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RE: Enslaved Free Women


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RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/3/2009 8:33:10 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hello Xian,

You say you are his woman, you obey his word, act in the manner he expects.  Is that free? I dunno, for me,  I act in the manner I expect, and the first person I am accountable to is me.  I have to face myself in the mirror, I have to decide if I acted within my OWN set of morals and ethics.  While there are times I may choose to defer to my FC, there are also times I do not, if I don't feel if it is right for me.   Which honestly doesn't happen very often.  But it's still my right to choose.  That is the point I am making.

I'm not sure why it's so important for you to be considered  or consider yourself a Gorean Free Woman; if you are happy, and you are making your husband happy, what is the difference? 

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to XaviersXian)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/3/2009 11:02:31 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Hiya Liz,

From my comprehension it seems Xian is exploring thoughts and feelinsg she has, trying to determine certain things. In the end she may find that she is still a slave, or that she is Free. From an objective view, neither is bad or good, they are just different ends of the same spectrum. What I find interesting is that this topic has me reading some old topics, and no one seems to talk about the shades of grey in between the two ends of the spectrum. I believe those are the areas that many explore in, and once they find their path, will end up at one or the other. That journey though could take a short or long time, maybe even a lifetime.

Xian,

Work out your feelings and thoughts, and do not worry about labels to much at this time. With recent events in your life, it is perfectly normal to be introspective and try and define what you are. If the effort to define yourself, exceeds the sum of being yourself, then you are going in the wrong direction.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/3/2009 1:34:09 PM   
XaviersXian


Posts: 525
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,

Hi Elizabeth,

I obey my husband from a totally different mindset than I had as his slave.  When collared, it was about blind, unquestioning obedience, regardless of my opinions or desires; these days, thanks to the "obligation" of the collar being lifted from me, it's about questioning *my* motivations before obeying, whether or not I am obeying out of former training or habits, and whether or not I feel ok within myself to exercise obedience. If I feel pressured, or anything else, I respectfully decline to do as I'm told, and due to my feelings for my husband, give him a reason. 

I don't see a desire to obey a man as the exclusive territory of a woman who identifies as a slave.  I think, for some women, the desire to obey and make a man happy is just a natural part of loving him.

I wish you well.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/3/2009 2:02:26 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline 		Hello Xian,

I hope you are thinking why being seen as, or seeing yourself as a Gorean free woman is so important to you, as it seems to be the case.  You may not be a Gorean free woman, you may not be a slave, what you can be is.... your natural self.   Take the advice you have heard here, and be happy with who and what you are, as you are now, and as you evolve and grow.  And as Orion has said, I hope it takes a lifetime of discovery.  It's not about the destination, or the label but rather the journey.   I hope I never "arrive", but always continue to grow and learn. 

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to XaviersXian)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/3/2009 5:42:54 PM   
XaviersXian


Posts: 525
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,

Hi Elizabeth,

I feel the same way.  I am not the same person I was even a month ago.  I will not be the same person I am now in a year's time.  I will have learned, and grown from my experiences.  Life is a constant journey, and one that should be savoured, no matter what the destination.

Take care as well,

Xian

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/4/2009 8:15:00 PM   
Hiskajirah


Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
Status: offline 		Greetings FW Xian

I have to respect your current status and will address you accordingly. I'm feeling that I can understand relatively well your external journey as well as your internal one. I think you are on a path of further self discovery and this is always a good thing. Like your husband, if I were to ever be freed, my Master may also give me a stipulation that if I cannot handle the responsibility of being free..  should I be allowed to retain it? Back would come the collar and most likely quite swiftly before another could claim me. I see little wrong with this either. I think it say's a lot about a man.

You said in a previous post "I am his woman, and as his woman, I obey him". If I'm reading correctly you are stating this in the "present sense". It was also ask "Is that free"? In my humble opinion... freedom is not nulled by obeying, remaining his woman, supporting him, fetching him supper, being at his side, or deferring in any sense. Free women companions still serve, as can free women without companionship. They can choose to obey or dis-obey, if you obey, it is your decision to do so. Your personal choice.

Believe in yourself.. I do.

Warm wishes,
~twinkle




_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

(in reply to XaviersXian)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/5/2009 1:16:31 PM   
XaviersXian


Posts: 525
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,

Hi twinkle,

Thank you.  I truly appreciate it.

I wish you well.

(in reply to Hiskajirah)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/5/2009 3:09:55 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Xian,

  I have noticed from you throughout this thread and others, that you frequently apologize to people, specifically FW, for your opinions and the possability of them offending others.

As a FW, you have no need to apologize for stating your opinions or expressing your views. You need not feel bad or inferior for wanting to learn and not yet having as much knowledge as some others may have. We all had to begin somewhere and not a one of us know everything, quite the contrary Xian.

We each walk our own path and learn every step of the way and inded as Orion has stated, it takes a lifetime.

I admire your eagerness to learn and grow. I would only suggest that along your way, if it is freedom you find yourself desiring and feeling that is where your heart truly belongs, that you do so with confidence and strong conviction.

Know that you do not need validation to be a Gorean FW, just be a Gorean FW thru coming t o understand and live by the philos and standards layed out for such a path.

