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RE: A question concerning a gorean slave.


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RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 7:45:38 PM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
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Tal Trevelyan,

Nicely summed up and what I fully agrees with.

I wish you well,

  Camerius


_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 7:49:07 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
I would like to add that the opposites which you also named (being conquered, compliance, softness, submitted will), are also valued by Goreans, as fitting for slaves. They are qualities that complements, and emphasizes by contrast, the values that are applied to the free.


There is a difference between personality traits & moral values. I believe you are using the two interchangeably, which is beside the point.

Living by the Gorean Morality, as defined by the author, is how one is a Gorean. Slaves do not live by the Gorean Morality as defined by the author.

That does not mean that the characteristics of a good slave are not themselves valuable. It means those traits are simply not moral values which the author delineates as specific to the Gorean Morality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
I do not think female slaves would be described so fondly in the books if their existance were merely to represent the immoral and perverse.


Again, you are confusing different moral values with a complete LACK of moral values. Not living by the Gorean Morality does not mean one is either immoral nor amoral. It simply means that the moral values one does live by are not those of the Gorean Morality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
However, if you believe that Gorean morality is limited to only those four words, to the explicit exclusion of everything else, then indeed there is no place for slaves in your thinking.


Your assumptions, presumptions & attitude are displeasing. As is your lack of effort. Not surprising, but certainly not pleasing. But don't worry, you need not make any further effort on my account -- you're now consigned to the muchly populated world of block.

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 8:41:44 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Living by the Gorean Morality, as defined by the author, is how one is a Gorean. Slaves do not live by the Gorean Morality as defined by the author.

That does not mean that the characteristics of a good slave are not themselves valuable. It means those traits are simply not moral values which the author delineates as specific to the Gorean Morality.


If we are to debate the matter based on definitions laid out by the author, then please consider the following passage, taken from Marauders of Gor:

quote:


Many Earth moralities encourage resignation and accommodation; Gorean morality is bent more towards conquest and defiance; many Earth moralities encourage tenderness, pity and gentleness, sweetness; Gorean morality encourages honor, courage, hardness and strength.


I would draw attention to the words, "bent more toward" and "encourages". The recommended reading was hardly clear cut definitions of moral values. Nor is it all inclusive and exhaustive.

Consider also:
quote:


they do not hate and fear their bodies or their instincts; when they restrain themselves it is a victory over titanic forces; not the consequence of a slow metabolism; but sometimes they do not restrain themselves; they do not assume that their instincts and blood are enemies and spies, saboteurs in the house of themselves; they know them and welcome them as part of their persons


It is said that it is in the instinct of the female to submit to strong males. Thus, how can females slaves, who follow their instincts and submits, not be part of Gorean morality?

I would submit, that a person should not declare the contents of two pages of text as the complete description of the morality of a culture which was described over the course of well over twenty books. One should not see a patch of leather and call it a cow.

Ultimately, the point I wish to make is this: Gorean slaves do exist, and they are as much Gorean as they are slaves. They are an integral part of Gorean culture. Any interpretation of Gorean morality which does not take into account the existance of slaves, would be either inaccurate or incomplete.

< Message edited by S2 -- 11/30/2009 9:01:07 PM >

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 9:14:14 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
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quote:

ORIGINAL: S2

It is said that it is in the instinct of the female to submit to strong males. Thus, how can females slaves, who follow their instincts and submits, not be part of Gorean morality?


Natural stratification is part of the Gorean philosophy, and morality. Slavery as presented here, not in the series, is a part of that natural stratification. This does not mean that slavery itself is part of that morality, but a part of the beliefs that comprise all of the idealogy. Do you see the difference there? If it makes it easier to understand, then think of Gorean Morality as the morality of the free, the ethics and codes by which a Free person determines for themselves how they will live. A slave lives not by their own ethics, but by those of their owner. They inherit the morals and ethics of the person that masters them internally.

quote:


I would submit, that a person should not declare the contents of two pages of text as the complete description of the morality of a culture which was described over the course of well over twenty books. One should not see a patch of leather and call it a cow.


