RE: Is Atheism a religion?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 11:52:15 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

I agree with you about the absolute.

Jumping to therefore it's a religion is the disconnect. It doesn't make the person religious--just mistaken (and poor at reasoning).

I'm sorry, Tim, I didn't see this when I made my last post.

Yes, I agree that the way the word "religion" is being employed here is subject to question, or at least clarification.

K.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:06:19 PM

FirmhandKY

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Excellent posts, Kirata,

Atheism is a specific belief system.

Any religion is a specific belief system.

Religions and atheism are both part of the same universal set of "belief systems", but "atheism" is not necessarily part of the "religion" subset of belief systems.

However, when atheists act and believe that they have the one-true-way of beliefs, it makes no operational difference.

Firm

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:28:34 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

However, when atheists act and believe that they have the one-true-way of beliefs, it makes no operational difference.
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I seem to have missed the idea that this is an "atheist" country that must be "taken back" in the "name of Atheism". I also have not seen any concerted effort to bring Atheism to the world by making food for the starving and shelter for the homeless dependent upon listening to Atheistic theory. In fact, the only thing I've seen from Atheists is the desire that, since this is a country of many varied beliefs, that the government not accept one as preeminent. That seems like a big difference to me

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:34:22 PM

luckydawg

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Maybe stuff like tearing down 75 year old War Memorials put up by the VFW, is an example of "taking back" the country for atheism.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:38:15 PM

DCWoody

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Is athiems a religion? No, of course not.....americans...what will they think of next.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:42:54 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Maybe stuff like tearing down 75 year old War Memorials put up by the VFW, is an example of "taking back" the country for atheism.

No..it is an example of separating church and state. Also, the action was brought by a Buddhist, not an atheist. Not everyone who isn't a Christian is an atheist.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:47:31 PM

KatyLied

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quote:

Not everyone who isn't a Christian is an atheist.

Well, you know, there are tons of Christians who do believe that.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:48:22 PM

luckydawg

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It seems to me that for some people Atheism functions exactly as a religion. A virtual religion as it were.

A large part of the problem is that athiests can't agree on what it means, and there are different definitions. Strong/ weak, implicit/explicit, what does Agnostic mean, ect. I like Dawkins use, "Spectrum of theistic probability". With out a common set of functinal definitions, we all just go around in circles.

There certainly are "evangelical Fundamentalist Athiests" around though. But certainly not all, or even most.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:51:59 PM

tazzygirl

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The ACLU initiated a lawsuit in 2001-MAR against the National Park Service on behalf of Frank Buono, a Roman Catholic and retired deputy superintendent of Mojave National Preserve. He is also a board member of Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER). This group has as one of its objectives to end government sponsorship of religious objects on public lands. The lawsuit was titled Buono v. Norton.

....

2008-FALL: Appeal to the U.S Supreme Court:
Government lawyers in the Bush administration appealed the decision to the U.S. Supreme Court. They said that the lower court's "seriously misguided decision [would require the government] ...to tear down a cross that has stood without incident for 70 years as a memorial to fallen service members." They also challenged whether Buono could legitimately initiate the lawsuit. He lives in Oregon and does not appear to be suffering any harm from the cross' existence.
There is actually no need to "tear down" the cross. It can simply be unbolted, moved onto nearby private land, and reattached.

The VFW submitted an amicus-curia brief (friend of the court brief) suggesting that if the 9th Circuit ruling is upheld, that there might well be future challenges to the display of crosses at the Arlington National Cemetery and elsewhere.

The U.S. Supreme Court has decided to hear the case, now called Salazaar vs. Buono, in 2009-OCT. It is a very important case because it is the first opportunity for the Roberts Court to decide a lawsuit that directly involves the 1st Amendment's establishment clause. 1

Presumably, the display could easily be expanded to include a Jewish Star of David to honor Jewish veterans, an Atheist or other secularist symbol to honor other Agnostic, Atheist, Humanist veterans, etc. Then it might be considered a cultural display, and be constitutional. It would also then be more representative of the diversity of World War I veterans, whether they followed a religion or not. 2

http://www.religioustolerance.org/mojavecross.htm

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 6:58:36 PM

luckydawg

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Spinner, wrong again. The case was brought by the ACLU on behalf of a Catholic (lapsed is a presumption on my part). There was no Bhuddist involved. http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/24/nation/na-supreme-court-cross24

"At issue now is an 8-foot-tall cross in the Mojave National Preserve in Southern California. It was first erected by the Veterans of Foreign Wars in 1934 and has been maintained as a war memorial by the National Park Service.

