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RE: Dying well - 9/15/2009 2:11:30 PM   
Louve00


Posts: 1526
Joined: 2/1/2009
Status: offline 		And as you answer (and I keep laughing lol), I realize there too...we will never know the answer to that either.

Life holds such mysteries.

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For the great majority of mankind are satisfied with appearance, as though they were realities and are often more influenced by the things that seem than by those that are. - Niccolo Machiavelli

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Dying well - 9/15/2009 7:55:33 PM   
IrishMist


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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Im curious.... in this discussion of dying well...just how many of you have faced your own mortality..not the concept of dying but waited for the next breath.. and then crawled for the next breath... sunk down into the inevitable darkness ... In this discussion of dying well how many of you have touched the end of your life line..even for a moment?

I have. I was on a job that went sour. Four bullets; one through a lung, another through an artery, another knicked my kidney and the last one shattered my knee.

Nothing like knowing that you are dying...even worse is hearing it in the voices of the people that surround you.
*shrug*
It is a part of life though. I will admit though that it has made me a bit more careful about who I let guard my back.

Ya'll have a nice night now

mist

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





(in reply to Sylverdawn)
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RE: Dying well - 9/15/2009 8:49:03 PM   
amelliagrace


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Joined: 8/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Im curious.... in this discussion of dying well...just how many of you have faced your own mortality..not the concept of dying but waited for the next breath.. and then crawled for the next breath... sunk down into the inevitable darkness ... In this discussion of dying well how many of you have touched the end of your life line..even for a moment?


The closest I've come to that was spending several hours being assaulted, part of which included being slowly, systematically, suffocated by inches, over a considerable length of time. At one point, I was sure that my chances of seeing another day were somewhat less than even. Another time, I was told that "I might as well go ahead and kill you", while the vehicle I was in was aimed at a tree, at a considerable rate of speed, prior to airbags, let alone passenger side ones, were available. (A last minute decision by the nut job brought the tree within 2 inches of my door handle.

Plenty of individuals who read these boards have come closer to death than I have. Even so, I feel as though that horizon we call death was within reach, breifly.

Gracie

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 9/15/2009 8:52:45 PM >

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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 7:17:32 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I ask this question because for those of us who faced the actuality of death..not this one day in the distant future but looked at it acknowledged it...dying is simply that final end...its not romantic.. its not some soft focus cut to the white light in a movie.... "Molly... you take the love with you "  its dark.. its messy... its a struggle.... Dying well is rather inconsistant with the experience. Living well.. thats something else... Loving well... thats what LIFE is about...I focus on that .. each morning is a gift... precious and unrepeatable... you know what they say.. "No one gets out of this one alive..."SD

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 9/16/2009 7:20:24 AM >

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“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 7:33:40 AM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I don't know about that, there is some adventure in the notion of the great beyond..

I have seen death throes go both ways, a struggle and rattle, and slipping into a nice warm bath sort of thing........

But you die and cum alone, that is for sure, nobody can share that with you, really.

Ron

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Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 9:00:01 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn
Im curious.... in this discussion of dying well...just how many of you have faced your own mortality..not the concept of dying but waited for the next breath.. and then crawled for the next breath... sunk down into the inevitable darkness ... In this discussion of dying well how many of you have touched the end of your life line..even for a moment?



I've been there twice. Once at the 'hands' of undiagnosed & untreated cancer, in the ICU with a crash cart outside my door & the certainty that when I closed my eyes I'd not wake. Once at the hands of others...the details of which I'll not share.

How about you?

~Kimveri

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"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 9:33:08 AM   
IrishMist


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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

I ask this question because for those of us who faced the actuality of death..not this one day in the distant future but looked at it acknowledged it...dying is simply that final end...its not romantic.. its not some soft focus cut to the white light in a movie.... "Molly... you take the love with you "  its dark.. its messy... its a struggle.... Dying well is rather inconsistant with the experience. Living well.. thats something else... Loving well... thats what LIFE is about...I focus on that .. each morning is a gift... precious and unrepeatable... you know what they say.. "No one gets out of this one alive..."SD

It's cold. It's being so cold that you can feel it spreading through your body.
*shudders*
That's what I remember more than anything

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 10:53:12 AM   
VirginPotty


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From: Virginville
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quote:

I've been there twice. Once at the 'hands' of undiagnosed & untreated cancer, in the ICU with a crash cart outside my door & the certainty that when I closed my eyes I'd not wake. Once at the hands of others...the details of which I'll not share.

How about you?

~Kimveri


I too have been at that door twice, one at the hand of another (sometimes breath play ISN"T fun...) and one by my own hand.

