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RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/17/2009 7:35:06 PM

sabba

Posts: 396
Joined: 4/12/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Hi sabba,

Firstly, a wife and a husband can "punish" each other. Yelling, silent treatment, withholding sex, which of these weapons does the slave have?

Secondly we are making two assumptions here. The first is that the master is the father of the children. The second is that the master is a good man. (I'm not talking about Xian here, I'm talking about the general concept)

Tell me, what does the slave mother do when the father of her children isn't in the picture at all, and she meets a man who masters her...and the man doesn't want the baggage of another man's children.

Does the woman give her children away? Or does she tell the man no?

In other words, is she a mother? Or is she a slave? And more importantly, if she's truly mastered, does she even have the capacity to make that decision?

The difference, to me, between a mother who is raising her children and a slave who is assisting her Master with raising the children she gave birth to, is that the mother's self determination extends to making choices for her young child.

In other words it's the difference between "You will respect me, I am your mother," and "You will respect me, your father told you to."

Take care,
Bella (with a capital B)

Greetings Mistress Bella,

A slave "has" those same weapons. she is just compelled not to use them, or there are consequences.

There are too many options, to narrow this down to a single post. Some slaves give their children away. Some Masters accept the girls kids as His own. Some have mixed families. Some have children together. Not every Master is the right fit for every slave. There is a reason that in the books, slaves were often sold to another Free.

If a Master doesn't want the baggage (as you state) of another man's children....it won't ever get to that point. He won't be interested in owning the girl without some serious changes on her part. No different than a vanilla divorced male who has decided he doesn't want kids with his new girlfriend.

If she can tell Him "no" and mean it, then she likely isn't His slave to begin with.

Slaves make choices all the time. They just make them within guidelines. Their Masters guidelines. Once again, that does not make slaves mindless idiots who can't decide anything without implicit direction. That is what sabba took issue with in your post to begin with.

There is probably a reason that slaves in the books, for the most part, didn't raise/have children. sabba happens to agree with that, but also understands that some Free have different determinations about this subject.

sabba doesn't agree with your last statement either, but thinks it's best to chalk this up to a difference of opinion. Now that she has spoken more in the last 24 hours than she has in the previous 6 months, she thinks she will just go back to reading quietly.

well wishes,
sabba

< Message edited by sabba -- 11/17/2009 7:39:47 PM >

(in reply to Elisabella)

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Post #: 41

RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/18/2009 5:08:58 AM

Kimveri

Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
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G'morning, Orion,

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Yes I have seen it come up, and have thought of several reasons, but all of them have to do with it being applied on Gor, revolving around the customs, and legal practices there.

I'm truly do not understand how excellence, Gorean virtues & examples to live by are all limited to the novels & fictional culture. Those are the means by which I think children should be raised, & were, for the most part, how my son was raised.

Ahh, well, I hope you have time to come back to this, Orion, as I'm mightily confused. ;-/

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

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Post #: 42

RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/18/2009 5:10:05 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hi Orion,

Maybe I am being convoluted. I'll try to make it more succinct.

According to Gorean philosophy, a free person is of higher status than a slave. In a typical family dynamic, a parent is of higher status than a child. One of the two has to override the other.

Status of people living as Goreans, has nothing to do with the philosophy. When applied because it is felt, and not imposed, then it is a reflection of the morality, namely natural stratification. This is something you seem to miss, here and in another topic.

quote:

You talk about not confusing online customs with real life ones - if a Gorean slave isn't expected to defer to Gorean free IRL, or refer to them as Masters or Mistresses, then it seems quite farcical to do so online, at least outside of designated role-playing venues.

My kids are not around when my property, and myself are meeting other Goreans. My oldest son (18) has been there, and my oldest son understands when I explain things to him. My oldest son is now a young man, and my property defers to him, except where it goes against my stated wishes. In this instance it has gone beyond child raising. My youngest son (4), only sees the interaction between myself and my property, and that is guarded interaction.

quote:

Historically speaking, a father did have control over his family, wife included. But if her role is more akin to the Victorian wife than to the Gorean slave, why call her "slave"? Why not call her "wife" or "companion"?

