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Severity - 3/10/2006 1:07:38 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		OK this is sparked by a comment by my old friend IB in another thread where he was agreeing with someone about their aproach being less severe than the Gorean one toward the D/s dynamic.

I see the Gorean approach to be diffrent, certainly to my own, in one or two minor areas, but I haven't yet seen them as particularly severe in comparison to a lot of other approaches. Do Goreans see themselves as "More severe" than other D/s relationships and if so in what way?

I was going to drop IB a mail with it but decided to open it up to the Goreans here as a more general question.

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Severity - 3/10/2006 6:44:13 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		This question set me thinking and reading a largish number pf posts by Dominants from non Gorean areas. I’d have to say that we are harsher than most if not all other areas except perhaps the traditional Old Guard, of whom I know very little.

Why are we harsher that other areas? I believe it is due to several things.


  • As Goreans, we demand a higher standard from ourselves than others do of them selves. ~ We set exceptionally high standards of behavior

  • We are oriented towards ritual and protocol


  • We demand more from our slaves ~ We demand absolute submission.

  • Goreans do not suffer fools gladly (This varies from person to person)


I have generalised which is not a good thing to do, but the guestion, by it's nature was a general one too. Obviously the "Harshness" will vary from person to person and enclave/group to enclave/group. Others can probably add to this or come up with a completely view and explanation.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Severity - 3/10/2006 7:05:39 PM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
Hello, Master IronBear *smiles*

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

As Goreans, we demand a higher standard from ourselves than others do of them selves. ~ We set exceptionally high standards of behavior


Wouldn't this depend on the individual? I know many people who set an incredibly high standard for their own life and that of those who rely on their guidance/control etc. Some of these people are Gorean but many of them are not.

quote:

We are oriented towards ritual and protocol


While I believe that many Goreans (especially those online) are very ritual and protocol oriented, I have met many who aren't even the slightest bit into rituals or high protocol. On the flipside, I have met many BDSM folks who have massive amounts of ritual and protocol.

quote:

We demand more from our slaves ~ We demand absolute submission.


Again I wonder if this is dependent on each individual rather than on a blanket "Gorean" mass. My owner has required nothing less than my absolute surrender to his will, however he is not Gorean. Several of his friends who own slaves also demand the same but they are not Gorean either.

quote:

Goreans do not suffer fools gladly (This varies from person to person)

I think the last part of this sums it up for the whole thing.... Harshness, Severity, Strictness, Kindness, Ritual, Protocol - you name it - in my opinion it will all depend on the individual.

quote:

I have generalised which is not a good thing to do, but the guestion, by it's nature was a general one too. Obviously the "Harshness" will vary from person to person and enclave/group to enclave/group. Others can probably add to this or come up with a completely view and explanation.


I have found that most of the Gorean masters that I have met are less harsh with their property than most BDSM owners I have met. It has been my experience, however, that Goreans are harsher with other people's property.

There are always exceptions but for the most part, I don't see one lifestyle to be harsher than the other. I find them to all pretty much depend on the people involved. In my time spent amongst Goreans that I have met from online, I can honestly say that where the men are concerned, in many cases (not all) they have been much harsher online than offline. And in some cases they seemed like two different people.

Well wishes!! :)

-Cav's ally

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Severity - 3/10/2006 8:16:56 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1482
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal Raven Muse

quote:

As Goreans, we demand a higher standard from ourselves than others do of them selves. ~ We set exceptionally high standards of behavior


We are oriented towards ritual and protocol



We demand more from our slaves ~ We demand absolute submission.


Goreans do not suffer fools gladly (This varies from person to person)


I could not agree more.

I Wish You Well

Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 4:55:26 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Greetings,

Personally, from what i have observed in the Men, i don't see it as more severe, i see it as more definitive. Severity varies as ally says, based on the Men. You have lazy masters on Gor who expect a slave to master herself through Men who expect and demand and make happen a slave living up to the expectations of value he holds her to and sees her as. The reason i say its more definitive because when you have Men who when they identify fully with Gor, that is their focus not only in their relationships but in their life.

Yes i know there are Men out there who don't want to claim gor, or say they idenify with it but they will claim they are gor, which confuses me greatly but if people want to be melting pots its their choice lol but the point is, to me they don't have the "focus" which makes their identify more definitive to Gor, Gor is then only a part not the whole and focus..

