A question concerning a gorean slave. (Full Version)

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BloodLuna -> A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 6:08:06 AM)

Tal to all who may remember me and to those new faces who will not.

While I am not Gorean, I am a former poster of the slave girl forums and an avid student of the Gor books and philosophy and I respect Goreans greatly and have learned much from many of those here. I have been lurking here for a while and it has been almost 2 years since I've posted but I feel the need to post this question to further my "education". Please forgive if I am intruding.

A recent post has drawn up a question for me.

It was stated in a post that if a girl does not belong to a Gorean man, she is not a Gorean slave.

I am confused by this. If Tarl Bristol is an Earth man and first came to Gor as an Earth man as he did in Tarnsman of Gor and owned a Gorean slave girl, would she not by definition of her education as a Gorean slave still serve him as a kajira, despite his status as a barbarian man? Can a person not be in her heart and in her service a Gorean slave and serve in such a manner even if her owner does not identify as a Gorean? (please read this question as a new question barring any other posts)

please forgive this girl's ignorance. But the only way I know to learn is to ask.

Luna

edited for really dumb spelling errors



ElizabethAnne -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 6:15:44 AM)

Hello Luna,

Here is a simple answer to your question.  One I posted elsewhere.

The man determines the slavery, not the woman. Bottom line, a slave cannot be a slave without being held in mastery by a man, and cannot be a Gorean slave unless the man holding her in slavery is...yep, you got it...Gorean.

I wish you well,

Elizabeth



S2 -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 9:09:15 AM)

I would think, that the term "Gorean slave" can be interpreted in a number of ways, and depending how one preceive the term, the statement you refered to could be true or false.

1. "Gorean slave" might mean "a slave who is Gorean trained" to some. In this case, the statement would be false, a slave's training doesn't just go away when changing owners.
2. It might mean "one who identify as a Gorean in their believes and philosophy and is a slave". In this case, it would also be false, unless the owner take the effort to re-educate the slave into a non-Gorean...
3. It might mean "a slave who belongs to a Gorean household". In that case, then by definition the statement is true.
4. It might also mean "a slave who follows Gorean protocols". In that case, assuming the owner have their own set of protocols which he wishes his girl to follow, the statement would be true.
5. Some might even argue, though perhaps rare, that "Gorean slave" means "a slave who lives in Gor". In that case, perhaps the statement is irrelevant...

A side note: The owner may of course declare to the slave "you are a Gorean slave" or "you are not a Gorean slave", then, the "Gorean-ness" of the slave would change in regard to her label. However, that simple declaration would not change the slave's innate qualities.

In regard to "Can a person not be in her heart and in her service a Gorean slave and serve in such a manner even if her owner does not identify as a Gorean?", I believe the answer to be yes.



Kimveri -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 11:16:40 AM)

In my opinion, it is necessary to live according to the Gorean morality to be a Gorean ANYthing. A pretty good summation of the more common values & characteristics of the Gorean morality can be found on pages 8 & 9 of Marauders. To whit, they are, in part, "conquest" (not being conquered), "defiance" (not compliance), "hardness" (not softness), & "strength" -as in "strength of will"- (not a submitted will). Since the traits/values of the Gorean morality are opposed to the traits/values of slavery (see bolded items) then I find it hard to view ANY enslaved person as a Gorean....be that a Gorean convict, a Gorean victim, or a Gorean slave.

YMMV, of course...

~Kimveri



S2 -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 11:37:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

In my opinion, it is necessary to live according to the Gorean morality to be a Gorean ANYthing. A pretty good summation of the more common values & characteristics of the Gorean morality can be found on pages 8 & 9 of Marauders. To whit, they are, in part, "conquest" (not being conquered), "defiance" (not compliance), "hardness" (not softness), & "strength" -as in "strength of will"- (not a submitted will). Since the traits/values of the Gorean morality are opposed to the traits/values of slavery (see bolded items) then I find it hard to view ANY enslaved person as a Gorean....be that a Gorean convict, a Gorean victim, or a Gorean slave.

YMMV, of course...

~Kimveri


In regard to the items being listed as Gorean morality, I feel I should point out that those are values meant to be apply to men.

And since men and women are said to be complementary opposites, the boldfaced words in your list are the values valid and appropriate for women/slaves.



