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Wishing to open my mind


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Wishing to open my mind - 9/13/2009 10:47:34 PM   
dominomask


Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline 		Hi. Let me start by saying, my intent here is entirely respectful. In those instances where I am frank, I sincerely hope not to offend but just to be clear with brevity. I am currently prejudiced, and am uncomfortable with that. I am hoping for considerate assistance.

I have never read the Gor books. I realize that I probably should, just to round out my sci-fi geek cred if nothing else, but if your only response is some version of "RTFM" that's not really helpful and serves only to diminish my desire to ever do so. Nor am I looking for lengthy quotes from the books, or flowery attempts to approximate them. I am looking for intelligent conversation from practicing Goreans (both the Top kind and the bottom kind...I don't want to insult anyone by getting terminology wrong) on specific points. I promise I am not, nor am I associated with, an anthropologist, a reporter, or a member of law enforcement.

At the moment, my impressions of the Gorean ideals and community, admittedly as an outsider, are such that I have little real reason for wanting to devote the time to reading the source material, The word "Gorean" has some fairly negative connotations to me, which I suppose I could describe but which I also assume are old hat to you and don't require potentially insulting ennumeration. My exposure to the prose is from a spoof entitled "houseplants of Gor" that was read to me by a friend. My exposure to Gorean individuals has been largely online, and overwhelmingly unpleasant.

One reasonable individual recently pointed out to me that many of these people I have "encountered" are not "real" Goreans but the kind that only play around online and are therefore comfortable fantasizing in the impractical extreme, and that in actual practice Gorean lifestyle is not as bad as I think, and that the values of Gor are about grander things than small-minded selfish misogyny and petulent backlash against a misunderstanding of the worst of feminism. I have a knee-jerk reaction about Goreans. I cannot imagine that this is fair to you.

In exchange for any sincere efforts to help me open my mind, I'd be happy to have private conversations about why feminism is really not about castration or female superiority (the same way that there are bad Goreans that give y'all a bad rep, I fully own that there are bad feminists who should STFU). I expect that there are good things I can get out of understanding the best of Gor, and would like to give good in return if desired.

So these are my questions. I serve as a philosophical tour-guide to a lot of vanilla folks who ask me about kink, poly, gaming, and my various other counter-cultural pursuits, so I recognize that sometimes simple questions are the most offensive. Again, my intent is not to offend, and if you're easily offended, I hope you've already stopped reading and sent me a nasty note, to which I will humbly apologize...it is not my wish to insult others in their own space. I'm hoping for some intellectual detachment and resilliancy here, though I respect your right to become emotional and defensive in reaction to this sort of intrusion.

Do Goreans hate women?
Is there any room in Gorean philosophy for a female "Top" if a female adhered to the standard values that define a "Top"?
Are all men "Top" even if they are lacking in the standard values that define a good "Top"?
How important is it to a Gorean that it be acknowledged that Gorean practice is superior (more intense, loving, stable, natural, correct, whatever) to "lesser" forms of BDSM?
To be a Gorean, do you have to be 24/7 or is there any room/respect for moderation or "play"?
What lifestyle in the BDSM spectrum do Goreans find most distasteful, debased, threatening, or wrong?
Outside of the Gor books, are there any published works about being a Gorean that you would recommend to someone with these sorts of stupid questions?
How do practicing Goreans feel about "online only" Goreans?

I sincerely appreciate your attention and patience. Again, I admit I am prejudiced, and am hoping to open my mind. If I've offended anyone, I am sincerely sorry.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/13/2009 11:29:14 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16565
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Well. Where to start?

If you're hoping to open your mind, you'll have to start by doing so. You're setting some pretty limiting rules. Sort of like "Explain evolution to me but don't mention Darwin." You've also not read the FAQ thread on this board, which would certainly get you started on much of this and even answer some of the questions you raise (Gor has nothing to do with BDSM), nor the section guidelines for this forum, which clarify that it's not a place for role-playing, setting your "online only" questions. Kind of like going to a group of scientists and saying "I'm interested in science, but don't expect me to read any science books. Isn't there a book about science that doesn't involve reading any science?" You don't want even attempts to approximate this. Instead, you want to have a conversation about something you don't know anything about.