I have also observed that within the BDSM etc realm there is so much inconsistency because it seems people are afraid of labels and wants to make everything arbitrary that there is no real definitive nature so in my opinion it comes across very chaotic and has no real expectations of others except everyone decides what its all about in their own way and its okay because everything is politically correct and you don't judge others.

To those who identify as Gorean, there seems to be a core because they openly and consciously identify their core beliefs as a specifici aspect that allows for a commeraderie among others who understand where they are coming from -- the Gorean books and philosophies, Goreans do judge (which in other realms is like a capitol offense). Which this alone brings on the severity idea from a realm which seems tobe content to not have any real focus except what an individual decides. You get the whiners of "why are you judging me" Goreans live by and make decisions based on their beliefs...which comes across many times as severe and "boxed in". I think what also brings on the severity idea is the fact that this is a Male dominanted life. Which in this society scares the heck out of most people, Men and women alike. The catering of "slave chooses""slave has rights""slave directs and decides the relationship direction""slave has the right to say no" etc etc and you can probably think of many more, is not true when a woman is within a relations as a slave to a Gorean Man. In my opinion when observing the BDSM realm, it seems like all i see are people who basically are slaveminists. People who are slave advocates and want to make it all politically correct so everyone feels warm and fuzzy. That they somehow have to "help" the injustice that is women who are slaves. I see in the other realms that people want to make mastery and the place of the Man contingent upon the slave. In Gor, a Man doesn't need a slave to be a Master. The slave may compliment the Man but she is not a necessity in defining his life as a Gorean.

On some level, i almost think that people outside of gor see gor as severe simply because most people are afraid of a decision that may ultimately mold them into an actuality of putting actions to words. where people will tell them they don't get it and it hurts their feelings and they cry and run back to the other realms where there is a little bit of everything so they can say whatever they like and if they switch around its okay because they don't judge and Goreans are so mean and so severe and so arrogant. In view of other goreans it will force them to put up or shut up, and it really doesn't allow for a lot of wriggle room, you either are, you know you are, you show you are, and you put actions to words and you fit in a certain focus and ideal of what and who you are.

Just my thoughts from what i have observed of the other realms (i will admit my opinions come simply from observation not participation in these other realms), and what i have observed but also know of Gorean.

To many definitive means severe.
angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/11/2006 5:09:35 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 8:28:47 AM   
lisaSea


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves.

I almost brushed this question aside, but then in light of what has happened here I decided to respond.

Master has been hospitalized since Wed, with what looked like a major heart attack, (severe pain from the shoulder down, radiating across the back). It turns out, he ruptured a disk in his neck, which sends the same pain factor as the heart would.
When they hear pain in the left arm, people tend to panic, especially doctors. (and now that the worst is almost over, I can admit to being a basketcase too!)

Ok, for all intents and purposes I am telling this to a board of strangers, (except for three or four people we have personally met) because of the question posed.

I agree with ally, the severity depends on the person(s) involved. I have witnessed some very high protocol behavior in non gorean households, because it pleased those participating. We, (because Master doesn't find it pleasing), don't have rituals or set protocol.

I was thrust into the position of "control", briefly while Master was unable to talk, someone had to discuss with the emergency crew, to take charge and admit him to the hospital, discuss with doctors and staff, enlightening them of his allergies or previous medical conditions. I was still serving him, seeing to his needs and doing what I could to make sure he was comfortable, (that included chasing down lazy nurses and barking a bit).

There was no usage of the "M" word when I spoke softly to him or bathed his face with a cool washcloth, (seems there are always people flittering around) There is an underlying "knowing", it doesn't have to be spoken or shown with rituals. This is how we have observed others also living within this life, not alot of outward signs, it is felt and shines from within.

We talked about this subject not too long ago among those we visit, it was generally felt that the "fresher" someone is from online, the more ritualistic they are. As time goes on and the depth of surrender grows deeper and deeper, less is required. Things become second nature. Again, this is simply how it was discussed, general feelings, not all will agree.

Those we know with a few years under their belt, tend to operate like a well oiled machine, each knowing their part and place and moving smoothly.

