quote:

she thinks they are complementary viewpoints, both a part of nature's order, that together help raise a child in a balanced way- the male and female ways offsetting one another and providing that balance.

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ORIGINAL: sabba

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hi Xian,

I think what you're experiencing right now is natural and you should embrace it. You're a mother. Soon you will have a responsibility to two children - you and your husband not only have to provide them with the material comforts of life but also have to instill in them values and strength that they will carry in them long after they've left your house.

A slave can't do that. A slave just says yes and obeys. A slave isn't a provider, a slave is the one being provided for, being told what to do and sheltered from responsibility.

I wish you the best,
Bella

greetings elisabella;

This is the kind of thinking that may lead others to assume that kajira have a "doormat" type mentality. You say, that it's the responsibility of the parents "to instill in them values and strength that they will carry in them long after they've left your house". Is there not value and strength in devotion and obedience? Adherence to one's principles? Standing up for what one believes in, even though it may not be what society as a whole prescribes to? What exactly is wrong with a child being raised in an environment where their parents are secure in their place and happy to be there? What is it about identifying as a slave makes this impossible, in your opinion? It may not be your idea of how to raise a child, but that makes it no less valid for the rest of the world.

A slave doesn't "just say yes and obey". OK, maybe some do, on the surface anyway. There will always be extremes and some that have a different interpretation of the philosophies......but in general most FM actually value a slave's opinion. There is this thing called "discussion" that many Free actually seem to enjoy. Is obedience expected in the end? Absolutely. That does not mean that the slave just nods her head like a Stepford Wife and smiles prettily.

How exactly is a slave "not a provider"? What they provide to a child is different than what the father/FM provides and frankly that's how it should be. Does a child need caring, love, nuturing, shelter, etc? How does being  a slave make a mother incapable of providing their child with these things? When a mother holds her child and kisses his scraped knee, is that not providing love and comfort for them? Do you honestly think it matters at that point if that mother is a slave or FW? Something as basic as feeding a child.....is a mother who cooks and prepares her child's meals not "providing" something to them?

"Told what to do" and"sheltered from responsibility". Wow. You must have some fairly negative interactions with slaves. Yes, slaves are told what to do. It still does not make a slave mindless, thoughtless and incapable of making a decision. Believe it or not, slaves make them all the time. A slave will just make them with their Master's guidelines and beliefs. Not really any different than why a vegetarian chooses not to eat meat. It's based on a set of beliefs/values.

How are slaves "sheltered from responsibility"? A slave is responsible to their Master. They may have many, many responsibilities from cleaning, work, producing income, a companion, and 1000 other ways to serve. Slaves are responsible for so many things. And yes, they are responsible for service and obedience as well.

Not exactly bad lessons to teach a child.....

well wishes,
sabba

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnnaOfAramis

Greetings kasumi,

Forgive me, but I am confused. The other thread you started said that you had not read the books yet, but here you refer to the philosophies that caused you to reject it. Did I misunderstand something?

Also I am unsure of some of the comments you made. I do not see that women are stripped of their basic rights because of their gender. There are many strong, independent, and respected Free Women here. I also do not think anyone will submit just because someone is a man. That someone generally has to be a Man who commands respect and who understands what is needed to enslave that particular woman. Not every man is right for every woman. And, lastly, I don't see slaves generally as suffering from low self-esteem. I am wondering how you came by these conclusions? Just friendly curiosity because I'm a little surprised by those impressions.

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ORIGINAL: Hierodule

Is that true of Gorean philosophy that once you are a slave you are always a slave? I have only read the first book and in it there were two examples of enslaved girls becoming free companions, Sana and Talena. I guess you could argue that Talena was never fully enslaved. Sure she submitted herself as a form of manipulation, knowing that Tarl wouldn't kill her. But she seemed to like the idea of slavery. She even wanted to do the chain dance for Tarl when they were in the tent together. I guess both girls might become slaves again in later books. I wouldn't know

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ORIGINAL: kasumi

I've been to chat sites where a woman must be extremely careful with what she says and how she acts, else her "free" status may be ripped from her at any time because it is a Man's world.  (the same is NOT true for a male chatter... they are simply banned if they cause a disruption)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The difference to me is that the owner will always, always have the final say over child raising and that if the slave contradicts or tries to stand up to him when she believes he's doing something wrong rather than obeying "I have decided, no more discussion", she will face punishment.

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That doesn't sound like a mother to me. It sounds like a Mammy. Close. But not the same.

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How about this. Kid's 17 years old. Close enough to manhood to understand what's going on. Mom yells at kid to pick up his room. Kid's going through his Holden Caulfield phase, says "Do it yourself. You're the slave in this house."

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What does the Gorean father do? Tell his son, the free man, to obey the slave girl? Because she gave him birth? To apologize for talking rudely to the slave? Because she gave him birth?