If you're looking for someone to sell you Gor, you're not going to find it. If you're not interested, just go your way. Problem solved. If you have personal issues with rushing to judgment, how do you expect we're going to solve that? Or would be interesting in trying? Do the work you need to do on yourself. Maybe start with some self-help books. Minds open from the inside out, and prejudices are dropped by the owner, not by wresting them from clutching fingers. If you are interested, pick up a copy of Tarnsman of Gor -- if you're intrigued, move on to Outlaw of Gor; if you're not, again, problem solved. What else can you expect? You seek a philosophical tour guide, but don't want to go on the tour.

A lot of damn sharp people stroll through here. We know know what feminism is, and that it comes in various degrees and flavors. We also know a lot of vanilla people--we aren't living in a commune here. And (take a stroll through past threads), we have a fair amount of philosophical discussions and debates. Your "offer" isn't bringing anything to the table--and your questions are pretty wacky. Geez. Perhaps you've noticed a lot of women post here? And when did we start criticizing BDSM?

Nope, not offended, not defensive, not emotional, not even standoffish. Just pointing out that you need to bring some common sense to your query. Be reasonable.

And yes, you'll have to do your homework. Why do you suppose people keep stressing read the books? Wouldn't that say to you that apparently that's very important? Until you do, you'll have nothing but your "knee-jerk reactions" upon which to base your assumptions.

Think it over.



_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/13/2009 11:54:00 PM   
dominomask


Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline 		Well, ok, without respect to any of the rules you consider me to have set please explain the statement "Gor has nothing to do with BDSM".


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Well. Where to start?

If you're hoping to open your mind, you'll have to start by doing so. You're setting some pretty limiting rules. Sort of like "Explain evolution to me but don't mention Darwin." You've also not read the FAQ thread on this board, which would certainly get you started on much of this and even answer some of the questions you raise (Gor has nothing to do with BDSM), nor the section guidelines for this forum, which clarify that it's not a place for role-playing, setting your "online only" questions. Kind of like going to a group of scientists and saying "I'm interested in science, but don't expect me to read any science books. Isn't there a book about science that doesn't involve reading any science?" You don't want even attempts to approximate this. Instead, you want to have a conversation about something you don't know anything about.



And just as a note, I'm a little confused. I would have no problem explaining evolution to someone without mentioning Darwin. Would you?

(edited for irrelevant length and a typo)

< Message edited by dominomask -- 9/14/2009 12:01:15 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 12:16:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16565
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.collarchat.com/m_2294491/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm#2743085

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1963893/mpage_17/key_BDSM/tm.htm#2343203

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 12:34:05 AM   
dominomask


Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2294491/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm#2743085

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1963893/mpage_17/key_BDSM/tm.htm#2343203


A very good quote, thank you.

"So how do we deal with this? One person at a time. Trying to understand what they are seeing and addressing our comments appropriately for that audience so that they can understand what we are trying to say rather then assuming they should get it. We will undoubtedly loose most battles, but win just enough to get the point across even if it is only one person at a time.

Jahna"

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 1:55:46 AM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 8572
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Do Goreans hate women?


No. Some Goreans even are women.

quote:

Is there any room in Gorean philosophy for a female "Top" if a female adhered to the standard values that define a "Top"?


Philosophy has zero to do with Topping or bottoming. Topping and bottoming are activities. Aside from that, there really aren't any 'standard values' that define a Top in any event unless you're talking about something like SSC or RACK which has no place in Gorean philosophy.

quote:

Are all men "Top" even if they are lacking in the standard values that define a good "Top"?


The problem here is that 'top' and 'bottom' aren't part of the Gorean philosophy. They are activities and plenty of Goreans do like some parts of BDSM, but no, not all men are 'top'. Plenty of Goreans completely shun any BDSM related activities. They just aren't interested. In the books, there are male kajirus (bottom for ease of clarification) but they're pretty well shunned by most Goreans. There are one or two who post here though and because of their respect, demeanor and attitude, they're not run out of town on a rail or anything. :)


quote:

How important is it to a Gorean that it be acknowledged that Gorean practice is superior (more intense, loving, stable, natural, correct, whatever) to "lesser" forms of BDSM?