I don't feel this life is severe Master, nor do I see many rituals or protocols among those we visit. I realize this is just one small handful of people however, this is simply my observations (smiles).

I pray my words make some sense, I had things worked out as to how I wished them to come across, but sometimes things dont always follow the plan.

lisa{Sea's}






_____________________________

I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 9:16:51 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		greetings,

Lisa, firstly, i am very sorry that your master became ill, I am relieved that it is not his heart. master and myself wish him a speedy recovery.

As to the OP...

edana would beg to offer that in her belief, severity is subjective. what might be severe to one, would not be to another. Master likes a high degree of protocol, but the funny thing is... the things i thought were severe at first, are not now. for instance kneeling when he enters the room... now, its habit. calling him Master in public, it's just habit. to me that is like his name. serving his dinner to him from my knees. What i like about it is the visable difference in how i see myself in relation to him. But, if those things changed or softened, i would still be his slave. he is who he is to me. based on the fact he is my owner, a man, and a good man at that. i see him as powerful. i respect him, and feel humble around him. Yes i am glad he keeps me in a "severe" way... but i dont think that is why i remain his devoted slave.

the tightest bonds are the ones around her heart.

_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to RavenMuse)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 9:47:29 AM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		I wish your Master and you all the best for his speedy recovery.

_____________________________

Krys

(in reply to lisaSea)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 2:36:19 PM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Yes i know there are Men out there who don't want to claim gor, or say they idenify with it but they will claim they are gor, which confuses me greatly but if people want to be melting pots its their choice lol but the point is, to me they don't have the "focus" which makes their identify more definitive to Gor, Gor is then only a part not the whole and focus..


Why would a person who didn't call him/herself Gorean be a melting pot?

quote:

I have also observed that within the BDSM etc realm there is so much inconsistency because it seems people are afraid of labels and wants to make everything arbitrary that there is no real definitive nature so in my opinion it comes across very chaotic and has no real expectations of others except everyone decides what its all about in their own way and its okay because everything is politically correct and you don't judge others.


I've never met anyone into BDSM who was afraid of a label before. I've met many who choose not to wear certain labels for whatever reason. The reason BDSM is so broad while Gor is not is simple: BDSM is not a lifestyle in itself. BDSM is just an acronym that covers a bunch of stuff. There are a lot of people who live various types of alternative lifestyles or who participate in certain practices that fit beneath that acronym, but the letters "B, D, S, & M" don't mean anything except Bondage, Discipline, Sadism, and Masochism. The term "BDSM lifestyle" is just a simple way of letting another person know that they participate in one or all of those things.

As for being judgemental, I find a lot of people who practise B&D or S&M to be very judgemental just like everyone else. Some may strive for tolerance but there are just as many intolerant, judgemental people in BDSM as there are anywhere else.

quote:

To those who identify as Gorean, there seems to be a core because they openly and consciously identify their core beliefs as a specifici aspect that allows for a commeraderie among others who understand where they are coming from -- the Gorean books and philosophies, Goreans do judge (which in other realms is like a capitol offense).


Judging happens all the time. People as a general rule are judgemental. A label or acronym won't change that *grin*

quote:

Which this alone brings on the severity idea from a realm which seems tobe content to not have any real focus except what an individual decides. You get the whiners of "why are you judging me"


Why should someone (aside from property) focus on something that someone else decides is right for them? Isn't it important for each person to focus on their own individual choices? If everyone starts focusing on what everyone else thinks they should or shouldn't do or be, then they all wind up being sheeple, following behind with their nose stuffed blindly into the next sheeple's ass. That isn't very Gorean to me. As for the whiners you speak of - they're everywhere (Including Gor). *grin* Not just under the BDSM umbrella.

quote:

Goreans live by and make decisions based on their beliefs...which comes across many times as severe and "boxed in". I think what also brings on the severity idea is the fact that this is a Male dominanted life. Which in this society scares the heck out of most people, Men and women alike. The catering of "slave chooses""slave has rights""slave directs and decides the relationship direction""slave has the right to say no" etc etc and you can probably think of many more, is not true when a woman is within a relations as a slave to a Gorean Man. In my opinion when observing the BDSM realm, it seems like all i see are people who basically are slaveminists. People who are slave advocates and want to make it all politically correct so everyone feels warm and fuzzy. That they somehow have to "help" the injustice that is women who are slaves. I see in the other realms that people want to make mastery and the place of the Man contingent upon the slave. In Gor, a Man doesn't need a slave to be a Master. The slave may compliment the Man but she is not a necessity in defining his life as a Gorean.