Live by those standards and your own strongly and with faith and not worry so much about what others may think of yiou or how they view you.

That is the only advice I can think to give that could benefit you.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to XaviersXian)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/5/2009 4:03:49 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4018
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maahsatti
I have noticed from you throughout this thread and others, that you frequently apologize to people, specifically FW, for your opinions and the possability of them offending others.

As a FW, you have no need to apologize for stating your opinions or expressing your views. You need not feel bad or inferior for wanting to learn and not yet having as much knowledge as some others may have.

And may I respectfully add that you don't need to do those things as a slave either. At least not in my Master's house................luci

_____________________________

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats." - H. L. Mencken

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/5/2009 11:48:22 PM   
XaviersXian


Posts: 525
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Hello everyone,

Hi Maahsatti,

Thank you so much for the advice.  Everyone has been so supportive of me, and so willing to share information.  I often say that I'm grateful, but I cannot truly find the words to express just how grateful I am.  Learning about who I am, and knowledge that helps to enrich my life in some way are the most precious things to me.  Every time someone gives me even a small nugget that I can use to further myself, it feels like christmas to me.

I find that I learn something new about myself, and generally being a FW every day.  I'm adjusting to the change faster and more comfortably than I anticipated I would.  It feels good! 

I'm also finding that the habits I learned as a slave are difficult to shake; I'm sure that eventually the habit of  being "small" before others will diminish, and I'll find my own groove and comfort level.

I wish you well.

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 3:34:49 AM   
serisa


Posts: 219
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Please do not assume that I am offended or upset....that's rather offensive....;-p
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian
hi Kimveri,

Thanks for the input re my post.  I'm very sorry if I've somehow offended or upset you.  It wasn't my intention. 


Please do not assume that I am offended or upset....that's rather offensive....;-p
I have a rather blunt & direct manner, & I rarely coddle anyone's feelings. Free peeps should be able to handle that....slaves can go whine to their master

Kimveri

I often learn a great deal from what you have to say but some things do puzzle me.... as far as i can see XaviersXian said that she was sorry IF she had offended or upset you.  To me the use of the word 'if' implies that she is not certain if she has or not but would like to apologise just in case....

I dont see how that means that she has 'assumed' anything.  You may have a blunt and direct manner and thats fine but it does bother me why someone who it seems is just being good mannered gets responded to in such an agressive manner.

Perhaps i have totally got the tone of your response all wrong..... if so, maybe its possible you got the tone of XaviersXian all wrong taking it to be sarcastic or somethng.  I think its the main flaw of interaction here on cm that when you cannot hear the tone of someones voice it is very easy to misinterpret something and take it the wrong way.... words are cold and flat and have no emotion to them.

I dont believe there would be nearly as many confusion and jumping to the wrong conclusion if we could hear each others voices.  Sadly thats not to be so maybe we should be asking a few more questions for clarity before jumping down each others throats.

I know Goreans dislike those who are passive agressive and are often blunt and direct... but i dont interpret this as meaning 'directly agressive for little or no good reason'.

Best wishes



(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 3:38:59 AM   
serisa


Posts: 219
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		I think this was a wonderful reply Maahsatti and also from ElizabethAnn in your last reply.  Its these sort of answers that to me personally make me feel great respect.  That is not just the sort of respect that is 'expected' but respect that is felt in a very genuine way.
I would have felt very grateful if it was me to whom the answers were directed


< Message edited by serisa -- 12/7/2009 3:44:16 AM >

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 4:10:23 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		MsSerisa,

I guess ya missed the ;-P smiley?

You think she should continue to apologize for her every post? You think she ought to give a fuck if I, or anyone else here (all strangers to her!) are offended? I think if all of us matter LESS, then her questions will likely be answered more readily ....

....in the quiet solitude of self-study.

Adieu,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to serisa)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 5:07:34 AM   
serisa


Posts: 219
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		sorry Kimveri, i am going to have to hold my hands up here and admit that I dont know what ; - P means.  If i dont get a reply i will try and find out.  Please can anyone tell me what title these things come under?,chat abbreviations?.  I had better see if there are any others i dont know or it could well be me who does not understand.  Back to school i reckon !

Thank you

p.s  just a little joke i have heard elsewhere.... that you can always spot a woman who is submissive in nature as she apologises for things all the time (even if not their fault !).  Masters/Men, you can test it out if you want in the Vanilla world on a woman you suspect has a submissive nature.... literally walk into her on purpose and see if she apologises to you !.  I dont know why but i think pretty often this rings true


< Message edited by serisa -- 12/7/2009 5:13:45 AM >

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 5:32:41 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: serisa
sorry Kimveri, i am going to have to hold my hands up here and admit that I dont know what ; - P means.  If i dont get a reply i will try and find out.  Please can anyone tell me what title these things come under?,chat abbreviations?.  I had better see if there are any others i dont know or it could well be me who does not understand.  Back to school i reckon !


You're kidding, right? =)

You can't be serious.. ;-D

You've never encountered the various smiley faces used in text online before?? >_<

I must admit, Lady Serisa, I find that a tad difficult to accept. o,O

Adios!