On a scale of 1 - 10, Goreans fall around the "I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks," level. ::chuckles::

quote:

To be a Gorean, do you have to be 24/7 or is there any room/respect for moderation or "play"?


Do you have to be 24/7 to be a Christian or is it okay to be Jewish once in a while? You either are or are not Gorean, so, no, there is no room/respect for moderation or part-time 'play'. That said, you can take on Gorean role-play aspects and do anything you like with anything you want. You get to set the rules for your own life (or have a partner who sets them for you) but you're unlikely to find a practicing Gorean who's going to role-play Master - kajira with (generic) you.

quote:

What lifestyle in the BDSM spectrum do Goreans find most distasteful, debased, threatening, or wrong?


Purely subjective. There is no general 'answer' to the question, that said, female dominant/male submissive is probably not very high on any list around Goreans.


quote:

Outside of the Gor books, are there any published works about being a Gorean that you would recommend to someone with these sorts of stupid questions?


If there are published works about being Gorean outside of those penned by John Norman, I'm unaware of them. About the best you can hope for are online OP ED's.

quote:

How do practicing Goreans feel about "online only" Goreans?


Again, subjective, but I'd bet a dollar to a donut that most practicing Goreans don't give a shit about online roleplayers and wouldn't waste a lot of time on them.

Hope that helps!

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 9/14/2009 1:56:22 AM >

_____________________________

۩ "The mind, once expanded to the dimensions of larger ideas, never returns to its original size." ۩
~Oliver Wendell Holmes~

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 3:21:22 AM   
dominomask


Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

Do Goreans hate women?


No. Some Goreans even are women.



I know women who hate women. Don't you?:)

But thank you very very much, that was very helpful.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 5:05:58 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
Do Goreans hate women?


No.
quote:


Is there any room in Gorean philosophy for a female "Top" if a female adhered to the standard values that define a "Top"?


To answer this question I must replace "Top" with dominant as an adjetive and not a noun. Anyone can be dominant, but males in general have the biological and evolutionary traits to be more dominant than females. This is in general, and there may be variations that fall outside the standard mean.

quote:


Are all men "Top" even if they are lacking in the standard values that define a good "Top"?


Same as above. Good leaders are good leaders because of how they lead, not because of gender. There are situations that gender may sometimes hamper, such as combat, but it depends on the individual.

quote:


How important is it to a Gorean that it be acknowledged that Gorean practice is superior (more intense, loving, stable, natural, correct, whatever) to "lesser" forms of BDSM?


Being Gorean has nothing to do wth BDSM (you will read this statement from many people). Being Gorean has to do with living life. What I personally do is superior to anything else, because it is how I wish to live.

quote:


To be a Gorean, do you have to be 24/7 or is there any room/respect for moderation or "play"?


I am me 24/7, and since I currently use Gorean as a descriptor of how I perceive things, then I would be me all of the time.

quote:


What lifestyle in the BDSM spectrum do Goreans find most distasteful, debased, threatening, or wrong?


No answer, as each Gorean has personal preferences.

quote:


Outside of the Gor books, are there any published works about being a Gorean that you would recommend to someone with these sorts of stupid questions?


Nietzsche, Plato, Socrates, and many other philosophers that Norman has mixed their philosophies into the Gorean Morality. These readings are not necessary though, and for some they may confuse things as they may put more emphasis on an individual philospher, than Norman actually does in displaying in story, the Gorean Morality.

quote:


How do practicing Goreans feel about "online only" Goreans?


I feel they distort Gorean Morality for those on the outside. Now there are some Goreans that live as such all the time, and spend time online.

quote:


I sincerely appreciate your attention and patience. Again, I admit I am prejudiced, and am hoping to open my mind. If I've offended anyone, I am sincerely sorry.