In my years of involvement with people into BDSM, I have never met anyone like you describe above. Where do you find these people? People who think that the slave should direct the relationship, make the choices, etc.? I can understand a slave having rights or even the right to say no (we do, after all, live in a civilized nation) but most M/s couples (or triads) that I know who fit beneath the BDSM umbrella believe that while a slave may have all sorts of rights, she faces the consequences for exercising them. Now when it comes to those who participate in something other than M/s, you may find something different but a slave is a slave is a slave to me and to those I associate with - BDSM or otherwise.

I disagree with your analogy about being a Master. In Gor, a man doesn't need to own a slave to be granted the title "Master" however donning a label does not a Master make if you get what I'm saying.

quote:

On some level, i almost think that people outside of gor see gor as severe simply because most people are afraid of a decision that may ultimately mold them into an actuality of putting actions to words. where people will tell them they don't get it and it hurts their feelings and they cry and run back to the other realms where there is a little bit of everything so they can say whatever they like and if they switch around its okay because they don't judge and Goreans are so mean and so severe and so arrogant. In view of other goreans it will force them to put up or shut up, and it really doesn't allow for a lot of wriggle room, you either are, you know you are, you show you are, and you put actions to words and you fit in a certain focus and ideal of what and who you are

Just my thoughts from what i have observed of the other realms (i will admit my opinions come simply from observation not participation in these other realms), and what i have observed but also know of Gorean.


I usually very much enjoy what you have to say, angel, but I find the above to be bordering on the offensive. Not because you passed judgement but rather because you did so without having participated in the offline, real, up close and personal BDSM community. One could easily make general sweeping statements about Goreans based on what they have observed in some online forums and chatrooms (i.e. they act like a bunch of trekkies and roll dice and swing swords like adolescent boys playing D&D or... It's a bunch of men acting all puffed up and domly in a chatroom while they whine and beg the girl who just earned her red silks for cyber sex in a pm box) but that wouldn't be correct either. There are a LOT of self-labeled Goreans out there doing those things but that doesn't mean every Gorean acts this way.

I have lived and walked for several years as a part of both communities and I've spent the better part of 8 years trying to bridge the gap so that at least people won't have these misguided opinions as to what the other is all about. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard a Gorean say "BDSM slaves are subbie brats" or a BDSM practitioner say "Goreans are a bunch of loopy sci-fi escapists" my owner would indeed be a very rich man.

Goreans have a basic framework of beliefs. They do their best to adhere to them and apply them to their lives in many different ways. Some are severe, some are not.

BDSM practitioners are a very diverse group of people. Each person or subgroup may have a basic framework of beliefs. They do their best adhere to them and apply them to their lives in many different ways. Some are severe and some are not.

Well wishes, angel. :)

Cav's ally

P.S. lisa, I am SO glad that it was not your owner's heart... I can't imagine how painful it must be though. I hope that he feels much better soon.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 3:30:37 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
This question set me thinking and reading a largish number pf posts by Dominants from non Gorean areas. I’d have to say that we are harsher than most if not all other areas except perhaps the traditional Old Guard, of whom I know very little.


Well as you know old friend, I myself don't choose to take on the lable Gorean, though I do share a number of the ideals that are held too.
quote:


  • As Goreans, we demand a higher standard from ourselves than others do of them selves. ~ We set exceptionally high standards of behavior


    • I most certainly don't see this as a trait particular to Goreans. Though from our many exchanges it is definatly an area you and I have in common. But I see it in a number of others as well.

    quote:

  • We are oriented towards ritual and protocol


    • Are rituals and protocol necessaraly harsh? The few bits of ritual and protocol I hold every girl too are designed to make things easier, primaraly on her. Others I add as and where needed as appropriate for that individual relationship.

    The rest I tend to take a less formal, more flexable aproach.... Rituals and protocol bind the Master as much as the Slave and I preffer to be free to enjoy her as my mood takes me.

    quote:


  • We demand more from our slaves ~ We demand absolute submission.