Keep the strawman away please, your analogy does not fit. Kimveri has not said that it is the entirety, but it is one of the few places that a good core synopsis is given. If you have a rejection of what she has proposed, put it forth in a cohesive argument, not a platitude.

quote:


Ultimately, the point I wish to make is this: Gorean slaves do exist, and they are as much Gorean as they are slaves. They are an integral part of Gorean culture. Any interpretation of Gorean morality which does not take into account the existance of slaves, would be either inaccurate or incomplete.


I will agree that slaves can be Gorean, because I for one do not believe that Gorean Morality defines all things Gorean. I believe that Gorean Morality defines Gorean Free. Part of Gorean Morality not mentioned in the passages quoted, is natural stratification of a species or group, and slaves are a reflection of that.

So in my opinion, you are partially correct. Slaves are not part of Gorean Morality, but they are and can be Gorean. A Gorean slave though is a slave that is owned by a Gorean. If they are not owned by a Gorean, then how can they follow Gorean Morality? They instead follow whatever morality their owner has.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 10:16:55 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Natural stratification is part of the Gorean philosophy, and morality. Slavery as presented here, not in the series, is a part of that natural stratification. This does not mean that slavery itself is part of that morality, but a part of the beliefs that comprise all of the idealogy.


If slavery is part of natural stratification, and natural stratification is part of morality, does that not mean slavery is part of morality?

If A is part of B, and B is part of C, then A is part of C.
or
If C includes all of B, and B includes all of A, then C includes A.

I believe those to be logically correct.

quote:


If it makes it easier to understand, then think of Gorean Morality as the morality of the free, the ethics and codes by which a Free person determines for themselves how they will live.


If it is believed to be right and moral by the free to enslave another, does it not still suggest that slavery, if not slaves themselves, are part of that morality?

quote:


A slave lives not by their own ethics, but by those of their owner. They inherit the morals and ethics of the person that masters them internally.


That is an interesting point which I have not considered, that slaves do not possess morality of their own.

quote:


I believe that Gorean Morality defines Gorean Free.


I do not think the following is what you meant, but, if Gorean Morality is defined as Morality exclusive to the Gorean Free, then slaves are indeed excluded, by definition. I can accept that.

quote:


Keep the strawman away please, your analogy does not fit. Kimveri has not said that it is the entirety, but it is one of the few places that a good core synopsis is given. If you have a rejection of what she has proposed, put it forth in a cohesive argument, not a platitude.


I apologise, I have indeed been negligent and careless on that point. However, the following words in her response seemed to imply that she have fully summarized Gorean morality:
quote:

Ok, let's cut to the chase then: which of the following values of the Gorean Morality (as delineated by J.N. not me) do you feel slaves exemplify?

"conquest"

"defiance"

"hardness"

"strength"


My response to that particular post may have been overly aggressive. However, she chose not confirm or deny my assumption.

< Message edited by S2 -- 11/30/2009 11:11:00 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 11:32:21 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1564
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Greetings S2....

quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
Thank you for the corrections.

May I ask how you would define the term "Gorean slave"?


I would define that term as a person on the planet Gor from the books who was a slave. In other words, they are Gorean because they are from or currently resident on the planet Gor. Earth Goreans are defined by the system we live by. For all other purposes, we are Earthmen, not Goreans.

Be well....

Malkinius


_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 11:37:12 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you for the clarification :)

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 11/30/2009 11:38:57 PM   
Malkinius


Posts: 1564
Joined: 1/9/2004
Status: offline 		Tal Orion....

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

<snip>

I will agree that slaves can be Gorean, because I for one do not believe that Gorean Morality defines all things Gorean. I believe that Gorean Morality defines Gorean Free. Part of Gorean Morality not mentioned in the passages quoted, is natural stratification of a species or group, and slaves are a reflection of that.

So in my opinion, you are partially correct. Slaves are not part of Gorean Morality, but they are and can be Gorean. A Gorean slave though is a slave that is owned by a Gorean. If they are not owned by a Gorean, then how can they follow Gorean Morality? They instead follow whatever morality their owner has.

Live well,
Orion


Sorry...but no. A slave can have BEEN Gorean before they were enslaved. They obviously still hold all the knowledge and values they held before that. But one of the core things that most here are missing that defines a Gorean is taking responsibility for the freedom to choose what they do. A slave can be required to do other than they would choose to do and the responsibility for her actions rests not with her but with her Owner. It is those two things that are key to keeping a slave from being Gorean. They can only be a Gorean's slave here on Earth.

