Gorean Status and Life (Full Version)

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XaviersXian -> Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 5:37:14 PM)

hello everyone,

I was laying in bed this morning, and a thought hit me.  Throughout life, people generally go through changes in attitudes as they gain more maturity and life experience.

In my own case, when I was younger (late teens/early-mid 20s) and single, I identified exclusively with being a submissive/slave (first in a BDSM sense, then as I got older, in the Gorean sense).  I sought to find a man that I would naturally react as a slave to and from that, be happy and fulfilled in what I thought was my natural role. 

Fast forward a few years to my late 20s, and I become pregnant with our beautiful daughter. 

Giving birth to her seems to have changed my mindset from desiring and *needing* to be a slave to desiring and needing to be free of enslavement, and free in my interractions with others.  I am now married, and expecting our second baby at the end of January (a sweet little boy) and the desire for free, self determining, self governing interractions with others is the strongest it's ever been.

I was wondering if you believe that events throughout life (marriage, births, divorces, deaths, anything else you can think of) can change the nature of a person from slave to free (or vice versa) or if those life events just unleash a person's fundamental nature, the one they are predisposed to have?.

I wish you well,



Elisabella -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 6:36:19 PM)

Hi Xian,

I think what you're experiencing right now is natural and you should embrace it. You're a mother. Soon you will have a responsibility to two children - you and your husband not only have to provide them with the material comforts of life but also have to instill in them values and strength that they will carry in them long after they've left your house.

A slave can't do that. A slave just says yes and obeys. A slave isn't a provider, a slave is the one being provided for, being told what to do and sheltered from responsibility.

I don't know you well enough to say what your natural inclination is, but I think it's a good sign that when it comes down to it, you're willing to step up and take the responsibility that comes with freedom in order to be a mother rather than another child-like dependant of your husband.

I don't like to give advice about what people *should* do, but I will say that if you're feeling the desire to be free, you might want to try it. Freedom doesn't mean you can't still submit to your husband, it just means that you'll be an active agent in your own life, and your children's.

I wish you the best,
Bella



Maahsatti -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 6:36:19 PM)

Greetings xian,

I indeed feel that we change as we grow in life and what we felt important in our youth does become less so in our maturity.

I strongly feel that when parenthood becomes the factor, specifically motherhood, everything in our life changes including attitude ,desire and need.

Our children come before everything in our life, including and imo, top of the list..even our own needs, wants and desire's.
Our children become our focal point, our need our wants and our desires,their safety happiness and well being consumes our every thought and I feel that is how it should be.

jmo, well wishes,
Mistress Maahsatti



kasumi -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 8:00:23 PM)

Yes! Having a child has been the single most influential thing on my beliefs, feelings - indeed my entire life!

Forgive me for saying so (especially here!) but thank GOODNESS Gor isn't real. Otherwise.... once a slave always a slave. And you would likely never have had a child to begin with.

Its a scary thought that, when dealing with Gor, one is essentially messing with a philosophy that would strip you of your basic rights just because of your gender. It was realizing the extremity of that philosophy that made me reject it completely in the end. I have three daughters and I'll not have them believing that they are second-rate humans just because they are girls.

I still do identify as a slave, but my submission is out of love and respect alone. Master would never have me submit just because he is a man. And, additionally, we call each other by our names in front of the children and do whatever we can to not give away the appearance that "mommies have to do whatever daddies tell them to".

If it weren't for my kids, I likely would have been able to participate in the Gorean lifestyle, but I now realize that sort of behavior stemmed on my low self-esteem. It would never have been very fulfilling for me.



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 8:44:47 PM)

Greetings xian,

I do know what you mean. I think that slavery (at least for me) comes from my sexuality- I don't mean on a superficial level, I mean the underlying instinctive drive that causes us to react to men as we do. After childbirth, there were a couple of years where I wasn't connected to that part of me at all and I suspect that that too is some sort of natural programming designed to keep us focused on our children when they need us. It wasn't until my child began to get older that I was able to discover and embrace slavery.

Well wishes,
anna



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 8:57:28 PM)

Greetings kasumi,

Forgive me, but I am confused. The other thread you started said that you had not read the books yet, but here you refer to the philosophies that caused you to reject it. Did I misunderstand something?