    • And this differs from my non-gorean approach how? I don't just demand her body, but her heart and mind as well. Her thoughts and emotions as open to me as the rest of her. Yes that means she is not only allowed to have opinions of her own, but expected to and to share them, knowing I am interested in them and consider them....... And then to accept MY decision even if it conflicts with that opinion.

    quote:

  • Goreans do not suffer fools gladly (This varies from person to person)


    • Again not a trait particular to a Gorean... but at last one I would agree tends to bring accusations of harshness. I have had many such accusations when I have turned my back on such fools rather than allow them to continue to waste my time.

    quote:

    I have generalised which is not a good thing to do, but the guestion, by it's nature was a general one too.


    Oh the question was one of generalisations old friend and I am not surprized at the answers I am seeing from various posters so far. I just wanted to see who agreed with viewing the Goreans in general as being harsher.

    It being the general impression from the Men that they ARE harsher and the general impression coming from some of the girls being that they are not, is just about what I expected to see

    _____________________________

    This above all: to thine own self be true,
    And it must follow, as the night the day,
    Thou canst not then be false to any man.

    Owner of metalmiss

    (in reply to IronBear)
    Profile   Post #: 10
    RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 4:08:08 PM   
    barelynangel


    Posts: 6233
    Status: offline     		lisa,

    i am glad to hear your owner is going to be okay, and will keep you both in my thoughts.

    angel


    ******

    Hi ally,

    First of all, If you read what i said, i never said those who did not call themselves gor were melting pots. It was not said with a negative connotation.

    if you read what i said, i did say etc after BDSM which implies other things. As you said there is so much incorporated into other realms there is no real focus unless it is to the individual. Which i believe i did say. However, i should have taken it a step deeper as the original Op said "other D/s relationships." i was generalizing and saw it as groups.

    As for judging i see more whining from people in the communities i have observed about not judging them, perhaps it is different where you are, i think they even have a saying which i constantly hear -- my kink is okay and your kink is okay (something along those lines). But like i said, i simply observed them, i didn't participate. They are so into screaming about not judging them that these communitiesare unstable and use to be together and are not split and i believe split again. i don't know. Maybe the communities you have observed are different. Its all based on experience, and the experience i had observing left me unbalanced, confused, and overall bewildered because not one person i talked to actually had a set of beliefs that didn't somehow say everything is okay and any question posed the basic answer seemed to be "whatever you wish it to be," very vague and unfocused and it was almost as if they were afraid not to be politically correct. So, sorry, in my observations of the relationships even, i honestly didn't see any that had definitive beliefs, it was very make it up as you go along idea and aspect.

    Actually, i never said anything about donning the title of Master ally. I stated that "In Gor, a Man doesn't need a slave to be a Master. The slave may compliment the Man but she is not a necessity in defining his life as a Gorean. " Though i do agree donning a title of "Master" does not a Master make.

    Whether you personally want to be part of both worlds allyis your adventure, life, decision, its not everyones. grins teasingly, if your family was divided something tells me you would probably be the peacemaker between the two. that is a rough role to take on and much times it is a thankless job.

    i misread the OP and dealt in generalizations, but even within the generalization i did state that the other realms many times come down to individuals and their beliefs. I see many things in black and white, which is why it is difficult for me to roam in all realms. Some gray is coming in i try and see it. As i said, i don't see Gor as severe but definitive.

    angel



    _____________________________


    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
    R.W. Emerson


    (in reply to allyC)
    Profile   Post #: 11
    RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 6:30:40 PM   
    IronBear


    Posts: 9008
    Joined: 6/19/2005
    From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
    Status: offline     		Because the whole subject is so very subjective, my final statement in my original posts is:

    quote:

    Obviously the "Harshness" will vary from person to person and enclave/group to enclave/group. Others can probably add to this or come up with a completely view and explanation.


    Obviously, in such areas, we will more often express what we have encountered or experienced on personal levels. Those whom I have met and spent time with here (and agreed they are a small minority) fit my original comments. Yet I do know some in the general BDSM community who match the criterior I listed and could if their beliefs were changed become potentialy good members of a Gorean Community. We all know this. I have to agree with what some have stated in that what seems harsh to outsiders is not believed to be harsh by others and especially within a "harsh" relationship.....


    lisa,
    Our best wishes for a speedy recovery and a long healthy life for your Master.