Note: This is a very well trod subject both here and many other places Gorean.

Be well....

Malkinius

_____________________________

A questioner by inclination...An Auctioneer for the fun of it
http://www.HouseMalkinius.com The goal is beauty.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 3:58:45 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Slaves of Gorean Men are not self determining, therefore, they don't have the ability to determine themselves to be anything - its been determined for them that they are slaves. They are slaves because they themselves are susceptible and accepting of the mastery of the Man who has made this determination for them. They are slaves by the determination of Men or more specifically the Man who has determined to master and enslave them. The slave's connection to Gorean is through her Master -- period. Anything else allows for self-determination and that is what FW have -- not slaves of Gorean Men. In all actuality -- to remotely allow slaves of Gorean Men to THINK they are of a level wherein they are capable of BEING Gorean is raising them to a level that was never allowed them in the books. Sorry but slaves of Gorean Men despite the pedestal people try and put them on, are in fact the lowest level and they aren't remotely deserving of a LABEL of that of Gorean as if its something they are capable of holding as an identity -- which in our society -- Gorean Free HOLD the identification of Gorean through their self-determination to choose such identification.

I think too many non-Gorean people get hung up on the concept of being a Gorean slave so much so that they completely disregard the very concept of what Gorean slaves do -- they live simply by the determinations of their Masters and because their Masters are Gorean, that is the only connection they themselves have to Gorean. It utterly amazes me when non-Gorean slaves run around wanting to be Gorean slaves because if you really listen to what they say they are saying -- well the way my Master is holding me is not good enough for me so i want to become a Gorean slave. That is the FARTHEST mindset from being a Gorean slave. I once asked a Gorean Man why you never see Gorean slaves running around wanting to be and explore and find out about other types of slaveries, and his answer was simple -- because Gorean slaves have the expectation to not be curious --- here's the truth of the curiosity quote. Women who are owned by Gorean Men are not allowed to decipher where their Master wishes them to go in their slavery, they do not attempt to determine their slavery, they simply live through the determination of their Masters. The bottom line is non-Gorean slaves who are trying to become Gorean slaves aren't satisified with the Man's determination for them. Gorean slaves tend to be, which is why they aren't running around trying to determine other slaveries and trying to do what those slaveries do. Its not their place as slaves.

I see many non-Gorean slaves think learning Gorean slavery somehow makes her more or gives her Master more -- this is not true. Its not, the protocols are expectations of the Men who own the girls. The protocols are NOT inherently Gorean. However, a Man's mastery and his determinations due to his being Gorean create a whole concept the Gorean slave then lives by BECAUSE she is HIS slave.

Are Gorean slaves intelligent enough to be able to decipher Gorean values and moralities etc. Yes they are. However, you also have to realize that slaves of Men have a different perception of the world around them, so while they may have the ability and intelligence to decipher same, i personally do not believe they as slaves are capable of applying same nor are they capable of having the perception needed to accurately assess situations to apply same. Does this make them LESS intelligent --- no, it makes them well hell slaves. But to understand what the Free do to apply what they determine is adhering to their chosen identification of Gorean, you have to LIVE Free. If you do not live Free then you don't have the perception of life all you can do is guess at what is being perceived by the Free living their lives and their decisions to apply what they deem is adhering to their identification of being Gorean. As we are all aware, being Gorean has nothing to do with the slave or slavery --- and a slave's life IS slavery - not Gorean. To simply focus on Gorean as being the slavery is like using artificial flavoring in a blueberry pie instead of the blueberries. It may APPEAR to be like the actuality on the surface, but in the end its a poor substitute and not the real thing and therefore, doesn't in the end taste like the actuality. But then again, many people in this world settle for artificial because they don't want to put the work in creating the actuality but want to say they still have it.

Sorry but too many people try and make slaves feel MORE instead of simply recognizing that a slave of a Gorean Man is not MORE, she is simply ----------> a slave of a Gorean Man.