Just realize that the questions you are asking, have been asked many times. This is why we compiled as much of a Gorean FAQ as we could.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 5:14:39 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

First of all you do not need to want to follow the Gorean lifestyle to read the Gor books. I originally got them because I am a complete slut for science fiction and they are like them or not a part of science fiction history. Besides as a Transhumanist I love stories of pepole who have found a way not to age, and the characters in the Gor books. I read the books originally for fun. Not that the books are not realy literary that good. The author repeats himself countless times. In ways like this. One character says to the  man in the bar he want a drink, and half the next page is filled with. Me to says so and so, me to says so and so. Instead of just cutting through it and say and the others in the bar ordered drinks also. Or things like telling the reader 20 times on the same page that a particular girl is a slave. You are a slave. I am a slave. You are truly a slave. Two lines of other conversation. I am a slave, you are enslaved in a way only slaves can me. I am a slave. Yes I want to scream at the author. We get it now, the lady is a slave.

Now this is a literary method which are seldom used any more. I am not sure if the author is just horrible at it, or if the method was abandoned for good reason. The plot lines are okey but nothing special. There is really only one good thing about the Gor series if read just to be literature. They are refreshingly non politically correct. Here you have a society where men rule and women have to follow that rule or be killed or enslaved. Where a race of pacifist aliens are killed for sport just because they do not fight back, where killing someone who have insulted your honor is a good thing. It is a society with completely different values to the modern Western world. Now this is not so rare, many fantasy and science fiction books have that. But here the differences in society is not presented as bad, and it is not the hero of the story's job to fight against such an evil society. In stead the hero of the story who start out with a Western mindset, slowly begin to think more like a Gorean, and that is presented as good. Now I can tolerate all the Gor series flaws, just to read something so refreshingly none politically correct. Tarl begins freeing slaves and acting like a white night, and ends up owning slaves and raping prisoners and accepting the mindset of the planet he have been sent to. If nothing else the books got guts.

Now as I read, feeling myself getting deliciously provoked by reading these books view on women. Like when a lady in a professional job, who stand on her own two feet and do not need men are kidnapped to Gor and made a slave because as they say her unwillingness to be submissive are killing men. And being provoked or angry or getting some sort of emotional response from a book is good. Slowly I begun to see some good ideas in the Gor books. Ideas of individuality. Of in a way the glory of the human Spirit and how we are killing it with our present way of life. I do not know if the author have done it by accident or by choice, but combining ideas from many ancient cultures, like Vikings, Romans and so on, and added in some various philosophies, he have manages to create a unique idea, a philosophy who works very well to create a lifestyle around. But if you like science fiction, you do not need to be a Gorean to like these books. All you need is a desire to read something a little different. Now to your questions.

quote:

Do Goreans hate women?


No Goreans do not hate women. I have met some Goreans who have joined the lifestyle not becouse of a desire to live with the philosophies, but because they where afraid and hateful of women, and being Goreans allowed them an excuse to look down at women. But most Goreans I know love women in all her forms. Goreans however think there is a difference between women and men. And that trying to make women and men the same, and trying to force women and men to have the same place in society harms both sexes. Now, how much a given Gorean put into this vary allot. Me and my free companion think that most women for example do not make good rules, but that some do, that we can not in a lifestyle who values individuality see everyone as the same. Other Goreans I know think a woman should never be in charge of anything and should always be a servant to men, most fall somewhere in between. However 99,99 percent of the Goreans I know celebrate women in her nature. Most of us simply do not think that women should have a man's place in society and men should not have a woman's place.

quote:

Is there any room in Gorean philosophy for a female "Top" if a female adhered to the standard values that define a "Top"?


Being Gorean is not about BDSM or Tops or bottoms. If a female Gorean had a interest in BDSM there is nothing in the philosophy who says she can not get her kicks out of whipping someones behind. Just as there is nothing who say she can not have model cars or horseback riding as a hobby.

quote:

Are all men "Top" even if they are lacking in the standard values that define a good "Top"?


Gorean men are not Tops, they are men. Gorean lifestyle is not about BDSM. It is not about being a Top or a bottom or who spanks who's butt. It is about men and women being who they are and living as nature intends. Some also like to keep slaves or do things you would call BDSM, for those yes most of the time the men are the Tops, but this is a hobby, not a part of what being Gorean is.

quote:

How important is it to a Gorean that it be acknowledged that Gorean practice is superior (more intense, loving, stable, natural, correct, whatever) to "lesser" forms of BDSM?