Neither time did I see the "great white light" (which has me worried) nor was I cold, I merely was................then I opened my eyes.

< Message edited by VirginPotty -- 9/16/2009 10:54:36 AM >

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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 12:28:29 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Death is death, no one can tell you what death is unless they well have died.  Being at death's door in a struggle for LIFE, isn't well death.  I know it may seem like it but it is in the end still life until such time death happens etc, but it seems everyone here who has been knocking somehow now is notsomuch anymore.  Some people have actually been dead and then come back to life. But being close to death -- is not death.  Facing your mortality to me isn't facing death, its facing the fact that you won't LIVE forever.   I don't see how death is a struggle for all, you have some people wherein it's a struggle to LIVE -- not to die, in my opinion, you have instant death, you have passing away quietly (or so it appears).

I've never liked the concept of death, i have only seen death as a part of life versus life being a part of death so to speak.  Everyone has issues in life, you have some people who have faced death square in the eye and beat it to live another day, you have had some people so close to the decision of death, and you have MANY people who are living death so to speak.  What is death?  Is it the ceasing of bodily functions as a whole, is it spiritual, is it the ceasing of life?

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 12:43:52 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

What is death? Is it the ceasing of bodily functions as a whole, is it spiritual, is it the ceasing of life?

Truthfully, I see death as nothing more than an end.
Birth is the beginning, death is the end; and life is what is in between

_____________________________

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up shit by the clean end.





(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 3:45:42 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Well give me my cap and gown.. and call me a graduate.. I ceased to breath... I died... I saw the world go into pinpoints then nothing... I was on life support for five long long long days for my loved ones.. with the doctors shrugging their shoulders.. and patting him on the back saying... we just dont know... and I wake up each and every morning now and remember... learning to breath on my own again then to sit up and then to walk..and the rest well.. thats my business... nough said... SD

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 4:25:45 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		SD i don't get your post, maybe i am missing something.   It seems you are wanting something other than is what is being said.   Are you somehow MORE because of your experience should mean something more?  You are now NOT dead, yes?   So you have had an experience MOST people never will, and i am sure your life reflects same.  You have overcome something hopefully most people never will have too.   That is a good thing.   Are you somehow now HINDERED because you live or in hindsight your experience has changed your life in a way many people -- no MOST people -- will never understand. 

Your posts seem almost as if people who HAVEN'T experienced what you have should feel bad that they haven't or not speak about this topic?  I disagree.  Death is a topic everyone faces in their lives, some more than others.  People experience different things in their lives that are on many scales the same only the situation is different because its based on perception.  People face this with different perceptions.  You are one person who has -- in my opinion -- had the most unexplainable, for lack of better word extraordinary thing happen to her -- YOU DIED and are here to talk about it.   Did you have to struggle to live thereafter, yes, but people do continuously on a daily basis in all ways shape and form -- so in that, you really aren't special.  But dying and living to talk about it -- extraordinary.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 5:22:35 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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Joined: 6/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetgirlserves




Above I mentioned one way to not die well, in my opinion.   You stated that I said 'There is only one way to live which makes it possible to die well".       Really?   What is it.  The quote you copied above does not mention one way to live to die well.   It mentions one way, in my opinion, to not die well.


~sgs


obviously what we have here is a failure to communicate.......and i just dont have the inclination to try to explain any further.

that means you win i reckon....

_____________________________

Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength; move on. ~Henry Rollins


We don't remember days, we remember moments.
Cesar Pavese

Talk to me in 20 years.

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RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 5:24:09 PM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

On dying well,

My mother always made me change my underwear, because she didn't want skid marks in them should I have been in a car accident (so as not to embarrass the mortician, I suppose).

So, in any car accident, or near death experience I have been involved in over my lifetime, I try to shit my pants as a talisman.

Ron


thats the funniest thing i have read in a long time....



_____________________________

Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength; move on. ~Henry Rollins


We don't remember days, we remember moments.
Cesar Pavese

Talk to me in 20 years.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Dying well - 9/16/2009 10:33:16 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6620
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		Those are not experiences I would like to revisit, Sylverdawn. And it is not necessary, either, to note that there is a huge difference between romanticizing death and recognizing that there is more to it than the fact that it sucks. It does suck. But I would rather be beheaded than vivisected, for instance. Sometimes, you don't get a choice, but dating Armin Meiwes is probably going to affect your odds of one outcome vs the other. The manner of passing may not vary all that much, but it occurs in a context (illness, accident, murder, etc.) that does vary, and which does matter.

I could be wrong, but I think Grace was looking to discuss the road, not the drawbridge...