To me, this desire to give slaves something as valued to Goreans as the IDENTITY of being Gorean, completely goes against all what slaves are to Goreans.

angel





< Message edited by barelynangel -- 12/1/2009 4:58:29 AM >

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 4:54:00 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Malkinius,

I d not see it as a thing hat turns of and on like a light switch. As was stated in my post to S2, I agree that a slave does not live by a Gorean Morality, because they are a slave. This does not mean they are not Gorean. orean Morality is what defines the Free. There is more to the philosophy (I make a distinction here between philosophy and morality) than just Gorean Morality, as it encompassess all of nature, and the natural human behavior that Norman speaks off. If this were not so, then as we did not live up to the virtues outlined as Gorean Morality, we would stop being Gorean, and then as we fulfilled them we would become Gorean again. That is pretty illogical, especially when so many, yourself included, have said this is a path of learning.

Being a lave does not keep someone fom being Gorean, it just keeps them from attaining a Gorean Morality. Belief in natural stratification, which is part of Gorean Philosophy, kind of proves that. It is one of those you cannot have yin without yang things. You cannot believe in one part of that bell curve and dismiss the other.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Sorry...but no. A slave can have BEEN Gorean before they were enslaved. They obviously still hold all the knowledge and values they held before that. But one of the core things that most here are missing that defines a Gorean is taking responsibility for the freedom to choose what they do. A slave can be required to do other than they would choose to do and the responsibility for her actions rests not with her but with her Owner. It is those two things that are key to keeping a slave from being Gorean. They can only be a Gorean's slave here on Earth.

Note: This is a very well trod subject both here and many other places Gorean.

Be well....

Malkinius


< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 12/1/2009 5:04:36 AM >

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Malkinius)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 4:59:32 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Good mornin', Orion,


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Natural stratification is part of the Gorean philosophy, and morality. Slavery as presented here, not in the series, is a part of that natural stratification. This does not mean that slavery itself is part of that morality, but a part of the beliefs that comprise all of the idealogy. Do you see the difference there?


This is, indeed, where some of the confusion is originating, in my opinion. There are key concepts, like natural order, which are viewed as fundamental philosophical principles. The problem comes in when people treat philosophical tenets like moral values. Philosophy & morality are not interchangeable.

IOW, a slave may, if the master allows, to follow the Gorean philosophy in many aspects of her life, but her "code of right conduct" - her morality - is determined by her master, not by herself. Someone else decides how she will behave, why she will behave that way, when she will behave in various ways & that someone else sees to it that she does so, & with exquisite beauty, if he's Gorean! ;-P

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
If it makes it easier to understand, then think of Gorean Morality as the morality of the free, the ethics and codes by which a Free person determines for themselves how they will live.


Except that morality is different than ethics, which is different than the codes, which is also different than philosophy. One can adhere to many of the philosophical concepts & not ever form a whole new morality. We see that around us all the time. :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I will agree that slaves can be Gorean, because I for one do not believe that Gorean Morality defines all things Gorean. I believe that Gorean Morality defines Gorean Free. Part of Gorean Morality not mentioned in the passages quoted, is natural stratification of a species or group, and slaves are a reflection of that.


However, that's not what you said in your opening paragraph, with which I agreed. Now I see you using the two terms as though they are the same thing, when they are not.

Natural order is a philosophical tenet, not a moral value. It does not have to do with how we CHOOSE to conduct our lives. Natural order has to do with human nature, whether we choose to see it, acknowledge it, incorporate it, or consciously act in alignment with it (which seems a tad UNnatural, to me).

Natural order is a truth of human nature. Upon learning this truth, many people might find that it alters how they look at life. In time that may alter how they live....but it is unlikely to ever become a moral code, a rule of how to behave, because then it is no longer natural.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
If they are not owned by a Gorean, then how can they follow Gorean Morality? They instead follow whatever morality their owner has.


Huh? Are you suggesting that a slave follows the same morality as her master? You conduct yourself in business so that your word on a project is golden, your handshakes MEAN something, yes? You expect that same sort of ability to back what she says/promises from your slave? Are you stating that she can give promises without your knowledge? She can take responsibility for deciding to what lengths she must go in order to ensure she keeps her promises, vows & oaths?