Gorean lifestyle is not BDSM. Let me try to explain it this way. Gorean lifestyle is about a philosophy. A philosophy who if I am going to describe it quickly is about being who you are, and being willing to fight for your ideas for what you think is right. It is about living in a way most natural to you. And stop denying that you are a glorious, human animal. It is about that the only thing you really own, is what you can defend. This includes yourself. Now this is the philosophy. Now some Goreans hold slaves. That part of the lifestyle is a very small part. And many Goreans do not have slaves. But those that do, I guess that small part will touch on BDSM. Now look at it this way. The slavery aspect of Gorean lifestyle is like horses to a farmer. Some farmers keep horses. But keeping horses is not what being a farmer is about, and many, many farmers do not keep horses and have no desire to either.

quote:

To be a Gorean, do you have to be 24/7 or is there any room/respect for moderation or "play"?


Gorean lifestyle is not about BDSM play it is about philosophy. Yes I have my philosophy 24/7 every week of the year. It is how I look at life. I am a Gorean when I play playstation. I am a Gorean when I feed my cat. I am a Gorean when I sit on the training on my way to visit my mother. I am a Gorean every minute every day, every activity I do, because it is a philosophy I identify with.

quote:

What lifestyle in the BDSM spectrum do Goreans find most distasteful, debased, threatening, or wrong?


Some Goreans think you should not inflict pain for pleasure. Most do not care what pepole in the BDSM community do. I am a Gorean and a BDSMer. And to me as long as pepole are happy with what they do and do not harm anyone who do not wish to be harmed, pepole can do whatever they like as far as I am concerned. I do not want to be bedroom police for other pepole.

quote:

Outside of the Gor books, are there any published works about being a Gorean that you would recommend to someone with these sorts of stupid questions?


There are no published books. But I do recommend this online magazine. There are a archive button so you can read all the editions. http://www.pantheus.com/TGV.shtml 

quote:

How do practicing Goreans feel about "online only" Goreans?


What sort of online only. Do you mean like holding to the Gorean lifestyle but living in a place with no other Goreans so communication happen over the Internet. For in that case my opinion of those is, it suck to be alone and have no one one who share ones ideas to talk with. Thank the Heavens for Internet.

But if you mean online roleplayers. 45 year old house wives with five kids to play the sexy slave girl ulla on the chat rooms having cybersex with ulla's online Master who is played by a eighteen year old high school senior. Then I think these sort of pepole are role players. Nothing wrong with roleplaying. Roleplaying is fun. But playing a Gorean line makes you no more a Gorean than playing Vampire the Masquerade will give you fangs.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 5:39:51 AM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 387
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask

Well, ok, without respect to any of the rules you consider me to have set please explain the statement "Gor has nothing to do with BDSM".



There is a very simple way to answer this, in my opinion...BDSM is something you do.  Gor is something you are.  Gor is not an activity, or series of activities, it is a mindset, a philosophical standing.  As Tim said, read the FAQ thread, or, much much better...get over yourself and READ THE FUCKING BOOKS.

quote:

And just as a note, I'm a little confused. I would have no problem explaining evolution to someone without mentioning Darwin. Would you?


OK...you want an easier one to understand?  Ask someone to teach you calculus, without discussing math, or ask someone to teach you Chinese, who doesn't know Chinese.  There is a favored quote of mine, from George Bernard Shaw:

"When a man who has no knowledge of a subject, teaches that subject to another who has no aptitude for it, and gives him a letter of proficiency in it, the latter has achieved the education of a gentleman"

You want to learn?  Learn.  Avail yourself of the materials necessary to do so.  Amazingly, there are some, rather easy to define...READ THE FUCKING BOOKS.

John, AKA Dinnardin


< Message edited by Dinnardin -- 9/14/2009 5:40:31 AM >

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 7:23:38 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Are all men "Top" even if they are lacking in the standard values that define a good "Top"?