Because when I examine everything as it is, and find that fine line, she is on the side of slave. She does not have self determination in the presence of a stronger will, unless it trips one of her other internal triggers, such as protecting offspring, etc. This is especially true in my presence, and she adapts to my ethics and standards. Those are two of the defining qualities, I see as whether someone is a slave or not. We will not go into even more of why, but the label does not fit.

quote:

And if a slave is a suitable authority figure for a young FM, and a suitable role model for a young FW, then why is she only considered such within the confines of her own family?

Take care,
Bella

Because she is the Mother of those children. This may be some of why Norman said what he said. Here on Earth though, things have to be adjusted, because the social convention and customs of Gor are not always applicable. Even a slave can tell a child "be more like your Father", "be strong like your Father", etc. The Father is acting as the role model of a person with a Master morality. Now what if a child has more of a submissive personality, and slave nature? This can and does happen even to those that are not raised by slaves.

I deal with what is. Just because a female has children, does not automatically make her Free. Just because a slave has children, does not mean she must defer to them. Even legally children are considered under the direction of their parents until age of majority. I am not sure where the problem is.

This is not an advocacy that slaves should be bred and be Mothers, this is speaking of the pragmatic scenario that slaves do have children, and they are Mothers. In an ideal world, both parents would exemplify every positive characteristic we can think of, but that does not happen in reality. This is also why I speak of how things happen in my household.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to Elisabella)

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Post #: 43

RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/18/2009 5:22:24 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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Hiya Kimveri,

I believe I covered some of this in my response to another poster. A slave may not display all of the Gorean virtues, but neither do many that claim to be Free. My slave displays compassion, love, understanding, and helpfulness, which I believe are good traits and virtues to learn as well. My slave displays many of the, for lack of a better word, softer qualities that can be considered good virtues. Why is she not freed to do this? I explained that in the other post.

Will write more as I get time.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

G'morning, Orion,

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Yes I have seen it come up, and have thought of several reasons, but all of them have to do with it being applied on Gor, revolving around the customs, and legal practices there.

I'm truly do not understand how excellence, Gorean virtues & examples to live by are all limited to the novels & fictional culture. Those are the means by which I think children should be raised, & were, for the most part, how my son was raised.

Ahh, well, I hope you have time to come back to this, Orion, as I'm mightily confused. ;-/

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to Kimveri)

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Post #: 44

RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/18/2009 8:49:51 AM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Historically speaking, a father did have control over his family, wife included. But if her role is more akin to the Victorian wife than to the Gorean slave, why call her "slave"? Why not call her "wife" or "companion"?

Fair question. And this may be where I part company with some in the Gorean community. I believe there is way too much fixation with the word "slave", and too strenuous an effort made to separate a "slave" from a merely submissive wife and parse the various meanings of the word.
It has the effect IMO of making what should be a natural normal life into a stilted, contrived effort to act out a work of fiction.
It seems predicated on the notion that Gorean philosophy is built on naked girls running through the streets wearing chains; that if a Gorean slave can also be a wife and mother, can be smart and assertive and tough, and can order a teenaged boy around, the whole edifice will come crashing down.

I don't spend any time worrying whether Kim is a "slave" or a "submissive" or a "wife" "low protocol high service bottom"; I just think of her as my girl, my companion, my helpmate. What I do know is that there is literally nothing she wouldn't do for me; as I mentioned in another thread, her life actually does revolve around making me happy, and she is every bit as devoted to me as any slave in the books.
She is also a strict mother and effective household manager and budget-keeper, and is able to look any man in the eye and demand fair change and a better deal.
Our life just seems natural, normal, the way men and women have lived since the dawn of time- this isn't a science fiction that Norman invented out of whole cloth. He just identified something that has always been.

So I can call her anything I want, slave or wife- but she always comes running when I call. And thats whats important.

(in reply to Elisabella)

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Post #: 45

RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/18/2009 10:11:11 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
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Greetings Animus,

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Historically speaking, a father did have control over his family, wife included. But if her role is more akin to the Victorian wife than to the Gorean slave, why call her "slave"? Why not call her "wife" or "companion"?

Fair question. And this may be where I part company with some in the Gorean community. I believe there is way too much fixation with the word "slave", and too strenuous an effort made to separate a "slave" from a merely submissive wife and parse the various meanings of the word.