I have great issue with this chain of thought, Orion.....her word is only as golden as YOURS is. YOU are the person determining both your moral code as well as her moral code. YOU are responsible for whether she keeps (indeed, MAKES) any promises. YOU are responsible for how she behaves. While you may stress that her "highest duties" are "exquisite beauty & absolute obedience", those are not YOUR moral values, they are the values YOU have chosen for her to guide & direct her conduct.

Unless those ARE your moral values.....

*ponders, then shakes my head, squicked by the thought of Orion behaving thusly* ;-P

I wish you most well!

~Kimveri



_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 5:12:47 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		~FR~

I think that maybe the problem here is between believing & acting. One can come face to face with various truths - i.e. one's own nature, human sexuality, natural human stratifications, etc. - one can believe them to be true, natural, & part of oneself & humanity. But putting them into conscious action is a while 'nother ballgame.

When one chooses to act, one takes responsibility. When one chooses to act, one accepts that one is accountable for the results. When a slave acts.....I do not look to the slave, but to the master. The master is who I consider to be responsible for the choices involved & also who I consider to be accountable for the consequences.

quote:


"Man can think; he must act. In the midst of impenetrable mysteries, not caring for him, beyond him, he behaves, he chooses, he acts. Wisdom decrees that the fruit of thought must not be planted where it cannot bear fruit." ~pg258Tribesman


Well wishes,

~Kimveri



_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 5:16:53 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Kimveri,

I believe another read of that post, and the one to Malkinius may make my thoughts more clear to you. If not then when I get home later today, I will try to clarify again. Yes morality and philosophy are two different things. Ethics and codes are a reflection and foundation of one's morality (maybe that is a better clarification of that aspect).

The example at the end of your post is an odd twist. I expect that if my slave says she will do "X", then she will do "X". I expect her to conduct herself in a way that is a reflection of me. I set the guidelines by which she operates. I also do not believe that by being owned she has no responsibility in things, she has the responsibilities I have assigned her. I will not even go into the absolute obedience being impossible to attain, kind of like perfection. This does not mean it is not a benchmark that is set. While absolute was used by Norman, I believe a better word would be complete obedience, as I do not believe in absolutes (with very rare exceptions). Again though, these are guidelines I have set for her.

You are correct that I have misused morality, instead I should have used philosophy. Maybe an entire discussion on the differences may be a good topic. Maybe not as popular as talking about slaves, but one of greater importance in my opinion.

Live well,
Orion

(damn I am running late)

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 5:52:13 AM   
BloodLuna


Posts: 403
Joined: 10/28/2007
Status: offline 		Please allow me to try and see if I understand correctly then.

My original question was book and Planet Gor related.

Tarl Cabot, as he appears in Tarnsman of Gor, finding himself an Earth man on Gor, and finding himself in sudden possession of a slave born on Gor, perhaps educated in the pits of Ar, would be no more than a Barbarian man, owning a slave girl, thus making the slave girl an Earth man's slave, no longer a gorean slave girl. (And i am aware that later Tarl Cabot finds himself as a Gorean man, but I am talking about early on)

I am fascinated by the discussions of morals and ethics and philosophy. Does this mean that the gorean slave girl, trained to be a kajira, would then be expected to adopt earth morals and standards of behavior because that is what her barbarian Earth man owner operates under?

again, forgive my ignorance, I am still learning and studying.

Luna

_____________________________

"Old goths never die, they just need less makeup"



(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 10:32:41 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Howdy, lovely Luna!

I'm glad to see you back, btw. My apologies for not addressing your question more directly.

As I see it, a man whose actions (conduct) meet a civilization's concept of "right conduct" (morality) is operating with that civilization's morality. Whether he believes it 'right' or not, he is conducting himself in accord with it. This is the choice he has made, of his own will, & he will be responsible for the results. This applies both to Tarl, & other fictional characters, as well as to us non-fictional characters. ;-D

The problem arises when attempting to identify the slavegirl's conduct in the same way. She is not determining, of her own free will, for herself, what conduct she thinks is best under general circumstances. She is, in fact, expected to do her very best to conduct herself in the manner delineated by her master. Her will, while perhaps not completely disregarded by him, is clearly & completely secondary to his will, in this & most any other matter.

This means that she does not have the opportunity to choose for herself, according to what she believes is "right", what her conduct will be. She may be, as Orion has shared in his example, relegated some choices but this is done at HIS will, not hers. If he rescinds her choices, responsibilities, & privileges she has one choice to make -- accept his will & conduct herself as he chooses....OR....cease being his slave.