Yes, save for those men who consider themselves slaves, but as mentioned earlier, they are most often shunned except those who properly approach any given situation with the Free with the utmost respect, that is also a rarity.



quote:

I have never read the Gor books. I realize that I probably should, just to round out my sci-fi geek cred if nothing else, but if your only response is some version of "RTFM" that's not really helpful and serves only to diminish my desire to ever do so. Nor am I looking for lengthy quotes from the books, or flowery attempts to approximate them


I highly doubt you will ever witness a serious Gorean sugar coating  anything much less making flowery attempts for any reason what so ever.
Also if you feel the Gor books would pretty much only serve to amp up your Geek knowledge. then you have no solid reason to be here except maybe to ruffle a few feathers?

No one is going to do the work for you, no matter how brazen you were about not wanting this and not looking for that.
As was pointed out Gor is in No way shape or form BDSM it has no connecting fibers that make them similar or sort of like, etc etc.

Yes, there are Dominant women in Gor..to a limit. when push comes to shove, so to speak a FW will defer to men, providing they are indeed a man(and thats a whole other discussion)

Well wishes.
FW Maahsatti



_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 8:29:08 AM   
estah


Posts: 491
Joined: 5/2/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings dominomask,

Could you please explain what you mean with the following journal entry:
9/13/2009 8:42:56 AM  All goreans have aspergers.

Discuss.???


verity

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 10:14:20 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		G'morning,

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
I have never read the Gor books. {...} Nor am I looking for lengthy quotes from the books, or flowery attempts to approximate them. {...} I have little real reason for wanting to devote the time to reading the source material{...}


I see...you don't wish to do much reading. Let me see how well I can accomodate you in a purely text-based venue... o,O


quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
Do Goreans hate women?


No.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
Is there any room in Gorean philosophy for a female "Top" if a female adhered to the standard values that define a "Top"?


Yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
Are all men "Top" even if they are lacking in the standard values that define a good "Top"?


No.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
How important is it to a Gorean that it be acknowledged that Gorean practice is superior (more intense, loving, stable, natural, correct, whatever) to "lesser" forms of BDSM?


Irrelevant, therefore unimportant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
To be a Gorean, do you have to be 24/7 or is there any room/respect for moderation or "play"?


One either IS Gorean OR one plays at it. It's not possible to do both.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
What lifestyle in the BDSM spectrum do Goreans find most distasteful, debased, threatening, or wrong?


ANY 'lifestyle' that promotes sameness & denies difference.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
Outside of the Gor books, are there any published works about being a Gorean that you would recommend to someone with these sorts of stupid questions?


No.

quote:

ORIGINAL: dominomask
How do practicing Goreans feel about "online only" Goreans?


Ambivalent usually, irritated often & disgusted occassionally.

My apologies for the length of some of my responses. Those who know me can attest to the difficulty I have in being brief when discussing matters of import.

Good luck in your quest to learn without reading.

~Kimveri


_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 10:39:43 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Are all men "Top" even if they are lacking in the standard values that define a good "Top"


All men are considered Master's unless, as I said earlier, they are slaves.
I am not sure that is the answer you are looking for or whether or not it is what your question implied, but thats my belief.

A Gorean man or woman for that matter does not need to or rather it is not *required* that He/she be the ultimate truth sayer, honor bringer, respect giver, etc etc etc. However within the philos these are what I would call and what I personally feel to be among Gor's solid foundation'.

They are among the many strong reasons IMO, that set's Gorean Philos apart from the mundane complacency many people end up getting trapped within , in life.

Maahsatti


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 10:53:55 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Yes, save for those men who consider themselves slaves, but as mentioned earlier, they are most often shunned except those who properly approach any given situation with the Free with the utmost respect, that is also a rarity.


I do not agree. If a Gorean have an interest in BDSM, one do not need to be a slave to bottom. I know several Dominant men, not Goreans though, who like to bottom from time to time in the bedroom and if you call them slaves they would take great offense. They are machosistists and get aroused by feeling pain, that do not mean they are submissive. Just as there are women who get aroused by Topping, by giving pain without being Dominant.