Camerius -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 11:45:11 AM)


No, those values are between a free person and a slave, not between men and women.

On the topic I think that a slave can and is able to accept the Gorean philosophy as her own, as there is nothing that excludes him or her from doing so. But that again is my personal take on this. /shrug


I wish you well,

  Camerius



S2 -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 11:59:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Camerius

No, those values are between a free person and a slave, not between men and women.



Thank you for correcting me.

And to better phrase my original point, I meant to point out that both the non-boldfaced values and the boldfaced values are valid Gorean values, even though they apply to different contexts.



Malkinius -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 12:27:04 PM)

Greetings S2.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: S2

I would think, that the term "Gorean slave" can be interpreted in a number of ways, and depending how one preceive the term, the statement you refered to could be true or false.


It could be, but we don't.


quote:

1. "Gorean slave" might mean "a slave who is Gorean trained" to some. In this case, the statement would be false, a slave's training doesn't just go away when changing owners.
2. It might mean "one who identify as a Gorean in their believes and philosophy and is a slave". In this case, it would also be false, unless the owner take the effort to re-educate the slave into a non-Gorean...
3. It might mean "a slave who belongs to a Gorean household". In that case, then by definition the statement is true.
4. It might also mean "a slave who follows Gorean protocols". In that case, assuming the owner have their own set of protocols which he wishes his girl to follow, the statement would be true.
5. Some might even argue, though perhaps rare, that "Gorean slave" means "a slave who lives in Gor". In that case, perhaps the statement is irrelevant...


It might, but except for calling a slave on another planet a Gorean slave, which has no meaning applied to people here on Earth, it doesn't. The proper form is a Gorean's slave. Note the possessive.


quote:

A side note: The owner may of course declare to the slave "you are a Gorean slave" or "you are not a Gorean slave", then, the "Gorean-ness" of the slave would change in regard to her label. However, that simple declaration would not change the slave's innate qualities.

In regard to "Can a person not be in her heart and in her service a Gorean slave and serve in such a manner even if her owner does not identify as a Gorean?", I believe the answer to be yes.



They can think they are anything they want to be in their "heart". That doesn't make it so.

Be well....

Malkinius



S2 -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 12:44:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Greetings S2.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: S2

I would think, that the term "Gorean slave" can be interpreted in a number of ways, and depending how one preceive the term, the statement you refered to could be true or false.


It could be, but we don't.



Thank you for the corrections.

May I ask how you would define the term "Gorean slave"?



Kimveri -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 3:24:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
In regard to the items being listed as Gorean morality, I feel I should point out that those are values meant to be apply to men.

And since men and women are said to be complementary opposites, the boldfaced words in your list are the values valid and appropriate for women/slaves.


That is incorrect, as a complete reading of pages 8 & 9 of Marauders would make clear. As it is obvious such a reading will not likely be independently undertaken, I will share the pertinent passage here:

quote:

" I know of no prouder, more self-reliant, more magnificent creature than the free Gorean, male or female"...


...since this statement occurs in the midst of a comparison between earth morality (akin to the bolded values listed in my prior post) & the Gorean morality (those values I'd listed in quotation marks), I think it apt to once more encourage a fuller independent reading.

I do not expect such a reading, however. That would be much too close to "work" for most, I'm sure.

~Kimveri



Trevelyan -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 4:00:20 PM)

I always look to the books.

Most of the characters in the books are Goreans - born and raised on Gor.

Two of the main characters (Tarl and Jason) are men born on Earth, who were taken to Gor and eventually become Gorean men.

Several of the characters are Earth-born women who are taken to Gor and eventually become Gorean slave girls.

Those are the words that John Norman uses. These characters become Gorean men and Gorean slave girls. If John Norman says there are Gorean slave girls, then there are Gorean slave girls.

How do the two male characters become Gorean men? In my opinion they do so primarily by adopting the values of Gorean free men. I have written about my thoughts on the values of a Gorean free man in other threads, most recently in the "core values" thread. Adoption of these values then influences their actions.

I feel that the same set of values apply to a Gorean free woman. One difference, of course, is that men and women are on opposite sides of the order of nature that says human males naturally dominate human females. I think that in most companionships, the man will still be the dominant partner, although the woman will be free, and may not be submissive to anyone other than her companion.