    < Message edited by IronBear -- 3/11/2006 6:31:48 PM >

    _____________________________

    Iron Bear

    Master of Bruin Cottage

    http://www.bruincottage.org

    Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

    D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

    (in reply to barelynangel)
    Profile   Post #: 12
    RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 6:38:07 PM   
    lisaSea


    Posts: 340
    Joined: 8/27/2005
    Status: offline     		Greetings Masters and Mistresses, slaves..

    Thank you for the well wishes. I was told to occupy my time for a bit, I was hovering, lol
    Master is home and on the mend, I just need to quit staring at him like a watched kettle.

    As to the topic at hand... the replies so far have shown what I was trying to say, but probably didn't do so well. It is impossible to pigeon hole one trait or characteristic and call it solely gorean. With all the varying owners out there, each will add their own flavor to what pleases or displeases.

    I'm sure everyone has had the comment made about them that their owner is far too demanding or strict...and in turn has thought the same about another. This is not only in gorean homes.

    How many girls have been told slaves to gorean men are doormats? I don't know about you, but gets my dander up. This topic could follow dangerously close, I think...

    The one beauty in living this life is being true to the person in the mirror. Passionate, intense, all encompassing; encouraging self realization, all can be part of living a gorean life, but I would not include severity. Others who look in may see differently. But then I hear tell some feel it is cruel and degrading to kneel at the feet of men.

    Best of wishes for a weekend, hopefully ours will warm up about 25 degrees!

    lisa{Sea's}

    _____________________________

    I prefer to think of it as aged to perfection, rather then just plain getting older.

    http://www.geocities.com/house_of_sea

    (in reply to barelynangel)
    Profile   Post #: 13
    RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 6:58:48 PM   
    allyC


    Posts: 776
    Joined: 6/2/2004
    From: Las Vegas
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: barelynangel

    First of all, If you read what i said, i never said those who did not call themselves gor were melting pots. It was not said with a negative connotation.


    Howdy angel :)

    I didn't think it was a negative connotation. I was just asking why "Men out there who don't want to claim gor, or say they idenify with it but they will claim they are gor" were melting pots. I wasn't really sure what you meant at all by it so I was just askin'. :)

    quote:

    As for judging i see more whining from people in the communities i have observed about not judging them, perhaps it is different where you are, i think they even have a saying which i constantly hear -- my kink is okay and your kink is okay (something along those lines). But like i said, i simply observed them, i didn't participate. They are so into screaming about not judging them that these communitiesare unstable and use to be together and are not split and i believe split again. i don't know. Maybe the communities you have observed are different. Its all based on experience, and the experience i had observing left me unbalanced, confused, and overall bewildered because not one person i talked to actually had a set of beliefs that didn't somehow say everything is okay and any question posed the basic answer seemed to be "whatever you wish it to be," very vague and unfocused and it was almost as if they were afraid not to be politically correct. So, sorry, in my observations of the relationships even, i honestly didn't see any that had definitive beliefs, it was very make it up as you go along idea and aspect.


    I do find that a great many alternative lifestylers are very politically correct but I also find the opposite to be true as well. The reason you don't see any "definitive" beliefs I would imagine is because BDSM is something people "do" and a philosophy is something people live. I am sure that many BDSM practitioners have philosophies they live under. Just as a Gorean can be a Gorean without owning slaves, a BDSM participant can be a man/woman of principle without B, D, S, & M.

    The "my kink is okay, your kink is okay" is about kink - not about the way in which people live on an ethical level. Kink is what people do on a personal, private, and/or sexual level. The way they live their life may be something else entirely and the BDSM community doesn't preach tolerance for people who lack integrity, honesty, loyalty, strength, etc. In fact, a large portion of the alternative community, the leather community, has a motto which reads: "honor, truth, respect, and loyalty.

    quote:

    Actually, i never said anything about donning the title of Master ally. I stated that "In Gor, a Man doesn't need a slave to be a Master. The slave may compliment the Man but she is not a necessity in defining his life as a Gorean. " Though i do agree donning a title of "Master" does not a Master make.


