Enslaved Free Women (Full Version)

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XaviersXian -> Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 2:53:47 PM)

Hello everyone,

I was reading through the archives last night, and a theme cropped up over and over again.  There were many threads about an unowned slave wanting to be owned (and not being a slave until she was actually collared by a man) but hardly any about an owned (internally) free woman wanting to be freed. 

I got wondering: is a slave that longs to be free because of her internal forces actually a free woman in a collar? or is she just a slave in denial (as the books would have you believe?).  I also got wondering about what exactly constitutes "freedom" for a woman that has been enslaved? is it the removal of a collar? is it a man declaring her a free woman (regardless of her internal makeup)? is it something else?.  After spending the entire evening reading through old posts, I couldn't come to any conclusions.  I'd be appreciative of any input that might clarify things for me.

I wish you well.



ElizabethAnne -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 3:32:14 PM)

Hello xian,

I have posted a couple of questions to you on another board, and since you have deigned to not answer them there, I will make the same reply here.  You seem to have a recurring theme to your posts, to your questions.  If it mattered that much to me, I would wonder why, but since it really doesn't.  I'll repost here, most of my reply to you from there.

Since the man in your life is not Gorean, why are  Gorean philosophy, and or culture that  important  to you? Be what HE wants you to be, and the rest is insignificant.  The man determines the slavery, not the woman. Bottom line, a slave cannot be a slave without being held in mastery by a man, and cannot be a Gorean slave unless the man holding her in slavery is...yep, you got it...Gorean.  If however you are free, and have self determination, that is a far different situation; however, you have said repeatedly your Master calls you a slave.  Great.  Be a slave, be his, and not try to manipulate what you WANT Gor to be to suit your own desires.

I wish you well,
Elizabeth







XaviersXian -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 3:40:32 PM)

hello everyone,

hi Elizabeth,

I must have missed the posts on the other board (I wasn't ignoring you; I'm sorry if it seemed that way!).  I recently begged freedom from my collar, which my Master/husband/master of the house granted me.  At his request, I have my freedom, but now must prove to him that I deserve it (as I'd imagine things are here now on the boards; I must prove to others that I deserve the status change).  The new relationship is a work in progress, which is why I'm asking questions that seem similar to each other.  I feel a lot freer in myself and a lot more content since the change, and am wishing to find information that now pertains to my situation and how I see myself.

I hope this helps, if not, please feel free to cmail me!

I wish you well.



ElizabethAnne -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 3:44:53 PM)

Hello Xian,

hmm....interesting you still have "property of" as your tag line.  Guess you must have missed that too.

Take care,

Elizabeth



XaviersXian -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 3:51:56 PM)

hello everyone,

hi Elizabeth,

I did! Thank you for pointing that out!

I wish you well.



Elisabella -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 5:01:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian

Hello everyone,

I was reading through the archives last night, and a theme cropped up over and over again.  There were many threads about an unowned slave wanting to be owned (and not being a slave until she was actually collared by a man) but hardly any about an owned (internally) free woman wanting to be freed. 

I got wondering: is a slave that longs to be free because of her internal forces actually a free woman in a collar? or is she just a slave in denial (as the books would have you believe?).  I also got wondering about what exactly constitutes "freedom" for a woman that has been enslaved? is it the removal of a collar? is it a man declaring her a free woman (regardless of her internal makeup)? is it something else?.  After spending the entire evening reading through old posts, I couldn't come to any conclusions.  I'd be appreciative of any input that might clarify things for me.

I wish you well.


Hi Xian,

The thing about being free is, well, there's nobody to tell you the right way to do it. You've got to figure out what your freedom means, to you...sure you can be influenced by other's opinions, but unless you yourself have a firm idea of what your freedom is, you'll just sway this way and that with whoever's opinion you like at the moment. And if that's the case you might as well put the collar back on.

Elizabeth said your husband isn't Gorean, so I'm assuming it's a path you're pursuing for yourself? If not, well, then anything said here is irrelevant, like Elizabeth said, because there's no point in a non-Gorean trying to apply a Gorean concept to herself.

If you are pursuing the philosophy for yourself, then as an outside observer I'd suggest doing what the other Gorean Free on these boards have done which is read the books and meditate on them.

There are quite a few intelligent FW on these boards, but none of them can answer the question "What does Xian's freedom mean to her" - that's your job.