The order of nature is not the only value that effects how free men and woman interact. For example, while the order of nature suggests female submission, a free female would not behave submissively to a free male of a lower caste. Also, Gorean men tend to respect free women with whom they share a Home Stone, regardless of caste.

How do Earth females become Gorean slave girls? Well, certainly they owned by Goreans - but that is not sufficient. There are many Earth girl slaves who are owned by Goreans, who later develop into Gorean slave girls (again, the words Norman uses to describe them.) They become Gorean slave girls when they internalize the values (and some physical characteristics) of a Gorean slave girl.

What are these values and physical characteristics? Things like:
- Embracing at least that part of the Gorean morality regarding inequality.
- Fully taking their place in the order of nature
- Absolute obedience
- Exquisite pleasingness
- Extreme sexual responsiveness
- Burning sexual need
- Profound desire to serve men

There is at least one Gorean slave girl in the books who embodied these values and characteristics before she was actually enslaved: Lola.

I think that women fall into a bell curve. Most are as Norman described them, containing both a free woman who longs for her companion and a slave who longs for her Master. If these women are mastered, they are fulfilled slaves. A few on one end are like Lola, possessing slave values and characteristics, even though not actually enslaved, and so, as she did, they seek a collar. And I suppose there are also some free women who would never forsake their freedom. Verna was the woman in the books closest to this, but even she was enslaved (and later freed.)




BloodLuna -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 4:19:01 PM)

Thanks to all who have given me feed back so far. It is greatly appreciated.

Lily



Kirata -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 4:22:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

There is at least one Gorean slave girl in the books who embodied these values and characteristics before she was actually enslaved: Lola.

Ah yessss... Lola!

K.



starshineowned -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 4:30:55 PM)

Lol..

You rock Master Kirata!

starshine



S2 -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 4:37:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

That is incorrect, as a complete reading of pages 8 & 9 of Marauders would make clear. As it is obvious such a reading will not likely be independently undertaken, I will share the pertinent passage here:

quote:

" I know of no prouder, more self-reliant, more magnificent creature than the free Gorean, male or female"...


~Kimveri


I admit I failed to recall that specific line from that book. Please accept the following re-wording of my statement:

"In regard to the items being listed as Gorean morality, I feel I should point out that those are values meant to be apply to the free.

The boldfaced words in your list are the values valid and appropriate for female slaves, who are said to be the complementary opposites of the Gorean free man."

I would thus maintain that there is a place within Gorean values and morality for enslaved persons.



Dinnardin -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 4:38:35 PM)

disturbing thought here....what if the lola from the books was the same one as the Kinks sang about?

food for thought

John, AKA Dinnardin



Musicmystery -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 5:54:07 PM)

*psst....John...that's why only a fool buys a clothed slave.....*

[;)]



Kimveri -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 6:10:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
I would thus maintain that there is a place within Gorean values and morality for enslaved persons.


Ok, let's cut to the chase then: which of the following values of the Gorean Morality (as delineated by J.N. not me) do you feel slaves exemplify?

"conquest"

"defiance"

"hardness"

"strength"
(repeatedly illustrated in the novels as "strength of will")

~Kimveri




zephyroftheNorth -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 6:10:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

*psst....John...that's why only a fool buys a clothed slave.....*

[;)]



'Scuse me Master Tim but on behalf of all the clothed slaves......it's too freakin cold here to run around nekkid, it's frostbite season

Zeph



S2 -> RE: A question concerning a gorean slave. (11/30/2009 7:11:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri


quote:

ORIGINAL: S2
I would thus maintain that there is a place within Gorean values and morality for enslaved persons.


Ok, let's cut to the chase then: which of the following values of the Gorean Morality (as delineated by J.N. not me) do you feel slaves exemplify?

"conquest"

"defiance"

"hardness"

"strength"
(repeatedly illustrated in the novels as "strength of will")

~Kimveri




I do not argue that those values only applies to the Free.

However, I would like to add that the opposites which you also named (being conquered, compliance, softness, submitted will), are also valued by Goreans, as fitting for slaves. They are qualities that complements, and emphasizes by contrast, the values that are applied to the free.

I do not think female slaves would be described so fondly in the books if their existance were merely to represent the immoral and perverse.

However, if you believe that Gorean morality is limited to only those four words, to the explicit exclusion of everything else, then indeed there is no place for slaves in your thinking.



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