Also I am unsure of some of the comments you made. I do not see that women are stripped of their basic rights because of their gender. There are many strong, independent, and respected Free Women here. I also do not think anyone will submit just because someone is a man. That someone generally has to be a Man who commands respect and who understands what is needed to enslave that particular woman. Not every man is right for every woman. And, lastly, I don't see slaves generally as suffering from low self-esteem. I am wondering how you came by these conclusions? Just friendly curiosity because I'm a little surprised by those impressions.

Well wishes,
anna



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 10:00:14 PM)

Short and simple:

1) Kids do not come before everything, to do so gives them the false sense that things will always be given to them.

2) Kids fit into the family unit as the head of the household determines.

3) A slave can assist in raising children, under the direction of the right owner. Even as a slave they can instill and encourage virtues that are admired by the slave, as long as the owner of the slave is acting or someone else is acting in a role that supports that encouragment with visual example.

4) Someone commenting on this topic needs to read the books before they get involved.

5) As people go through life they can change, and the change can be from the foundation up. This means that someone can have a slave morality, and eventually reject it to have a Master morality. So the answer is that yes, you can be a slave and become Free. Also, there are many that live as Free, that have a slave morality, so it is not the outward status that is the point, but what we are inside.

Live well,
Orion



Hierodule -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/15/2009 11:54:07 PM)

Is that true of Gorean philosophy that once you are a slave you are always a slave? I have only read the first book and in it there were two examples of enslaved girls becoming free companions, Sana and Talena. I guess you could argue that Talena was never fully enslaved. Sure she submitted herself as a form of manipulation, knowing that Tarl wouldn't kill her. But she seemed to like the idea of slavery. She even wanted to do the chain dance for Tarl when they were in the tent together. I guess both girls might become slaves again in later books. I wouldn't know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kasumi
Forgive me for saying so (especially here!) but thank GOODNESS Gor isn't real. Otherwise.... once a slave always a slave. And you would likely never have had a child to begin with.




Maahsatti -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 3:19:40 AM)

quote:

1) Kids do not come before everything, to do so gives them the false sense that things will always be given to them.


Hi Orion,

Here we disagree.
A child need not get the impression that everything will get handed to them on a silver platter, so to speak, just because the parent makes them the number 1 priority in their life. Not when the parent teach's solid foundations of hard work, self accountability and strong ethics.
In my opinion, that is exactly what a parent is showing by example, when giving up their own self importance needs, wants and desires in order to give their child/children all the staples they need in life to grow learn and bloom into responsable, honest, honorable citizens.

I could go on and on with this particular subject, but I feel I have made a sufficiant point for now.
A quick example.
My oldest son , for a long time, due to chemical inbalances and other medical issues for all intense purposes, made him think just as you described. He felt the world owed him and wanted everything for nothing so to speak. This was not his fault imo, it was mine, because I let him think that way for a time, as I was at a loss as to what to do, because I did not raise him like that. I was in a sence, shocked, I disbelieved what was happening and hoped it would just correct itself.
well, I woke up...lol..after I did, I turned around and...woke him up...*grinz*
I made him understand his wrongs and he saught medical help and is now becoming the type of citizen I described and takes responsability for his own actions, etc. he is self reliant and now has the confidence in himself to be in control and not expect anything to come his way without putting forth the hard work.

Take good care,
Maah



Malkinius -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 4:24:26 AM)

Greetings hierodule....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hierodule

Is that true of Gorean philosophy that once you are a slave you are always a slave? I have only read the first book and in it there were two examples of enslaved girls becoming free companions, Sana and Talena. I guess you could argue that Talena was never fully enslaved. Sure she submitted herself as a form of manipulation, knowing that Tarl wouldn't kill her. But she seemed to like the idea of slavery. She even wanted to do the chain dance for Tarl when they were in the tent together. I guess both girls might become slaves again in later books. I wouldn't know.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kasumi
Forgive me for saying so (especially here!) but thank GOODNESS Gor isn't real. Otherwise.... once a slave always a slave. And you would likely never have had a child to begin with.


kasumi really doesn't know that much about the books so don't trust her information.