    I have always viewed it this way: A man does not need a slave to be Gorean. A man, even if he doesn't own a slave will be referred to as Master by slaves. That does not, however, make him "a" Master. In my opinion, a Master is someone who has done the work and proactively done what it takes to master and enslave his property and he is one who takes responsibility for doing so. Not every male is a man - not every man is a Gorean and not every Gorean man is a Gorean Master - at least in my opinion.

    quote:

    Whether you personally want to be part of both worlds allyis your adventure, life, decision, its not everyones. grins teasingly, if your family was divided something tells me you would probably be the peacemaker between the two. that is a rough role to take on and much times it is a thankless job.


    Actually when it comes to most things, I don't like getting in the middle at all. I am not fond of being a mediator, but since my owner is a man who owns a slave and has friends who are Gorean and who are not Gorean - well such is my life then. It gets very difficult for me, being a part of both communities, to listen to so many mistruths and misconceptions all the time. I feel that if I see a problem (in this case what I view as a misconception) and I do nothing about it, then I become a part of that problem.

    Well wishes,

    Cav's ally

    (in reply to barelynangel)
    Profile   Post #: 14
    RE: Severity - 3/11/2006 8:08:26 PM   
    barelynangel


    Posts: 6233
    Status: offline     		Hi ally,

    Forgive any typos i make, a month of exhaustion has been catching up with me. What i was referring to is exactly what it is.. people who don't claim gorean, but say they are gorean but they also are everything else, tend to be what i view as melting pots. I am not saying and didn't say that people who do not have any view at all towards Gorean are melting pots.

    Philosophies will seem severe to people especially in an open community where they are openly discussed because they are belief systems. So when you have a community that has relationships that are based on specific philosophies it may seem severe because of its definitiveness and focus. In Gor the philosophies are put out there among a community of sorts, in BDSM as you have stated it is more individual based so they tend to get lost in the vastness of people incorporating BDSM etc and random belief systems into their lives, so the belief systems of the individuals are obscured by the general population and are as vast as the diverness of what makes up BDSM etc. Gor doesn't have that issue, there is a guideance among those who claim Gor a focus, though the specifics may be thrashed out occassionally, the generality is usually sound, therefore, it may seem severe and unflexible.

    Have a good night,

    angel


    _____________________________


    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
    R.W. Emerson


    (in reply to allyC)
    Profile   Post #: 15
    RE: Severity - 3/12/2006 5:07:37 AM   
    fyreredsub


    Posts: 3403
    Joined: 10/7/2005
    Status: offline     		greetings lisa

    good morning to you
    hopes your master makes a speed recovery

    this one liked what you said about being a doormat...

    that doesnt sit well here either

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: lisaSea

    Greetings Masters and Mistresses, slaves..

    Thank you for the well wishes. I was told to occupy my time for a bit, I was hovering, lol
    Master is home and on the mend, I just need to quit staring at him like a watched kettle.

    As to the topic at hand... the replies so far have shown what I was trying to say, but probably didn't do so well. It is impossible to pigeon hole one trait or characteristic and call it solely gorean. With all the varying owners out there, each will add their own flavor to what pleases or displeases.

    I'm sure everyone has had the comment made about them that their owner is far too demanding or strict...and in turn has thought the same about another. This is not only in gorean homes.

    How many girls have been told slaves to gorean men are doormats? I don't know about you, but gets my dander up. This topic could follow dangerously close, I think...

    The one beauty in living this life is being true to the person in the mirror. Passionate, intense, all encompassing; encouraging self realization, all can be part of living a gorean life, but I would not include severity. Others who look in may see differently. But then I hear tell some feel it is cruel and degrading to kneel at the feet of men.

    Best of wishes for a weekend, hopefully ours will warm up about 25 degrees!

    lisa{Sea's}



    _____________________________

    "Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

    (in reply to lisaSea)
    Profile   Post #: 16
    RE: Severity - 3/13/2006 1:25:22 PM   
    IronBear


    Posts: 9008
    Joined: 6/19/2005
    From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: IronBear

    This question set me thinking and reading a largish number pf posts by Dominants from non Gorean areas. I’d have to say that we are harsher than most if not all other areas except perhaps the traditional Old Guard, of whom I know very little.