Actually for me it is important, but if you look at many of the topics here about what is a Free Woman, and what is a slave, you have a huge area between the areas of definite. So with this in mind, I started to boil things down to "traits" to describe someone, and identifying principles that define someone inside. I believe it was a post by Kimveri from long ago, back when some very provocative statements of mine caused quite a stir. In that post two things jumped out at me "self determination" about what one does with their life, and whether they define their own ethics or adopt someone else's. Everything else seems to be traits that can define a person, whether Free, or slave.

quote:

It has the effect IMO of making what should be a natural normal life into a stilted, contrived effort to act out a work of fiction.
It seems predicated on the notion that Gorean philosophy is built on naked girls running through the streets wearing chains; that if a Gorean slave can also be a wife and mother, can be smart and assertive and tough, and can order a teenaged boy around, the whole edifice will come crashing down.

I agree with this as well. This is why I mentioned long ago in a post of mine, the slave companion. It is not a mixture of Free Companion and slave, but how many slaves are actually kept. In our society, we can treat them one way behind closed doors, but in the public eye we do not. So comes a dichotomy of what the female is, and is illustrated in the series with the many phrases that seem to be contradictory.

quote:

I don't spend any time worrying whether Kim is a "slave" or a "submissive" or a "wife" "low protocol high service bottom"; I just think of her as my girl, my companion, my helpmate. What I do know is that there is literally nothing she wouldn't do for me; as I mentioned in another thread, her life actually does revolve around making me happy, and she is every bit as devoted to me as any slave in the books.

I do not believe that anything you have stated would exclude someone from being a slave, and I do not disagree with how you define, the exception being possibly the marriage thing. I can see only rare occasions why I would marry a slave, and likely I would free them before doing so.

quote:

So I can call her anything I want, slave or wife- but she always comes running when I call. And thats whats important.

I have spent some time in examining my girl's inner workings, including long discussions. This assists me in asserting whether she is a slave or not. There are many traits she has that defines her as a slave, but there are also many traits she has that defines her as Free (if she were not held in mastery). She has been Free before, leading her life and she admits to making a mess of it.

So now it comes back to, what is a slave and what is Free? As stated previously, when I peel away everything the defining factors I have left are the self determination and slave morality.

It is not preferable to me that the Mother of my children be a slave, but as life progress and we grow, my girl may not always be a slave. I know of many who have gone from slave to Free, and many of those add some very insightful things into these discussions.

I have written, and re-written an essay on the "Many Facets of a Female", and frankly it is still a subject that requires more exploration by everyone. I am not opposed to changing my positions, when I see a flaw in a belief or moral, but it does take quite a bit. I would say that I have gone through many changes in outlook during the last 5 years of my life, and some of that is concerning the enigma of females.

Live well,
Orion

P.S. Kimveri, I hope that some of these posts are also answering some of your questions, as I do not have the time to answer each one. I look forward to your comments, and hope to address any follow up to you directly.

With respect,
Orion.

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Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

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Post #: 46

RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/28/2009 9:34:09 AM

CandleSwitch

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/3/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I don't spend any time worrying whether Kim is a "slave" or a "submissive" or a "wife" "low protocol high service bottom"; I just think of her as my girl, my companion, my helpmate. What I do know is that there is literally nothing she wouldn't do for me; as I mentioned in another thread, her life actually does revolve around making me happy, and she is every bit as devoted to me as any slave in the books.
She is also a strict mother and effective household manager and budget-keeper, and is able to look any man in the eye and demand fair change and a better deal.
Our life just seems natural, normal, the way men and women have lived since the dawn of time- this isn't a science fiction that Norman invented out of whole cloth. He just identified something that has always been.

So I can call her anything I want, slave or wife- but she always comes running when I call. And thats whats important.

This sort of arrangement is something I have been trying to find an example of for a very long time now. Those in my immediate community do not subscribe to M/s relationships, so I have not been able to ask them anything, and I recently came back to CM hoping to find some answers. Most of my questions have literally gone unanswered (the threads die or the posts go back to a former area further back in the thread).

May I please email you? I am hoping if my semantics are altered or something is pointed out to me that I may be missing, I might have more success at sorting out my own situation.
CanDle

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Post #: 47

RE: Gorean Status and Life - 11/28/2009 11:06:21 AM

AnimusRex

Posts: 2104
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Candle-
Feel free to email either one of us; we are happy to talk.
For the other posters, Orion especially, I wouldn't disagree especially with respect to how your household is set up or run. The essence of being Free is that your house is your soveriegn territory. If it works for you, I wish you well.

(in reply to CandleSwitch)

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Post #: 48