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Unless you raise your child to be a slave there will be an inherent status difference that is not conducive to the parent-child dynamic.

Take care,
Bella

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
How about this. Kid's 17 years old. Close enough to manhood to understand what's going on. Mom yells at kid to pick up his room. Kid's going through his Holden Caulfield phase, says "Do it yourself. You're the slave in this house."

He is taught that "slave" is an inter-personal relationship, not a custom on Earth. In the case above, I step in, tell him to do as his Mother has told him, as that is my standing orders, and if not he can suffer the consequences of his actions.

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What does the Gorean father do? Tell his son, the free man, to obey the slave girl? Because she gave him birth? To apologize for talking rudely to the slave? Because she gave him birth?

Yep, that is what he does. Nothing contrary to this from the philosophical or moral side of being Gorean.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The difference to me is that the owner will always, always have the final say over child raising and that if the slave contradicts or tries to stand up to him when she believes he's doing something wrong rather than obeying "I have decided, no more discussion", she will face punishment.

I always, always have the final say in what happens in my household, with a slave or anyone else. So the argument above is not very valid in my household at least.

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That doesn't sound like a mother to me. It sounds like a Mammy. Close. But not the same.

Mothers, just like any human, comes in all shapes and sizes. There is no one size fits all to parenting, though there are some good fundamentals.

quote:


How about this. Kid's 17 years old. Close enough to manhood to understand what's going on. Mom yells at kid to pick up his room. Kid's going through his Holden Caulfield phase, says "Do it yourself. You're the slave in this house."

He is taught that "slave" is an inter-personal relationship, not a custom on Earth. In the case above, I step in, tell him to do as his Mother has told him, as that is my standing orders, and if not he can suffer the consequences of his actions. This argument is not valid as the customs and traditions of Gor, are not part of the philosophy and only slightly a rflection of the Morality. Part of that morality is that do as the alpha says, or suffer. Do a job well, and be rewarded. A Mother is going to be obeyed while the child is a child. There is always the option that I can sign immancipation papers and let the 17 year old step out the door and learn lessons the hard way.

quote:


What does the Gorean father do? Tell his son, the free man, to obey the slave girl? Because she gave him birth? To apologize for talking rudely to the slave? Because she gave him birth?

Yep, that is what he does. Nothing contrary to this from the philosophical or moral side of being Gorean.

quote:


Unless you raise your child to be a slave there will be an inherent status difference that is not conducive to the parent-child dynamic.

Take care,
Bella

This is where you have a problem in your points and arguments, you are trying to apply the customs in the series into the everyday living here on Earth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Hi Sabba,

First of all I want to clarify that I'm talking about the Gorean concept of a slave.

The difference to me is that the owner will always, always have the final say over child raising and that if the slave contradicts or tries to stand up to him when she believes he's doing something wrong rather than obeying "I have decided, no more discussion", she will face punishment.

That doesn't sound like a mother to me. It sounds like a Mammy. Close. But not the same.

How about this. Kid's 17 years old. Close enough to manhood to understand what's going on. Mom yells at kid to pick up his room. Kid's going through his Holden Caulfield phase, says "Do it yourself. You're the slave in this house."

What does the Gorean father do? Tell his son, the free man, to obey the slave girl? Because she gave him birth? To apologize for talking rudely to the slave? Because she gave him birth?

Unless you raise your child to be a slave there will be an inherent status difference that is not conducive to the parent-child dynamic.

Take care,
Bella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hi Orion,

It actually wasn't the book customs that made me question this, but rather the customs on this board that the Gorean slaves here are expected to refer to every FM and FW posting as "Master" or "Mistress," and I can't imagine any of the slaves here giving a FM here an order.

quote:


I understand where you're coming from, that you're the head of your household and that if *you* order your son to respect his mother, he will do it. But again, that's why I say mammy, not mother. A mother expects respect herself, rather than by order of the father.

quote:


Don't get me wrong here, I know that there are mammys and nursemaids who were far more 'mothering' to children than the birth mother was, and I'm not saying that a slave can't be nurturing or loving or anything. But the dynamic does seem different, obviously I can't imagine what goes on in your household but I can only imagine that the expectation of a slave while interacting with a FM on this board would not be applicable when the slave is a mother and the FM is a son.

quote:


I also wonder if you'll say "slave is an interpersonal relationship" rather than a status and be understanding to the next self-identified kajira on this forum who follows none of the customs of this board because her Master says she doesn't have to.

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Is a slave who refuses to call a FM "Master" because her Master told her not to generally given respect on these boards? Or is she derided as a spoilt princess?

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I'm well aware that a mother-child relationship would be different than general social protocol. But then again...that's kinda my point.