    Why are we harsher that other areas? I believe it is due to several things.


    • As Goreans, we demand a higher standard from ourselves than others do of them selves. ~ We set exceptionally high standards of behavior

    • We are oriented towards ritual and protocol


    • We demand more from our slaves ~ We demand absolute submission.

    • Goreans do not suffer fools gladly (This varies from person to person)


    I have generalised which is not a good thing to do, but the guestion, by it's nature was a general one too. Obviously the "Harshness" will vary from person to person and enclave/group to enclave/group. Others can probably add to this or come up with a completely view and explanation.



    With my original responce, I was rather brusk and didn't expand my reasoning to expolain the thinking of what I posted. I've just had to do this to reply to an email from some one who I hold i the highest regard.. It seems reasonable that I should post that reply here to because it may answer those who disagreed with me..It's all a mater of perspective you see,,,,,

    As a group or structured lifestyle within the general BDSM scene as far as I am aware, there are only two such groups, Gorean Lifestylers and the Old Guard. As such I believe that my comments are reasonable and accurate. As a group we set exceptionally standards of behavior with the emphasis being on Honour, Integrity, Duty etc where as the balance of the BDSM Community may set such things as individuals not as a community as such. In the same light, as a group we demand higher standards from ourselves than others (as a group) do of them selves…. The wild card is for me the Old Guard for I have been told that they and the Gorean Lifestylers are very similar in outlook.

    I can draw a parallel with the Military. I was in the Australian SAS and then served in Vietnam as a combat officer with the US Special Forces. My statements regarding the Gorean Lifstylers v the general BDSM members (as a group) could be said about the special forces of any country. To some it is elitist yet for me one is a lifestyle and the other a profession. Yes I am guilty of being elitist regarding the military only but proud of the standards I have set for myself as a Gorean Lifestyler as such high standards can only drive me to strive to become all that I may…. Of course there are many as individuals will fall sadly short within the Gorean Lifestyle just as there will always be those without it who will match the standards set by the Gorean Lifestylers. One is an individual attempt and the other a group attempt.


    < Message edited by IronBear -- 3/13/2006 1:26:07 PM >

    _____________________________

    Iron Bear

    Master of Bruin Cottage

    http://www.bruincottage.org

    Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

    D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

    (in reply to IronBear)
    Profile   Post #: 17
    RE: Severity - 3/13/2006 2:49:07 PM   
    Angrylibrarian


    Posts: 214
    Joined: 8/10/2005
    Status: offline     		Slaveminist?

    to quote 'Mr slave' from southpark "oh jesus christ"

    (in reply to barelynangel)
    Profile   Post #: 18
    RE: Severity - 3/14/2006 6:23:59 AM   
    starshineowned


    Posts: 1551
    Joined: 4/19/2005
    From: Texas
    Status: offline
    quote:

    The reason you don't see any "definitive" beliefs I would imagine is because BDSM is something people "do" and a philosophy is something people live. I am sure that many BDSM practitioners have philosophies they live under.

    Extremely well put allyC.

    People who engage in BDSM enjoy the bantering and exchanges about what it is they Do.

    People who engage in Gor enjoy the bantering and exchanges about the way they Live.

    From what I have read over the past 10yrs from those living alternative life ways is that BDSM or Gor...all are rebels to the current Mainstream, and as Master brought up from discussion last night: Somewhere along the way from inception of Alternative Living we have all lost that sense of community to the point now that Everything has become grossly fragmented and Individualistic.

    You could not get 10 BDSM practitioners in the same room agreeing completely on one thing anymore than you could get 10 Goreans in the same room agreeing completely on one thing.

    Honor, Pride, Integrity, Strength, Trust, Responsibility, Respect, etc. are across the board and taken to heart or not by Humans in general. Morals and Ethics are long standing..BDSM and Gor are babys.


    starshine
    Happy slave of Master Delvin


    (in reply to allyC)
    Profile   Post #: 19
    RE: Severity - 3/21/2006 5:49:10 PM   
    MistressDREAD


    Posts: 2932
    Joined: 1/1/2004
    Status: offline
    quote:

    watched kettle


    watched kettles never boil over......
    just simmer around a while and all
    embers will burn them selfs out.

    (in reply to starshineowned)
    Profile   Post #: 20
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