No, it is not true. It is not true in the books or here on Earth. There is a slave who is freed in the first book and a number of them in the later books. I know of a number of slaves here in the US who have been freed. Some stayed free and some became slaves again. Talena is an interesting situation. She does reappear in later books both as a slave and free. You have to read all of them to see the changes she goes through. Several slaves become free companions as well. Read Assassin of Gor to find the next set.

If you want to know more about those of us who are Gorean offline, there is a ChicagoGor group which meets for a late lunch once a month. If you and your Master want to know more, just contact me. The next one is 5 December.

Be well....

Malkinius



Kimveri -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 4:40:27 AM)

Howdy, Xian,

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian
I was wondering if you believe that events throughout life (marriage, births, divorces, deaths, anything else you can think of) can change the nature of a person from slave to free (or vice versa) 


It's long been my opinion that what makes a woman a slave is not her nature, but the mastery of another. Further, imo, the nature of the female is one of femininity, not 'slave' or 'free'. As Tarl tells several slavegirls, repeatedly, it is their womanhood they will learn through slavery.

YMMV, of course. :-D

~Kimveri



OrionTheWolf -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 4:50:57 AM)

Hiya Maah,

We will have to disagree. They are part of the family unit, just like anyone, so their needs must be balanced with the rest of the household. Parents that sacrifice too much of themselves, cause problems because you must look after yourself first, before you can take care of others. There are many examples I could use, especially the hierachal methods used in rural homes for hundreds of years. Family units establish their own pecking order, with someone in charge. Showing, via living, this natural stratification, and assigning importance based upon merit and needs, is what makes a well balanced person.

Kids are of high priority, but they should not always be first priority. Not sure if that is a semantical disagreement, or a substantial one.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti

quote:

1) Kids do not come before everything, to do so gives them the false sense that things will always be given to them.


Hi Orion,

Here we disagree.
A child need not get the impression that everything will get handed to them on a silver platter, so to speak, just because the parent makes them the number 1 priority in their life. Not when the parent teach's solid foundations of hard work, self accountability and strong ethics.
In my opinion, that is exactly what a parent is showing by example, when giving up their own self importance needs, wants and desires in order to give their child/children all the staples they need in life to grow learn and bloom into responsable, honest, honorable citizens.




Kimveri -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 4:55:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kasumi
Forgive me for saying so (especially here!) but thank GOODNESS Gor isn't real.


Gor IS real.....a real philosophy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kasumi
Otherwise.... once a slave always a slave.


This is incorrect. Slaves were freed often in the novels. Perhaps you should read them before making erroneous statements?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kasumi
Its a scary thought that, when dealing with Gor, one is essentially messing with a philosophy that would strip you of your basic rights just because of your gender.


This too is incorrect. It's a matter of merit, not solely of gender. Else there'd not be any male slaves, neh? Again, reading the novels would prevent such mistaken notions from being presented as "facts".

quote:

ORIGINAL: kasumi
I have three daughters and I'll not have them believing that they are second-rate humans just because they are girls.


I find this extremely offensive. My Companion, a very Gorean man, raised four daughters & NEVER treated them as your misinformation describes here. Women are considered marvelous, magnificent & complementary to men by Goreans.

Even in the fiction of the novels, more than 95% of the women of Gor were Free Women, & they were NOT treated as "second-rate humans". They were accorded far greater respect & dignity than most women in our current societies.

You really do need to take the time to inform yourself on the topic (RTFB) before you display the full extent of your knowledge so starkly.

Happy reading,

~Kimveri



Maahsatti -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 5:40:30 AM)

Hi Orion,

  I don't exactly disagree with what you say.
I just feel that parent's and specially single parent's should put their children above themselves, rather, put their needs first. I do believe as you say that children are part of the family unit, etc but to me, childrens needs will always be first before the parent's. That I believe is the sacrifice one makes when deciding to have children.

Take care,
Maah



tazantatish -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 5:51:19 AM)

Dear Xaviersxian
Is there any doubt that what you are wanting is the best for your children.  Becoming a parent is a life changing event even if you thought it would not change your life, it will.
Cheers taz.




AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 6:19:08 AM)

quote:

A slave can assist in raising children, under the direction of the right owner. Even as a slave they can instill and encourage virtues that are admired by the slave, as long as the owner of the slave is acting or someone else is acting in a role that supports that encouragment with visual example.

it is not the outward status that is the point, but what we are inside.


Greetings Master Orion,

This girl likes what you point out here. She now raises her child while under the direction of her owner. Had she been owned when she first had the child, she feels that, being securely held in slavery, then it would have simply continued after having a child too, because when a girl is held by a Man whom she trusts to lead and to be responsible then she trusts him in everything including raising children.

As it turned out for her however, while her slave nature existed in her and had always existed in her, she had never identified it, and had never met a man who could master it and her. She was in a marriage in which she had had to suppress her true self for a long time, and so when she had a baby, and was further distracted from thinking of her own needs (she thinks some kind of women's child birth hormones must kick in here), well that side of her remained buried for some time. It was not until she was able to leave that she was able to begin to find herself and, eventually to find someone who could understand who she is and know what to do about it.

As you said, her inner status was always there, regardless of her outer status... though having that discrepancy for too long can make one miserable. Eventually, one must be true to oneself.

Well wishes,
anna



sabba -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 6:34:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hi Xian,

I think what you're experiencing right now is natural and you should embrace it. You're a mother. Soon you will have a responsibility to two children - you and your husband not only have to provide them with the material comforts of life but also have to instill in them values and strength that they will carry in them long after they've left your house.

A slave can't do that. A slave just says yes and obeys. A slave isn't a provider, a slave is the one being provided for, being told what to do and sheltered from responsibility.

I wish you the best,
Bella


greetings elisabella;

This is the kind of thinking that may lead others to assume that kajira have a "doormat" type mentality. You say, that it's the responsibility of the parents "to instill in them values and strength that they will carry in them long after they've left your house". Is there not value and strength in devotion and obedience? Adherence to one's principles? Standing up for what one believes in, even though it may not be what society as a whole prescribes to? What exactly is wrong with a child being raised in an environment where their parents are secure in their place and happy to be there? What is it about identifying as a slave makes this impossible, in your opinion? It may not be your idea of how to raise a child, but that makes it no less valid for the rest of the world.

A slave doesn't "just say yes and obey". OK, maybe some do, on the surface anyway. There will always be extremes and some that have a different interpretation of the philosophies......but in general most FM actually value a slave's opinion. There is this thing called "discussion" that many Free actually seem to enjoy. Is obedience expected in the end? Absolutely. That does not mean that the slave just nods her head like a Stepford Wife and smiles prettily.

How exactly is a slave "not a provider"? What they provide to a child is different than what the father/FM provides and frankly that's how it should be. Does a child need caring, love, nuturing, shelter, etc? How does being  a slave make a mother incapable of providing their child with these things? When a mother holds her child and kisses his scraped knee, is that not providing love and comfort for them? Do you honestly think it matters at that point if that mother is a slave or FW? Something as basic as feeding a child.....is a mother who cooks and prepares her child's meals not "providing" something to them?

"Told what to do" and"sheltered from responsibility". Wow. You must have some fairly negative interactions with slaves. Yes, slaves are told what to do. It still does not make a slave mindless, thoughtless and incapable of making a decision. Believe it or not, slaves make them all the time. A slave will just make them with their Master's guidelines and beliefs. Not really any different than why a vegetarian chooses not to eat meat. It's based on a set of beliefs/values.

How are slaves "sheltered from responsibility"? A slave is responsible to their Master. They may have many, many responsibilities from cleaning, work, producing income, a companion, and 1000 other ways to serve. Slaves are responsible for so many things. And yes, they are responsible for service and obedience as well.

Not exactly bad lessons to teach a child.....

well wishes,
sabba



AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 6:43:37 AM)

quote:

Hi Orion,

I don't exactly disagree with what you say.
I just feel that parent's and specially single parent's should put their children above themselves, rather, put their needs first. I do believe as you say that children are part of the family unit, etc but to me, childrens needs will always be first before the parent's. That I believe is the sacrifice one makes when deciding to have children.

