on his happiness to the absolute end and that I greatly respect.


Sincerely,
~twinkle


I was not seeking sympathy on this I did what I did, how I did, and like I said, I would not change the way things progressed. I simply was trying to continue the discussion that I had inadverently opened up with Sgs on this. As for the guilt, well, I have had more than 10 years in which to come to terms with it. It never goes away, it probably never will...but I can live with that.

Ya'll have a wonderful evening


Ron...I must say, you do know how to put a smile on someone's face

mist

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 3:02:11 PM   
Kimveri


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Whooooo-hooooooooo! I'll bring a keg of mead! You inspired me to participate here, Ron, for which some will likely not thank you. ;-D

When I was younger, I spent far too many years trying to contort myself & my life to meet the standards & expectations of others. I was miserable.

As I grew wiser, I ceased using the 'yardsticks' of others & developed my own means of evaluating my life, my choices & my direction. I was much happier.

I have continued to make mistakes & bad choices. I happen to value them a great deal. They are the tartness of life that so accentuates the sweetness. They lend balance, adversity & challenge to my days & save me from that endless numbing haze of nirvana. ;-P

I smoke, drink, eat REAL butter & home-made pastries. My health & fitness reflects those choices, mostly negatively. But I decide what portion of my health (or waistline) I am willing to trade for the moments of sensual luxury I savor eating Un's homebaked bread slathered with butter.

What do I gain by depriving myself of the vices, luxuries & indulgences I so enjoy? A couple more years of an austere life & a trimmer waistline? I'd be more miserable than it'd be worth.

I survived one battle with cancer, long ago. Before I had the staples pulled, I began losing loved ones to the beast. Within 7 years, I lost 11 people & only 3 went in a manner/setting of their own choosing. Those experiences have changed me & my view of life.

I now treat life like a ripe, sunwarm peach -- I grab it up with both hands, sink my teeth in fully & let the juice run down my chin. It's not important to catch every drop....just to relish them, be they in my mouth or on my chin!

I intend to die much the same way. Should I have some warning, I will plan mad parties, sky-diving trips & sweaty orgies of laughter with the people whose minds (& bodies) most thrill me. When I can no longer enjoy such treasures under my own steam, I will take a long walk late at night in some cold mountain forest & find a tree to nap beneath.

Should I go suddenly & unexpectedly, well....I hope the excitement of the event that causes it is well-remembered by many! ;-D

I will expect my loved ones (that's ya'll who are my friends & you know who ya are!) to have one hell of a big bonfire & party & talk about what a ferocious bitch I was for friends, for beliefs, for sun-warm peaches & for life.

I'm not sure why, but death to me has little meaning except as a line in the sands of life demarcating where physicality's reign ends & spirituality's reign begins. IF there's a tunnel with lights at the other end....DON'T go to the big white light!! Step to the right & wait for me...we will all catch up there eventually & form our own kaleidascopic conglomeration of life-lights. ;-D

Until then, I wish you enough,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 3:11:15 PM   
IrishMist


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LOL Miss Kimveri, I do so love how you look at things

Have a wonderful day

mist

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





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RE: Dying well - 9/12/2009 6:49:15 PM   
windchymes


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There's a line from a Jimmy Buffett song that I've always loved:  "I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead".   (I didn't read this entire thread, so if someone already quoted it, sorry!)


To Ron, does this mean the rim job is off the table? 

And Kimveri....you rock, girl!

< Message edited by windchymes -- 9/12/2009 6:51:05 PM >


_____________________________

You want to impress your girl, open her car door for her. She'll love it, plus the walk from her door to yours is a great time to fart.

You know it's going to be a GOOD blow job when she puts a Breathe Right strip on first.


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RE: Dying well - 9/13/2009 6:32:05 AM   
IrishMist


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HisKajirah

I am sorry if my response to your words came off as sounding as if I was offended. I did not mean for you to think such a thing and I do apologize for that.

Have a wonderful day

mist

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





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RE: Dying well - 9/13/2009 6:46:57 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves

I think there are some ways to not die so well.

For example, to die of lung cancer because you were never able to conquer your smoking addiction... to me that is not dying well.

To die of illnesses associated with drugs, drinking, smoking, etc... is not dying well.   Those were all things you could have gained control over and didn't, and therefore you die as its victim.  Slave to the substance.

~sgs


so, my dad, who never smoked a cigarette dying of lung cancer, is ok in your book?

and the health nut who had a heart attack while running his 32nd marathon, him not listening to the warning signs his body gave, thats ok and honorable.

sorry if my reply comes off a bit pissy, but , well, for some reason, your logic made me a bit pissy.

death will get us all, no matter what we are a slave to, be it healthy or unhealthy.

the implication that some deserve it more than others, well, i just do not agree.



_____________________________

Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength; move on. ~Henry Rollins


We don't remember days, we remember moments.
Cesar Pavese

Talk to me in 20 years.

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RE: Dying well - 9/13/2009 7:45:51 AM   
XaviersXian


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greetings to all,

To me, "dying well" means dying after having lived an honest, honourable life (honourable meaning that I've kept my promises, and done what I've said I would do) and lived with no regrets (or regrets that I've managed to make my peace with over the course of my life).

well wishes,

(in reply to JstAnotherSub)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Dying well - 9/13/2009 7:47:09 AM   
Aswad


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Hey, Kim!

Xenoglossic yodling will probably produce copious laughter or hilarious attempts at shutting out the noise.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to windchymes)
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RE: Dying well - 9/13/2009 7:51:22 AM   
Hiskajirah


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Morning mist

Thank you and please don't be sorry. I thought that I may have offended you.

It's all good.! ~smiles


Wishing you a splendiferous Sunday,
~twinkle

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

HisKajirah

I am sorry if my response to your words came off as sounding as if I was offended. I did not mean for you to think such a thing and I do apologize for that.

Have a wonderful day

mist


_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 80
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