When I was a slave I was also a sadist. I am still a sadist, and I have topped at times. But I was not then, and I am not not as a free woman Domiant. I have little interest in a submissive male. And when I Top, which I do not do very often. I seek strong, Dominant men who just happen to like feeling pain as part of sex, not slaves.

Also, what I do or do not do in the bedroom have nothing to do with my identity as a Gorean free woman any more than the fact that I like chocolate milkshake or that my favorite color is purple have to do with me being Gorean. It is a thing that I like to do. I am into BDSM and I am a Gorean, the two are not the same thing. So when one is talking about Topping as in BDSM topping, there is no reason why a Gorean free woman with those desires could not do that.

I wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 11:02:47 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings

quote:

Could you please explain what you mean with the following journal entry:
9/13/2009 8:42:56 AM  All goreans have aspergers.

Discuss.???


I was wondering a bit about this as well when I saw it at the lady's profile. But Ok I will discuss.

Do all Goreans have Asperger?

No, in fact most do not. There is more common among pepole with Asperger syndrome to choose alternative lifestyles, including Gorean lifestyles then other pepole. So in most alternative groups you will find a few pepole with Asperger syndrome. However the wast majority of Goreans I know, do not have Asperger syndrome. Dominomask, can you please tell me why you would ask such a question? Or is it that you assume that anyone who lives different than the norm have Asperger?

I wish you both well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 11:22:58 AM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		howdy,

quote:

original:dominomask
"My exposure to the prose is from a spoof entitled "houseplants of Gor" that was read to me by a friend. My exposure to Gorean individuals has been largely online, and overwhelmingly unpleasant."


In my personal collection of coffee mugs, I have one that is decorated with a cartoon taken from Gahan Wilsons "dark side" series.  It depicts a cow strung up by it's front legs, belly forward, with a bucket under it's udders, and a thug holding a flogger. The scene is captioned "The horrible truth behind whipped cream".

I suppose that some folks might question the legitimacy of bdsm practices in the field of dairy farming. Or develop an antipathy towards dairy products. Or, any number of prejudices based on.... that cartoon.

Admonitions to "read the fucking books" are not an attempt to waste anyone's time, but are intended to say, "expose yourself to the philosophy, judge it for what it is, without it's being filtered through the prejudices of other people. If you find something there that resonates, pursue it. If you find nothing that is relevant to your life, then, by all means, dismiss it." At least, the decision of whether or not to accept a personal philosophy that emphasizes individual freedom and personal accountability will have been made, by the person, who will be accountable... by their own free choice.

good luck
Unbuilder 


_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 11:25:51 AM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 387
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline 		Is it wrong that that cartoon made me want more dairy products?

John, AKA Dinnardin

(in reply to Unbuilder)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 12:30:37 PM   
dominomask


Posts: 35
Joined: 4/30/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: estah

Greetings dominomask,

Could you please explain what you mean with the following journal entry:
9/13/2009 8:42:56 AM  All goreans have aspergers.

Discuss.???


verity



Certainly.

It's a play on the old meme about "all cats have aspergers"

I had just come from a conversation with an online Gorean and an attempt to enlighten myself about the lifestyle from some message boards and coming up only against things that made me feel, to put it mildly, annoyed by a lack of validity and grace. I was angry. So I put something angry in my blog. It's ugly and I get that. It's what got me thinking.

For the record, I don't think that all goreans have aspergers...but I did get some responses from people who didn't feel the comment was too far off the mark. That is ugly too. Hence my hope to find a place to start correcting that in myself and, hopefully, others later.

(in reply to estah)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Wishing to open my mind - 9/14/2009 2:49:07 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings dominomask,

One thing you will find is that most Goreans don't care too much about being graceful with words. Usually we say straight forward what we mean, and the bluntness of it often comes across rude or ungraceful to those that wish to sugar coat their words. You will also find that many do not care what others think, so if your mind is opened after some discussion here, fine, and if it is not, then it doesn't really effect me in any way. Most people make judgments on Goreans because of ignorance, and at least you are asking questions (though they are the same questions we seem come by all the time).

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to dominomask)
Profile   Post #: 20
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