For me, the fact that the slave's conduct is under the control of another prevents her from following the Gorean Morality (or any other agent-focused morality, ftm), but does not force her to be utterly without morals, values or virtues. Indeed, a virtuous slave is what Un & I are holding out for! ;-P ...the question would be...what virtues?? lol

I hope I came closer to answering your question this time. If not, just holler & I'll try to go at it from a different angle & see if I can better clarify my views.

Take good care!

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to BloodLuna)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 10:37:17 AM   
BloodLuna


Posts: 403
Joined: 10/28/2007
Status: offline 		kimveri

thanks for the welcome! I think I understand this concept. Thanks so much for clarifying.

Luna

_____________________________

"Old goths never die, they just need less makeup"



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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 1:02:51 PM   
S2


Posts: 54
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri
For me, the fact that the slave's conduct is under the control of another prevents her from following the Gorean Morality (or any other agent-focused morality, ftm)


I can agree with that. In fact, I seemed to be in agreement with most of what you said in the later posts. I apologize for having misunderstood your position.

However, if I am allow to try and explain myself, what I disagreed with was in your initial post. It seemed to be a very narrow description of Gorean morality, and the wording seemed to suggest that slaves are undesireable in the eyes of Goreans (which was unimaginable to me).

I apologise again for my misunderstanding.

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 2:24:38 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

As I see it, a man whose actions (conduct) meet a civilization's concept of "right conduct" (morality) is operating with that civilization's morality. Whether he believes it 'right' or not, he is conducting himself in accord with it. This is the choice he has made, of his own will, & he will be responsible for the results. This applies both to Tarl, & other fictional characters, as well as to us non-fictional characters. ;-D

The problem arises when attempting to identify the slavegirl's conduct in the same way. She is not determining, of her own free will, for herself, what conduct she thinks is best under general circumstances. She is, in fact, expected to do her very best to conduct herself in the manner delineated by her master. Her will, while perhaps not completely disregarded by him, is clearly & completely secondary to his will, in this & most any other matter.


Hi Kimveri,

I think this is a wonderful and concise explanation.

I wish you well,
Bella

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 12/1/2009 2:26:22 PM >

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/1/2009 10:31:17 PM   
Thatbastard


Posts: 25
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline 		Well, I'm kind of only part time Gorean, so my thoughts will be from a different perspective. Call it comparative protocol.

The thing is, Gor is pretty straightforward. The primality is the appeal, I think. Applying it in everyday life isn't as simple as how it works in the books. I think it's about walking that fine line between adapting it to your needs... or I should say your master adapting it to both of your needs... and keeping true to the traditions. And while I love abstract pondering of the niceties and fine points of it, it seems like one can get detached from the pedestrian aspect of putting it into practice.

That does come from experience. I've screwed up more of Gorean lifestyle and more often than anyone I know.

I'm obviously not a purist, but alot of my best friends have always been Gorean, and my present girl approached me an already exquisitely trained kajira (I love benifiting from the labour of others... if only I was as good at being a master as she was at being a slave). But I take every "You can't be X if you're not Y" with a grain of salt, until your master tells you.

But literally, this isn't I think that complicated, for purist or... what ever you call someone who isn't. Kajira is just the feminine version of the Gorean noun for slave. Not even pleasure slave or anything fancy, like that. If you're not a free person of the cylinder states, which is what most of the usual protocol is based on, then you are one. So, really, anyone who tells you that you're not a kajira is interpretting a wee bit, anyway. So don't sweat it.

Oh, as a rule of thumb, I also listen to Kimveri! She always has awesome thoughts. Hi, Kim!

< Message edited by Thatbastard -- 12/1/2009 11:01:30 PM >

(in reply to S2)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. - 12/2/2009 4:30:56 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thatbastard
Oh, as a rule of thumb, I also listen to Kimveri! She always has awesome thoughts. Hi, Kim!


err....hello there....ummmm...Bastard. ;-D You always select names that give people difficulties, ya know? LOL

Thanks for the compliment, too!

Take care,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Thatbastard)
Profile   Post #: 40
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