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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 10:24:04 PM   
servantforuse


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Rule, the constitution applies to citizens of the United States. Not any one else.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 10:31:00 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Rule, the constitution applies to citizens of the United States. Not any one else.
Which ,if I was to accept your statement,would mean we have no legal authority over these people.....for as you have just stated they don't fall under the legal protections of that document....it would naturally follow that they can not be tried under any court that draws its authority from that document.Following your reasoning(to its natural conclusion) the OP is correct.....release them!

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 11/13/2009 10:41:46 PM >


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 10:39:45 PM   
servantforuse


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Then they are prisoners of war and should be kept in Gitmo until the war on terror is over. Which will be never. Now they will be tried just blocks from 911.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 10:43:17 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

Then they are prisoners of war and should be kept in Gitmo until the war on terror is over. Which will be never. Now they will be tried just blocks from 911.


Actually it should be held at Madison Square Garden. Thats where the other circus is held.

(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 10:44:16 PM   
slvemike4u


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ahhh now they are prisoners of war......then they fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention,do they not?
Pretty nice moral and legal box your boys Bush and Cheney put us in heh servant.
They are neither fish nor fowl...whatever shall we do with them?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 10:51:45 PM   
servantforuse


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If it were up to me. I would just shoot all of them. They would kill us if they had the chance,

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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 11:01:13 PM   
slvemike4u


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Was someone on here blathering about "moral supremacy" the other day(another thread entirely)
The point being,and not that I buy the moral supremacy thing,but how do we keep claiming that if we use reasoning like this ?
And when you say "shoot all of them" what exactly do you mean...I am willing to give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you aren't speaking of all Muslims....lets assume you just mean all who are presently being held in willbeurs favorite country club...Guantanomo Bay.Will you bother to ascertain guilt...by what method...degrees of involvement...a moral sliding scale of evil deeds .
Finally ,and I think this is a really really good idea...borrowed I believe from the Soviet Union...we could send the bill for the bullets to surviving family members....no need for the morally superior American taxpayer to pay for this clean up.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to servantforuse)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 11:21:50 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
I see. So youre maintaining that amendments that are silent with respect to an issue (who it applies to) expands those rights to parties not included in the the original document.

The mind boggles.

The amendments are not silent.
The 4th:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated

The 5th:
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;

The 6th:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district where in the crime shall have been committed,

Not right of the citizenry but right of the people. Not No citizen shall be held to answer but No person shall be held to answer.


The Constitution only applies to citizens. period.

No. No where at all does it say so and no law has ever been passed to make it so. Any such law would be struck down as unconstitutional since it would be at variance with the plain language of the document.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 11:31:27 PM   
slvemike4u


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But DomKen you have got to admit willbeur does present a compelling argument......allow me to break it down for you.....his opponent gathers information and presents it in a reasonable manner.....willbeur cuts and pastes it....refutes it with a simple sentence and ties it in a ribbon with a resounding "period."
Can't get much more succint nor final than that.....PERIOD.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 11:38:58 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

But DomKen you have got to admit willbeur does present a compelling argument......allow me to break it down for you.....his opponent gathers information and presents it in a reasonable manner.....willbeur cuts and pastes it....refutes it with a simple sentence and ties it in a ribbon with a resounding "period."
Can't get much more succint nor final than that.....PERIOD.



Unless of course, what gets copied is pure and utter BULLSHIT!, in which case, it should be called.  Not this time, though.  Constitutional protections apply to everyone who is brought into our civilian court system.  All the more reason not to make such a foolish choice with these enemies.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 11:45:16 PM   
slvemike4u


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Well Rich if not our civilian courts....where?They are clearly not prisoners of war as servant asserted...and if they are why weren't they afforded the protections of the Geneva Convention.
This is a can of worms that should never have been opened,this is what happens when you twist your own laws into a pretzel to accomadate one problem.....you find yourself with a whole new shitload of problems.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 11:52:05 PM   
TheHeretic


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Military tribunal, Mike.

BTW, you have mail off something you said earlier.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/13/2009 11:57:26 PM   
slvemike4u


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Got the mail....kicked myself in the ass.
Even with Military Tribunals there are problems.And the problems can be traced directly back to the Bush/Cheney decision to play fast and loose with our own laws.
Period.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/14/2009 5:11:59 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Nah...He just thinks they are guilty

Butch

I doubt he'd be resorting to a federal trial if he wasn't sure that whatsisface sheik mohammed was going to plead guilty. Maybe they can just a wave a confession they've waterboarded out of the lad over the last six years before the Judge and let him don a black cap...


So you think it is impossible for them to get fair trials in a civilian court...Or do you think they cannot get fair trials in the United States?

Just wondering where you stand.

Butch

I do wonder whether the fact that they're being tried in New York isn't to make sure the jury finds them guilty, yes.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to kdsub)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/14/2009 6:29:54 AM   
SpinnerofTales


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quote:

If it were up to me. I would just shoot all of them. They would kill us if they had the chancw ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If it were up to me. I would just shoot all of them. They would kill us if they had the chance,


I say this to you, Servant...but it applies equally to all those who seem so upset that we are trying to handle this matter as Americans as opposed to second rater copies of the terrorists:

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.
Fredrick Nietzche

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/14/2009 7:14:06 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I do wonder whether the fact that they're being tried in New York isn't to make sure the jury finds them guilty, yes.



no, I think it is because it is constitutional.

here are the snips from the US Constitution (and amendments (which is neither here nor there, they are part of the constituion)) that we constituionalists are concerned about seeing carried out lawfully in this matter:

Article I.
Section 9 - Limits on Congress
The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Article III.
Section. 1.
The judicial Power of the United States shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behaviour, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation, which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.
Section. 2.
The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State,--between Citizens of different States,--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.
In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.
The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.
Section. 3.
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

(*NB: the first 10 amendments are commonly known as the bill of rights)
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/14/2009 7:49:52 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpinnerofTales

quote:

If it were up to me. I would just shoot all of them. They would kill us if they had the chancw ORIGINAL: servantforuse

If it were up to me. I would just shoot all of them. They would kill us if they had the chance,


I say this to you, Servant...but it applies equally to all those who seem so upset that we are trying to handle this matter as Americans as opposed to second rater copies of the terrorists:

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster.
Fredrick Nietzche



Nietzche also summarized this administration quite well:

"Fanatics are picturesque, mankind would rather see gestures than listen to reasons. "

(in reply to SpinnerofTales)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/14/2009 7:51:05 AM   
mnottertail


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you should unblock me wilbur.........you look even more like a dumbass when you post behind me without knowing how I just cut you down.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/14/2009 7:53:45 AM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

ahhh now they are prisoners of war......then they fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention,do they not?


If they were uniformed combatants, then yes they are protected by the Geneva Convention.

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Free the Guantanamo Bay five! - 11/14/2009 7:57:20 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

ahhh now they are prisoners of war......then they fall under the protection of the Geneva Convention,do they not?


If they were uniformed combatants, then yes they are protected by the Geneva Convention.


which of course, they werent.

(in reply to Raiikun)
Profile   Post #: 60
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