~Kimveri

oh...yeah....that's what they're called -- "smiley faces" -- even though some are used to convey emotions other than humor, as I tried to illustrate.

< Message edited by Kimveri -- 12/7/2009 5:36:21 AM >

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to serisa)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 7:11:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emoticons

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to serisa)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 10:28:00 AM   
serisa


Posts: 219
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you very much Musicmystery, this was just what i needed ! :)

(no, i was not kidding !)

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 11:03:27 AM   
serisa


Posts: 219
Joined: 9/28/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I got wondering: is a slave that longs to be free because of her internal forces actually a free woman in a collar? or is she just a slave in denial (as the books would have you believe?). I also got wondering about what exactly constitutes "freedom" for a woman that has been enslaved? is it the removal of a collar? is it a man declaring her a free woman (regardless of her internal makeup)? is it something else?. After spending the entire evening reading through old posts, I couldn't come to any conclusions.
quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian

Hello XaviersXian and hope all is well.

Going back to your original questions i would say that there are mainly two reasons why a slave may long to be free.... could be that her personality and nature do not suit slavery  and she would be better suited to life as a FW.... or possibly that its not actually slavery she wishes to escape but the Master in question to whom she belongs and the conditions to which she is held in.

Although technically you cant have a FW in a collar (unless she is enslaved) i guess what you are saying most closely relates to the slave who is not very suited to slavery  - and would do better being free.

I think that for the woman who is enslaved 'freedom' could mean either being released /set free from slavery and free to seek another Master.  On the other hand there are those who say that they  find freedom IN slavery.  I think someone else mentioned this concept and considered it to be a bit laughable (sorry cant remember,was it percieved to be a bit of a BDSM concept or something?).  However, many i believe find freedom in slavery in that they are able to express their true nature which the confines of the Vanilla world will not allow.

I guess also that there are women who can be officially free (unowned) by status but who has a slave heart by nature which is what i think you were trying to get at in your last question.  I think maybe you really answered your own questions in a sense in that you tried to look at things from different angles and realised that there is not just one answer.

I agree with Orion that you are simply trying to work through your  thoughts and feelings by asking others for their own, and think thats fine

Best wishes



< Message edited by serisa -- 12/7/2009 11:08:05 AM >

(in reply to XaviersXian)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 11:23:48 AM   
XaviersXian


Posts: 525
Joined: 9/8/2007
From: Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
You think she should continue to apologize for her every post? You think she ought to give a fuck if I, or anyone else here (all strangers to her!) are offended? I think if all of us matter LESS, then her questions will likely be answered more readily ....

Hello everyone,

Hi Kimveri,

I am not influenced by other's opinions of me or my actions.  I never have been (goodness knows, if that was the case, I wouldn't have taken the actions that I have in my life, nor followed the moral and life path that I have!).

My latest actions and reactions come from the fact that I believe that those more experienced than me in whatever area of life that I am interested in (be it parenting, Gorean thought, or cooking....) have something to teach me, and knowledge that I can learn from, and integrate into my own sense of self.

There is also the fact that I spent nearly a decade exploring what I was certain was a slave heart and what it was to be a slave to certain men along the way.  I have lots of ingrained habits and attitudes from those slaveries to get rid of, something that doesn't and won't happen overnight.  Give me time, and I'll find exactly the place I'm meant to be in, both around here, and in life in general *grins*.  I am not one to hesitate to act when I find something that feels right to me!.

I wish you well.

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Enslaved Free Women - 12/7/2009 3:37:56 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Hello, Xian,

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian
Give me time, and I'll find exactly the place I'm meant to be in, both around here, and in life in general *grins*.  I am not one to hesitate to act when I find something that feels right to me!.


That's excellent, however....keep in mind that what feels right for us (specifically women, but all humans generally) can grow into less-than-'right' as we ourselves grow, change & take on new challenges, adversities & responsibilities.

Humans are genetically predisposed to all sorts of behaviors. This was a recurring theme of Norman's & something we tend to rarely discuss, except where it involves the possibility of seeing tits! (winks at Ron & Un)

One of the ways we grow involves the journey from newly mated couple, high on our lust-induced dopamine flood in the brain, to the calmer, more responsible pair-bonded couple whose focus has extended to include a future beyond their own -- their offspring.

These situations cause chemical changes in our bodies & hence in our behaviors, priorities & desires. Ignoring those changes in the hopes of maintaining the status quo in our personal mindset, self-identity or the relationship dynamics with which we are comfortable can lead to all the neuroses Norman railed about in the novels. Supressing ourselves, our gentically selected-for-success behaviors, is never healthy.

We need to embrace the growth that comes with time, experience & the accumulation of wisdom. Tradition & comfort have their place & their value, but never at the cost of our own truths, as individuals or as a species.

You will find many places in the span of a full life that "feel right" for you. When they no longer feel so, don't fret too much, & never regret. Move forward & find the next place that feels right.

And...remember something I heard a wise Gorean woman say long ago....

The journey is more important than the destination.

Well wishes!

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to XaviersXian)
Profile   Post #: 60
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