quote:

Nothing stops a free woman in Gor from doing anything she wishes if she has the ability and talent to do so.

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ORIGINAL: Camerius


Tal Orion,

Yes, the same can be said for men, and the rest of that sentence I too agree with.

Also, yes, it is against the law to force someone to do something against their will or consent. What I mentioned was a book example of what could happen to a "rebellious" Free Woman, no more.

quote:


I also have no problem with you or anyone else not agreeing with how I see, believe and understand this or anything else for that matter. I am however against people wandering off with the expression that a Gorean Free Woman is a amazonian mouthy bitch slaveowning Domme or that Gorean Free Women could do and act as they pleased, this even to the extend of them going against the will of the men around her, when it's so far from being so.

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I agree with this too, but there is not much that can be done to prevent this, "Gorean Free Woman is a amazonian mouthy bitch slaveowning Domme or that Gorean Free Women could do and act as they pleased, this even to the extend of them going against the will of the men around her, when it's so far from being so. ", except for ostercizing or apply one's will to get them to act differently.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius
I am however against people wandering off with the expression that a Gorean Free Woman is a amazonian mouthy bitch slaveowning Domme or that Gorean Free Women could do and act as they pleased, this even to the extend of them going against the will of the men around her, when it's so far from being so.

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ORIGINAL: Camerius

Well, if someone has the strength to keep that power to do as one pleases, then yes, that power entitles them to do so. But that don't mean that if there i a lack of power, it should give them the right to continue. A female ruler are only as strong in her ruling as the men around her allows her to be. If not so, they will either abandon her or dethrone her, how much power does she then have to continue?

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However, I still stand by that the men around her would (sooner or later) put a woman (be she free or slave) in her place for being out of line. What the outcome of that might be, is a open question with me give a book example as for a possible result. I also don't agree that there was nothing to stop you from  being as mouthy or bitchy or nasty and disagreeable as you wished. Remember, the sword of others. So, to conclude, if this was a woman, being out of her place, then it would be the men around her would set her the limits. Just as it's shown being done throughout the books.

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Also the rule that I see around is more in the lines of "Prove yourself worthy by deed as well as words to show whom and what you are, use your strengths to accomplish this and take a seat amongst your peers; if you can't then, its not your place to take that seat". Might isn't always or equals right, this too goes for Goreans.


I wish you well,

Camerius

 

quote:

Well, if someone has the strength to keep that power to do as one pleases, then yes, that power entitles them to do so. But that don't mean that if there i a lack of power, it should give them the right to continue. A female ruler are only as strong in her ruling as the men around her allows her to be. If not so, they will either abandon her or dethrone her, how much power does she then have to continue?

This doesn't hold true for men as well? In other words, isn't it the strength of the leader that determines the actions of the followers/dethroners - be it a man or woman? [/qoute]

It does, but a leader is only a leader as long as there's support for the person to keep that seat. And that support has to come from the ones around the person appointed for it. Even more so for a female. But I haven't talked about men here, since this is a talk about Free Women.

Also her place is not a given, and even if she is in that seat "that are rightfully hers" she will still be called on if she is out of line. A Gorean female will both know and accept this. And I'm not saying "Just because someone has a penis doesn't automatically make then capable of putting another person - man OR woman - in any particular place, does it?", you did so. What *I* am saying is that when a female is out of line (be that free or slave), the men around her will step in and put her in place. This more clearly done within the Gorean social structure, since men most often is in the lead while women most often are in the following. Yes, I too know that there are female rulers in the books, but again, they only function because of the men around them supports them and is willing to be lead. If it's not there, she won't be able to rule, suggest or command anything as she relies on that support to function. If she has the ability and personal strength to gather support to be a good leader then Goreans are practical enough to recognize her as such and have her as a ruler, but if not, she's off that rocking chair in a jiffy.

Do I say that it does not hold true for women? Read what I wrote, please. I don't mention a specific sex here or exclude another, did I? So yes, it holds true for women too. Free women that is. This is the rule that is what I see as being used around fellow as well as other Goreans, not from you calling yourself something, but because you continue to prove and then reprove that this is your place to take, and in that way it is earned. Not just by words, but too by deed.

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I would also like to think that many Gorean men also use their brains, not just their brawn, to hold positions of power - be it over a slave or a country. Posts that seem to puff up about a woman being out of line as opposed to a PERSON being out of line - or out of their natural place, is what comes across as shallow and one dimensional to those of us trying to understand what other people propose is a complete and multifaceted philosophy. If it really is as simple as penis=power, then every man would be a master and every woman a slave, right? The fact that some men hold power over each other would also suggest that women's natural "place" would be interspersed throughout the same bell curve, albeit maybe not in the same density due to the natural stratification suggested by this philosophic system.

That is a good thought, but not all positions (Gorean or otherwise) are held with the use of a brain, sometimes the raw power of force and muscles are needed to achieve this. What may come across to you or other readers as being shallow and one dimensional is in fact a yank on that "Gorean reminder" of a woman to remember both her station and her place. As to the fact of other men holding power over other is again a part of what natural order we have as humans, we appoint persons that we see as being strong enough (not just in muscle capacity, mind you or dick size) to lead us to become stronger and with a better chance to survive as a group or a society. To me this is not in the same lines of slaves surrendering, not at all. The bell curve shows that men are predominatly dominant and women are predominatly submissive. As such there is a bigger tendensy for men to rise up and take the lead than for females to do the same when the call is for it. The bell curve also shows that there are women in one end of the fringes that are dominant, we also recognize that, as well as there is males on the other side that are submissive. One belongs in a collar and the other *IF* she can gather enough support from the men around her, may rise to become a ruler. But she will only function as long as the men around her wants to support her.

THAT is what I'm saying.


I wish you well,

  Camerius








_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to eponavet)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius


Also her place is not a given, and even if she is in that seat "that are rightfully hers" she will still be called on if she is out of line. A Gorean female will both know and accept this. And I'm not saying "Just because someone has a penis doesn't automatically make then capable of putting another person - man OR woman - in any particular place, does it?", you did so. What *I* am saying is that when a female is out of line (be that free or slave), the men around her will step in and put her in place. This more clearly done within the Gorean social structure, since men most often is in the lead while women most often are in the following. Yes, I too know that there are female rulers in the books, but again, they only function because of the men around them supports them and is willing to be lead. If it's not there, she won't be able to rule, suggest or command anything as she relies on that support to function. If she has the ability and personal strength to gather support to be a good leader then Goreans are practical enough to recognize her as such and have her as a ruler, but if not, she's off that rocking chair in a jiffy.

quote:

Do I say that it does not hold true for women? Read what I wrote, please. I don't mention a specific sex here or exclude another, did I? So yes, it holds true for women too. Free women that is. This is the rule that is what I see as being used around fellow as well as other Goreans, not from you calling yourself something, but because you continue to prove and then reprove that this is your place to take, and in that way it is earned. Not just by words, but too by deed.

The bell curve also shows that there are women in one end of the fringes that are dominant, we also recognize that, as well as there is males on the other side that are submissive. One belongs in a collar and the other *IF* she can gather enough support from the men around her, may rise to become a ruler. But she will only function as long as the men around her wants to support her.

THAT is what I'm saying.


I wish you well,

  Camerius