ETA - one more thing about your questions regarding when a slave becomes a FW - if you're relying on someone else to tell you "you're free now," IMO you're not free yet.

I wish you well,
Bella



sunshinemiss -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 5:24:22 PM)

Hello Bella,
I'm going to disagree with this statement:

quote:



there's no point in a non-Gorean trying to apply a Gorean concept to herself.



*I didn't see where ElizabethAnne said that which is why I'm addressing you and not both of you...

I may not be a Buddhist, but I sure do meditate.  I try to utilize the Christian concepts of forgiveness and mercy in my life.  And helping my tribe / clan / group could be considered an Amish concept; I integrate that in my life too even though I'm not Amish.  I am not an intellectual, but I still can use logical thought.  I may not be a dancer, but I use some dance concepts in the way I hold my body, the way I move, to add grace and confidence to my gait.

If Xian finds some truths in the Gorean philosophies, why should she be shot down?  And as has been pointed out by a number of posters here on countless threads, the philosophy of this subculture is taken from a number of other, older philosophies.

I think her question is an excellent one. In fact I would say that many of the women on this board who have switched statuses have asked it themselves.  I sure have.  Xian makes the point that her relationship is a work in progress.  That is a very mature attitude.  A wise person walks through life gathering information rather than re-inventing the wheel all the time.   I'm pretty sure that most of the folks here have wheels of some sort in their homes.  [:D]

Perhaps the answer is that there is no answer.  And that's fine, too.

best,
sunshine


*edited for grammar.



Elisabella -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 5:40:57 PM)

Hi Sunshine,

You're right, I quite possibly misread the intent of Elizabeth's post - it was this part that made me think what I did:
quote:

Since the man in your life is not Gorean, why are Gorean philosophy, and or culture that important to you?


I wasn't trying to shoot her down or tell her that she wouldn't gain anything from integrating parts of Gorean philosophy into her life, as I myself find a lot of value in certain parts of Gorean thought, but rather trying to say that if she views herself as free, but not Gorean, then it doesn't matter if she conforms to the *Gorean* ideal of a FW since she isn't a Gorean FW.

To give an example - you might integrate the Christian ideals of forgiveness and mercy into your life, but you can't be a "Bad Christian" for not going to church every week if you don't *identify* as a Christian. That's what I was trying to get across - performing the actions without subscribing to the beliefs behind them seems futile to me.

I definitely agree that viewing the relationship as a work in progress is a very mature way of looking at it...but at the same time I stand by my statement that if you're asking others if you're free, I'd say regardless of their answer, you're not quite there yet. Of course, that's using 'free' as an identity you claim for yourself, rather than simply one's status of bondage.

I wish you well,
Bella



sunshinemiss -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 5:55:40 PM)

Hey there Bella,
Thanks for the response.  When a gal's status changes, there is always that transitional period.  That's how I see where she is.  I think many people have gone through that, and it was an interesting question.  What else I find interesting is that over and over the transition from Free to enslaved has been debated, but this other transition has not.  I hadn't realized it, but wow.  Sometimes what is not said is as important as what is said. 

As far as futility in using the tools from various religions / philosophies / cultures?  I couldn't disagree more.  As they say in AA and other 12 step programs - "take what you need, and leave the rest."  I expect we'll just agree to disagree on this point.  I'm down with that.

You are correct about being Free as a state of individual identity.  However, I don't see anywhere in her post where she was asking others what it means for her to be Free.  She has asked for information that pertains to her situation (as any number of OTHER Free have done in other threads) as well as a number of philosophical questions that are about the underpinnings of this group. That is no different from any number of other questions that are raised on this board. 

Best,
sunshine 



BeingChewsie -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 7:22:54 PM)

Hi Xian,

I have a question, if your husband former owner had said "No" to your request or "yes" with the condition that he would divorce you and that you would have to leave him would you still have chosen freedom? I'm curious simply because I know in my own life if I wanted freedom, it would be under that condition alone, that has always seemed too high price to pay for me. Thanks, that might help me better understand what you are asking. I think the question goes a long way into determining how free you are as well.


quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian

Hello everyone,

I was reading through the archives last night, and a theme cropped up over and over again. There were many threads about an unowned slave wanting to be owned (and not being a slave until she was actually collared by a man) but hardly any about an owned (internally) free woman wanting to be freed. 