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 9/16/2009 11:12:22 PM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Dying well - 9/17/2009 9:45:14 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I think you can live with courage, I think you can live with grace... I think you can live in love and graititude.... for me I would rather talk about living well.. dying is simply the period in the closing sentence that is a life. That is what I am saying... the rest is just well to put in in texas speak.. cowpuky....

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 9/17/2009 9:46:21 AM >

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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RE: Dying well - 9/17/2009 1:36:28 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hello Folks,

I have followed this topic, and started a post, then deleted it, only to come back and start one again.  Perhaps this time I'll actually finish it.

If anyone has read many of my posts over the years they have see me write about my Mom, and her progression of Alzheimer's, and how much she has failed.   A few of you know my Mom passed away a couple of months ago,  I wasn't ready to discuss her  death publically, or hear anyone express their sympathy.   I wrote to someone and told them, Mom taught me how to live, she has now taught me how to die.  Mom years ago signed a living will, while she was completely cognizant; in fact, my brother (who is a Doctor), discussed her death with her, what she wanted and ..didn't want.   She made it perfectly clear, she did NOT want any type of heroics, life support, she wanted DNR.  She did not want an open casket, she did not want anyone looking down on her when she was dead.  She did not want a "viewing" of any sort.  She wanted to be buried in a pine box.  

That was a few years ago, so fast forward to July, she no longer had full faculties.  Her kidneys were failing, Mom's Doctor called my brother, my brother told him, no dialysis.   We had hospice for her.   I made four trips to Lexington, about four hours away, in three weeks.  I would not change a thing, while I wasn't with her as she drew her last breath, I did tell her it was ok to go, that Dad was waiting on her.   Brule felt that as long as I was in the room, she wouldn't "let go",  he was right, when I finally layed down to get some rest, she passed away within two hours.   As soon as they woke us, to tell us, I sat with Mom's body in the softly lit room with her favorite hyms playing, it was comforting, until the hearse came and took her body.   In fact, Mom had donated her brain to a university, so someone could perhaps learn a little more about a debilitating disease. 

We followed Mom's wishes to the letter, well for except one.  It's now illegal to use a pine box to bury someone.  I think Mom would be ok with that one single waver of her wishes.    Oh yes, she was 91, she had a long full life.  I miss her, but her values, her lessons she taught will live long, through her children, grand children, great grand children and great great grandchildren. 

She died on her own terms - to me that is dying well.

I wish you well,

Elizabeth



< Message edited by ElizabethAnne -- 9/17/2009 1:39:07 PM >

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RE: Dying well - 9/17/2009 1:56:16 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I see where you are coming from Liz  but I suppose I have a different perspective ... I would say she lived on her own terms... dying was that final act .... the choices she made for you and yoru family clearly good ones enhanced your life and what remained of her life... all those burdens could be laid down.. she had written her final performance and so in that I say she died..but man what a life she lived... and you know I wish you always well... SD

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

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Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Dying well - 9/17/2009 5:13:46 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		SylverDawn,

Thank you, and yes I know you do.

Liz

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Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Dying well - 9/18/2009 10:27:52 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6620
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online 		As you say, Sylverdawn, a matter of perspective.

The word "dying" can apply to a process and the context in which it occurs, or to the end stage of the process. I think most of the replies here have dealt with the former, as the latter has some very distinct features that make it hard to really define the quality of dying well in relation to that end stage.

I'm quite aware of why mom hung on hard from the point when life support was cut, up to a few deeper breaths after I told dad to take her hand instead of me (this was about her, and his holding her hand has always been a comfort and a lifeline for her), even though that was what she had asked for: it's not easy to take the plunge. Our instincts kick in, and we are afflicted with mortal terror in a literal sense, our primal wiring telling us to fight this, to keep going. Even when it's what we think we are ready for. And even with the potent anxiolytic effects of morphine, some of that fear is still going to be there. The transition is never pretty, and the manner in which she faced it was inspirational from my perspective of having been in a situation where I had to let go myself, with the near certainty of not waking up again.

She showed more strength of character in that moment than I did in mine.

So, no, it's not nice, and it still brings a tear to my eye to reflect on what it would have been like for her, a person I cared a great deal about, and again from the perspective of having faced a similarly grim prospect with less courage, but it is still possible to ascribe a quality to it. And in that regard, I would say that while the phrase dying well is more interesting in the sense of the context of a death than in the sense of the transition, it is indeed possible to die well in that sense, as well. It's a more relative term, since the transition is always a solid piece of crap, but allowing for that, there are degrees. And at some point, the threshold for "well" has been passed in that regard, as well. IMO, anyway.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 120
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