The American Civil Liberties Union objected to the cross and filed a suit on behalf of Frank Bruno, a Catholic and former Park Service employee. The suit noted that the government had denied a request to have a Buddhist shrine erected near the cross."

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:01:57 PM

dcnovice

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quote:

It seems to me that for some people Atheism functions exactly as a religion.

How? I don't know many atheists, so I'm having trouble picturing this.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:03:58 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

However, when atheists act and believe that they have the one-true-way of beliefs, it makes no operational difference.
ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I seem to have missed the idea that this is an "atheist" country that must be "taken back" in the "name of Atheism". I also have not seen any concerted effort to bring Atheism to the world by making food for the starving and shelter for the homeless dependent upon listening to Atheistic theory. In fact, the only thing I've seen from Atheists is the desire that, since this is a country of many varied beliefs, that the government not accept one as preeminent. That seems like a big difference to me

What I'm talking about is some atheist acting like some religious people.

I'm talking about the way that some religious people are narrow-minded, bigoted, utterly convinced that only they know the truth, dismissive to those who refuse to "see the light", and who attempt to insist that everyone must believe as they do, or they are either idiots, or damned.

There are several atheist like that on this board.

I see no operational difference between a bigoted atheist, and a bigoted religious person.

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 9/7/2009 7:04:19 PM >

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:05:11 PM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Spinner, wrong again. The case was brought by the ACLU on behalf of a Catholic (lapsed is a presumption on my part). There was no Bhuddist involved. http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/24/nation/na-supreme-court-cross24

"At issue now is an 8-foot-tall cross in the Mojave National Preserve in Southern California. It was first erected by the Veterans of Foreign Wars in 1934 and has been maintained as a war memorial by the National Park Service.

The American Civil Liberties Union objected to the cross and filed a suit on behalf of Frank Bruno, a Catholic and former Park Service employee. The suit noted that the government had denied a request to have a Buddhist shrine erected near the cross."

then wouldnt you be equally as wrong seeing how a Buddhist was involved, since it was he request, and subsequent denial of his request, that began the lawsuit to begin with?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:06:33 PM

luckydawg

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Dc, with almost 24,000 posts under your belt, you ain't gonna see it if you already haven't. I don't feel like going back to look up Meat Cleavers postings to show how that he felt his view of what science teaches satisfies every element of a religion.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:06:34 PM

KatyLied

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If atheism is functioning as a religion, what exactly are the atheists worshiping?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:10:19 PM

SpinnerofTales

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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Spinner, wrong again. The case was brought by the ACLU on behalf of a Catholic (lapsed is a presumption on my part). There was no Bhuddist involved. http://articles.latimes.com/2009/feb/24/nation/na-supreme-court-cross24

"At issue now is an 8-foot-tall cross in the Mojave National Preserve in Southern California. It was first erected by the Veterans of Foreign Wars in 1934 and has been maintained as a war memorial by the National Park Service.

The American Civil Liberties Union objected to the cross and filed a suit on behalf of Frank Bruno, a Catholic and former Park Service employee. The suit noted that the government had denied a request to have a Buddhist shrine erected near the cross."

Ahhh...I was wrong.I had heard of the Buddhist shrine and thought it was a Buddhist who brought the suit And, of course, anyone who supports the separation of church and state HAS to be a lapsed Catholic and hence an Atheist. After all, any Christian believer would never object to something he saw as a challenge to the constitution.

Your very supposition that any Christian would prefer to see a symbol of his religion displayed that uphold the constitution is rather supportive of my point, dawg. Thanks for highlighting that belief.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:12:00 PM

luckydawg

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No Tazzy, it was Bruno, a former Park employee, who tried to put up the Bhuddist Memorial. Got turned down. Called the ACLU, and they sued for him. There was no Bhuddist involved.

I admitted I am presuming he was a lapsed Catholic/Athiest. So I may be wrong about something, we don't have a full picture on that.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:13:50 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

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The thing that always puzzles me is - why are so many religious people absolutely adamant that atheism is a religion?

Why do you guys insist that it's a religion? Why is this so important to you?

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:14:20 PM

Kirata

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You wield an awfully damned broad brush for a fellow who likes to present himself as a proponent of enlightened and civil debate.

K.

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RE: Is Atheism a religion? - 9/7/2009 7:16:49 PM

luckydawg

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Katy, depends on the definiton of Worship doesn't it? Most athiests I know create a system for themselves, that gives them a reason to "live right", which is my functional definition of Worship, living as one should..."Walking in Beauty".

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