I got wondering: is a slave that longs to be free because of her internal forces actually a free woman in a collar? or is she just a slave in denial (as the books would have you believe?).  I also got wondering about what exactly constitutes "freedom" for a woman that has been enslaved? is it the removal of a collar? is it a man declaring her a free woman (regardless of her internal makeup)? is it something else?.  After spending the entire evening reading through old posts, I couldn't come to any conclusions.  I'd be appreciative of any input that might clarify things for me.

I wish you well.



tsatske -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 7:33:18 PM)

Sorry, wrong thread. more than one tab up at once. appologies.



XaviersXian -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 7:43:47 PM)

Hi everyone,

I'm going to answer a few questions from people, all at once:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Hi Xian,



Hi Elisabella!

quote:



The thing about being free is, well, there's nobody to tell you the right way to do it. You've got to figure out what your freedom means, to you...



I've been here and done this, which is why I felt the need to beg release in the first place.  I am not one to do something without thinking the consequences through very thoroughly first.

quote:



Elizabeth said your husband isn't Gorean, so I'm assuming it's a path you're pursuing for yourself?



Yep.  I've been on this path for nearly a decade, well before I met him.

quote:



If you are pursuing the philosophy for yourself, then as an outside observer I'd suggest doing what the other Gorean Free on these boards have done which is read the books and meditate on them.



I'm working on it.  With life the way it is though (currently 3 young children, and one traditionally minded man to take care of) it's a long, slow process.

Have a great day!

Hi Elizabeth,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Since the man in your life is not Gorean, why are  Gorean philosophy, and or culture that  important  to you?


Well, honestly, I've been "Gorean" all my life.  I was raised within a "Gorean" family, though it was never identified as that (both my matriarchal and patriarchal families are "Gorean" in their outlook; there is not a 2nd or 3rd wave feminist amongst them).  The men held complete control over the women (while being "old fashioned gentlemen" in their conduct towards them) and the children observed, and towed the line as children, respecting and obeying their elders, and picking up the behavioural patterns of the same sex adults around them.

The books just happen to echo the same values and ideals that my family raised me with, and are as fundamental to me as breathing.  Over the years, I've attempted to change how I see the world (with disasterous results).  The one thing that I've found is a constant in my life is my belief and natural adherence to "Gorean" philosophy.  I've found that regardless of whatever path I choose to follow at a given time, I'll always "fall back" very naturally and comfortably on those traditional beliefs.  I find that some aspects of "Gorean" culture magnify the sense of freedom that I feel (belly dance, and veiling myself are two examples that make me feel "right" within myself) so I adhere to them where I feel I wish to (or in a social setting, as I feel I am able to).

I hope this helps!

I wish you well.



AnimusRex -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 8:02:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian
I recently begged freedom from my collar, which my Master/husband/master of the house granted me.  At his request, I have my freedom, but now must prove to him that I deserve it


I am just not getting this- he gave you your freedom, but now says you need to "prove" you are deserving?
Or else what? He slaps you back in chains and puts you in the basement? Facestrips you and sells you at auction?

He is your husband- Are you still living with him or are you getting what we on this planet call a divorce?
Are you planning to stay married, and just be his wife and Free Companion?

I think a bit of Earthling clarity would help things.
He is either:
A. Your husband, or
B. Your soon to be ex-husband.

You are either:
A. A married woman, or
B. A soon to be single woman.

You are either:
A. His slave
B. A Free Woman



p.s Especially if your family is of the traditionally Patriarchal vein, things should be much simpler and more clear than you are making them; I doubt your grandma ever sat around pondering what she was; she knew exactly what that gold band on her finger meant.



Kimveri -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 8:15:37 PM)

~FR~

I'm a bit confused....

WTH do veils & belly-dancing have to do with living life inspired by Gorean philosophy??

BTW, I do get that there's a growth process (for some, not all) to be embraced when a relationship evolves to encompass the natural changes that occur when offspring become a focal point. It's a very intriguing area of research right now in several fields that I follow closely.

Also, to Sunshine...just because you have not personally witnessed a discussion on a specific topic here (or elsewhere) does not mean that said discussion has not been covered ad nauseum unbeknownst to you. A little searching of the archives of some of the older Gor groups (especially Yahoo's) might surprise you insofar as the topic you brought up.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri



XaviersXian -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 9:19:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian
I recently begged freedom from my collar, which my Master/husband/master of the house granted me.  At his request, I have my freedom, but now must prove to him that I deserve it


I am just not getting this- he gave you your freedom, but now says you need to "prove" you are deserving?
Or else what? He slaps you back in chains and puts you in the basement? Facestrips you and sells you at auction?