I wish you well,
Bella

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but its been proven time and time again that an authoritarian parenting style does not create happy, well rounded and psychologically healthy children

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ORIGINAL: Behness

I sincerely hope nobody minds me popping my two cents in here, but its been proven time and time again that an authoritarian parenting style does not create happy, well rounded and psychologically healthy children.

quote:


I cannot help but see a relationship where the mother must constantly threaten, "wait until your father gets home" as an authoritarian one - a family where the mother has no power (due to being a slave), the child would SEE this and undermine her, and then the father must come in and constantly enforce the rules.

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Of course, I may have minimal understanding in this, because I am only reading from these boards and have no outside knowledge of raising children in a Gorean lifestyle, and if I have it totally wrong, I do apologise.

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At the end of the day however, I believe a mother must be respected. You really cannot raise healthy children if they do not respect 50% of their immediate influences.

quote:


And, it is said time and time again in the books, slaves are not respected.
And... I apologise in advance again if I've offended anyone, I didn't mean to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hi Orion,

It actually wasn't the book customs that made me question this, but rather the customs on this board that the Gorean slaves here are expected to refer to every FM and FW posting as "Master" or "Mistress," and I can't imagine any of the slaves here giving a FM here an order.

I would recommend  not applying online customs with real life customs either.

quote:


I understand where you're coming from, that you're the head of your household and that if *you* order your son to respect his mother, he will do it. But again, that's why I say mammy, not mother. A mother expects respect herself, rather than by order of the father.

Where is that written? My girl expects our youngest son to respect her, as do I. Not to mention that for as long as mankind has been around, the "wait till your Father gets home" tactic has been used.

quote:


Don't get me wrong here, I know that there are mammys and nursemaids who were far more 'mothering' to children than the birth mother was, and I'm not saying that a slave can't be nurturing or loving or anything. But the dynamic does seem different, obviously I can't imagine what goes on in your household but I can only imagine that the expectation of a slave while interacting with a FM on this board would not be applicable when the slave is a mother and the FM is a son.

Why does the dynamic seem different? How are things with your kids?

quote:


I also wonder if you'll say "slave is an interpersonal relationship" rather than a status and be understanding to the next self-identified kajira on this forum who follows none of the customs of this board because her Master says she doesn't have to.

Huh? The apple and the orange taste different, look different, but I agree they are both fruit.

quote:


Is a slave who refuses to call a FM "Master" because her Master told her not to generally given respect on these boards? Or is she derided as a spoilt princess?

What does that have to do with a mother and son? To answer your question, no they are likely not. Sometimes they are identified for not being a slave for other reasons, and sometimes time proves this out.

quote:


I'm well aware that a mother-child relationship would be different than general social protocol. But then again...that's kinda my point.

I wish you well,
Bella

You have an odd way of showing a very convulted point. Maybe you should read, and then rewrite what you are trying to put forth. We were speaking of slaves being Mothers to their children, and then you started running around out in left field trying to draw a line to home plate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabba

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Hi Sabba,

First of all I want to clarify that I'm talking about the Gorean concept of a slave.

The difference to me is that the owner will always, always have the final say over child raising and that if the slave contradicts or tries to stand up to him when she believes he's doing something wrong rather than obeying "I have decided, no more discussion", she will face punishment.

That doesn't sound like a mother to me. It sounds like a Mammy. Close. But not the same.

How about this. Kid's 17 years old. Close enough to manhood to understand what's going on. Mom yells at kid to pick up his room. Kid's going through his Holden Caulfield phase, says "Do it yourself. You're the slave in this house."

What does the Gorean father do? Tell his son, the free man, to obey the slave girl? Because she gave him birth? To apologize for talking rudely to the slave? Because she gave him birth?

Unless you raise your child to be a slave there will be an inherent status difference that is not conducive to the parent-child dynamic.

Take care,
Bella

greetings bella;

sabba knows you're speaking about the Gorean concept of a slave. Forgive her, she wasn't aware you were living as one, or had served as one to be able to give such a definitive explanation of how exactly it works.

An Owner/Father/Master might always have final say over how their child is raised. That certainly isn't exclusive to a Gorean FM. Punishment comes in many forms. A father who isn't happy with something the child's mother has done may absolutely "punish" the mother. Punishment isn't always physical.

And incidentally, what is wrong with a Man, Gorean or not, being the head of the household?

As to your example......sabba has a hard time imagining a 17yr old son of a FM pitching such a fit and acting in such a manner without consequences from their father. It kind of negates any kind of action from the mother. "Wait until your father gets home" has struck fear in the hearts of many, many children over the years, likely with good reason.

The Gorean father tells His son exactly what He wishes to. The Old Guard father does the same, as well as the Victorian, the vanilla and any other father you may want to come up with.

well wishes,
sabba