Take care,
Maah


Greetings Mistress Maah,

This girl is wondering if this is another example of the wonderful differences between men and women. Perhaps females are biologically programmed to put taking care of offspring first. When a baby or cub, depending on the species, is born, the female is usually completely preoccupied with feeding and caring for that child (exceptions to this existing but tending to be aberrations of nature). Most female animals will sacrifice everything including themselves to protect their young. A male on the other hand, is out there hunting and providing for the entire family, and must necessarily see the bigger picture. They too will make sacrifices, but in a male way, for the protection of the entire family. It makes sense to this girl that females and males would see child raising differently, and she thinks they are complementary viewpoints, both a part of nature's order, that together help raise a child in a balanced way- the male and female ways offsetting one another and providing that balance.

Well wishes,
anna



AnimusRex -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 8:40:33 AM)

I think part of the issue here is that the word "slave" and the Gorean philosophy becomes interpreted in ever more exotic and mysterious ways, to where it does become a strange science fiction, incompatible with leading a normal life.
Which is unnecessary, in my view. Gor was based on very real Earth cultures; the novels simply presume that the Enlightenment never happened, that instead of egalitarianism being seen as a good, hierarchy and inequality were taken as the norm.

I am thinking of Imperial Rome, where a slave might be a person of power and intelligence, exercising control over other slaves; For example, Greek scholars were highly valued as slaves, since they were able to function as clerks, emmisaries, accountants, and so forth. For a fictionalized version, watch the movie "Gladiator"- Emperor Marcus Aurelius' assistant was in fact a Greek slave.

Another is in the Middle Ages, whereby even a Knight or a nobleman would be, literally, the property of the King, having no rights but what the King chose. For another fictionalized account, see "Elizabeth I", a British production. One classic scene is where Elizabeth confronts her advisors and snarls "My dogs wear My collars, Sirs!" and they all- Lords and Gentlemen, every one of them- cower and bow their heads in submission.

The confusion seems to stem from the fact that Norman connected femininity to slavery; and many seem to confuse or femininity to being childlike. this is entirely a 20th Century concept. The notion that a slave in service to a Roman patrician would be so feeble as to not know how to go to the market and negotiate forcefully with a vendor, or that a nobleman serving the Queen would be incapable of running a household would be laughable- who needs the services of a simpleton?

So when Xian feels the need to be assertive and independent, she is feeling the natural drive to fiercely protect and advance her child; maybe she is rejecting slavery, or maybe not- only she knows.
But being assertive, fierce and autonomous isn't incompatible with being a slave- the only criteria for being a slave is being in service to another.




AnnaOfAramis -> RE: Gorean Status and Life (11/16/2009 9:16:44 AM)

quote:

The notion that a slave in service to a Roman patrician would be so feeble as to not know how to go to the market and negotiate forcefully with a vendor, or that a nobleman serving the Queen would be incapable of running a household would be laughable- who needs the services of a simpleton?

So when Xian feels the need to be assertive and independent, she is feeling the natural drive to fiercely protect and advance her child; maybe she is rejecting slavery, or maybe not- only she knows.
But being assertive, fierce and autonomous isn't incompatible with being a slave- the only criteria for being a slave is being in service to another.


Greetings Master AnimusRex,

Thank you so much for saying this! This girl has had this discussion many times with people in various places and it is a pet peeve of hers that people continually miss this point about slavery historically. People all over the CM board and others like them continually assert that "slaves have no rights" or "slaves can't own property" as if it is part and parcel of being a slave. When, historically it depended on where you were a slave as to what rights one might have. Greek slaves for example owned property and even owned other slaves. Also in the middle east and elsewhere. In truth rights and privileges come from one's owner or the slave society in which one finds oneself (too, they can be taken away). In the Ottoman empire (this girl's favourite) Eunuch's were entrusted with many responsibilities and as you point out, needed the ability to go to the market and negotiate, some slaves had political positions. Indeed of what use is a feeble slave who is useless and needs everything done for her/him? A slave brings all of their abilities to the service of their Master.

Smiles and well wishes,

anna



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