He is your husband- Are you still living with him or are you getting what we on this planet call a divorce?
Are you planning to stay married, and just be his wife and Free Companion?

I think a bit of Earthling clarity would help things.
He is either:
A. Your husband, or
B. Your soon to be ex-husband.

You are either:
A. A married woman, or
B. A soon to be single woman.

You are either:
A. His slave
B. A Free Woman



p.s Especially if your family is of the traditionally Patriarchal vein, things should be much simpler and more clear than you are making them; I doubt your grandma ever sat around pondering what she was; she knew exactly what that gold band on her finger meant.


Hello everyone,

AnimusRex, I married my husband for the rest of my mortal (and if you believe, immortal) life.  I do not believe in divorce, regardless of the circumstances. 

I am still a very happily married woman, and, as far as I have personal influence over that, I intend to stay that way.  I know forewell what my wedding ring entails, and I intend to honour every last commitment and promise that I've ever made to my husband.  To do anything less would be dishonouring myself, him, and everything I stand for.

There is a lot of history behind my husband's request  that I prove myself worthy to be out of his collar.  I completely understand, and fully accept his reasons for having to prove myself.  I do not believe that the history  (or his reasons, for that matter) are appropriate things to be discussed here in a public forum.

I am no longer collared in any way, shape or form, which, to my understanding, makes me a "free thinking" person ie. "Free" under Gorean philosophy.

I wish you well.



XaviersXian -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 9:35:25 PM)

Hello everyone,

Kimveri, the belly dancing and veiling comment was in reply to Elizabeth's query about the parts of the culture that are important to me.  In a general sense, I feel that the fictional Gorean culture has nothing to do with the philosophy whatsoever, that practices included in the culture exist only to support the philosophies.

I hope this helps!

I wish you well.



Elisabella -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 9:52:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex
p.s Especially if your family is of the traditionally Patriarchal vein, things should be much simpler and more clear than you are making them; I doubt your grandma ever sat around pondering what she was; she knew exactly what that gold band on her finger meant.


Oh I bet she did. I bet she wondered things like 'Should I get a job outside the home so the kids college won't drain our accounts or should I trust him when he says he can handle it,' or 'I don't think he should have another drink at the office Christmas party, do I take him aside and tell him this or will it sound like nagging,' - basically the age old question of "Do I step up when I think I should, or do I trust him when he says I shouldn't?"

In 2 months I'll be a wife. The gold band will tell me that's what I am...but it won't tell me what a *wife* is. Not exactly. It won't tell me what being SFM's wife is. I'll have to figure that out, I'll have to learn to balance things like male ego and female need for security, and wearing the ring doesn't mean "I know what I'm doing," it just means "I'm committing myself to doing my best."

I feel for you, Xian, in that you're not only going through a redefinition of *self* but also a redefinition of how you relate to your husband. But don't get too hung up on it. Be yourself, or rather, be the person you want to be, and soon enough it will be who you are.



Kimveri -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 10:24:45 PM)

Hi, Xian,

Liz will correct me if I'm wrong here but....I think she was asking why the Gorean philosophy or the culture derived from it (as in, here on earth by all of us who ascribe to it) is important to you. In that context, your remark about belly-dancing (slave-dancing in the books) & veils seemed almost to be trivializing what living as a free Gorean entails.

Also, imo, a person who is enslaved (as in mastered by another person) isn't Free....so your thread title seems contradictory. The collar is irrelevant in defining either the person's nature {greatest potential} OR their interactions {relationship dynamics}. It may be a result of one, the other, or both of those things....but it is merely one of many possible results. It is not a causative factor.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri



Hierodule -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 10:36:00 PM)

Congratulations!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
In 2 months I'll be a wife.




XaviersXian -> RE: Enslaved Free Women (11/29/2009 11:16:34 PM)

hello everyone,

hi Kimveri,

Thanks for the input re my post.  I'm very sorry if I've somehow offended or upset you.  It wasn't my intention. 

I'm always appreciative of people sharing their experiences, or their opinions on the philosophies and issues around that and what have you.  In some way (whether it is a small realisation or a bigger one) I learn from everything I read.

I wish you well.



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