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perambulations - 12/1/2009 6:13:53 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		Tal and greetings

While I don't post a lot, I do read, and I have observed a few trends that... quite frankly, have me somewhat confuzzled. Perhaps it's just old age, and an inability to grasp new concepts.Be that as it may, I'm going to toss out a question.

What if.... tomorrow morning, all the female slaves opened their eyes and said... "fuck this submission shit, I'm gonna cap my nick and call myself a Free Woman"?  Would there be nearly as many "Goreans" tomorrow night? Would there be *any* Goreans tomorrow night?  I maintain, and I've read a ton of script from others on the subject, that the Gorean philosophy ain't about the slaves. And yet... almost every topic that attempts to address what the Gorean philosophy really is... does so in terms of... "what is the best fucking knot to tie yer slave in, to fuck her in the ass".

If it's all about the slaves... doesn't that put them in charge? 

There is an ongoing thread on this section, that is titled... "slaves thread, support and girlie time" which *I* figure is for the slaves to bitch about whatever it is they bitch about, and get some sort of moral support from other slaves... and yet... as often as not... when I log on... the most recent post to that thread is authored by a male, with a capped nick.   WTF?

Just once, I would like to see a thread about the philosophy, that doesn't reference how the slaves fit into it....where the slaves got zero ink.

Cause, it really ain't about the slaves.

It's about being in charge of our own lives... regardless of how well we manage that responsibility.

I wish you well
Unbuilder






_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.
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RE: perambulations - 12/1/2009 6:36:13 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

What if.... tomorrow morning, all the female slaves opened their eyes and said... "fuck this submission shit, I'm gonna cap my nick and call myself a Free Woman"?  Would there be nearly as many "Goreans" tomorrow night? Would there be *any* Goreans tomorrow night?


Hi Unbuilder,

I think that's an excellent question and I look forward to reading honest answers.

It also makes me wonder if any of the Gorean Free Men on this board have no desire to own a female slave at all. Not simply "not actively looking" but more like "no, thanks but not my thing." Granted the demographic might be skewed on a forum for a personals website, but it would still be interesting to see if there's anyone here who is here solely for the philosophy and has no interest in the slave-owning aspect.

I wish you well,
Bella

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Unbuilder)
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RE: perambulations - 12/1/2009 6:57:37 PM   
Qorvas


Posts: 43
Joined: 11/9/2009
Status: offline 		Unbuilder you make a good point.

Personally, I don't see Gorean philosophy as being about slaves. I see it as embracing natural order. In Gorean culture, slaves are simply a tributary commodity.

I see the mindset as a deep understanding of *exactly* where one fits into nature - on all levels, from the spiritual to the physical.

I know we here on Earth had this once: I see traces of our once 'balanced' nature all over the place.
As an Aboriginal person, too, I see it in my culture quite a bit.

Human beings here on Earth have become lost, confused about where their place is. Goreans know exactly where that place is and I too, strive to know and live in the *place* where I belong.

My two tarsks on the subject.

Qorvas

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: perambulations - 12/1/2009 7:24:52 PM   
ZeIda


Posts: 47
Joined: 12/1/2009
Status: offline 		I don't think you can discuss philosophy without mentioning slaves any more then you could discuss the human race without mentioning women.
The Gorean philosophy considers it natural to have slaves in the population.
Just like the human race has women in the population.
To insist that slaves have nothing to do with the Gorean philosophy is leaving out a part of the Bell curve that Goreans find to be a very normal and natural part of nature.
Slaves might not have anything to do with certain parts of the Gorean philosophy, such as the Gorean morality, or Home Stones, or Cast matters, but that doesn't mean they aren't included into the philosophy as a whole.
I don't see the reason why discussing them should be an issue when discussing Gorean philosophy.
If you want to just discuss things that only pertain to the free, there have been several topics on this board that have done just that and dealt exclusively with things relevant to the free.
Just like you could have a debate about just the reaction of men, if you talk about subjects only relevant to men.
But when you are discussing a whole thing, it makes no sense to assume that only part of the whole will be discussed. And when it comes to the Gorean philosophy, free are only part of a whole. Free and slaves are yin and yang to each other: it is very hard to define what either of them is without mentioning the other side too.

< Message edited by ZeIda -- 12/1/2009 7:30:12 PM >

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RE: perambulations - 12/1/2009 7:44:48 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		Well...I wonder if there are any straight men anywhere who don't want to have a woman. Or three.

Really, I know it is easy to joke about, but when we embrace the natural order of things, when we accept that wild primal nature of ourselves, isn't logical that the biological imperative becomes primary? It isn't about slaves, it is about men's desire for them. If we woke up tomorrow and there were no female slaves, I suspect men would endeavor to create them.

In the Gor novels I read, the characters spent every waking moment in a struggle for power, territory, and most of all, mating opportunities.

I think what I enjoy about Gor is that it is so nakedly about the most primal, earthy desires. It isn't a transcendent cult, looking to achieve enlightenment or harmony with the universe. We aren't ascentics, renouncing our lusty passions.

In answer to Un's post, was there ever written a Gorean novel that had no slaves in it?

(in reply to Elisabella)
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RE: perambulations - 12/1/2009 9:45:45 PM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
Tal Unbuilder,

Good luck with that approach. I think the closest there have been to that was my old beer thread and even that went down the hill from slave involvement. Much the same happened in the "Are there female Gorean masters". It does seem like if it's not about slaves in the start, it will be included at some point one way or another.

Slavery seems to be what's selling around here and I don't see it being changed any time soon. Why? Because if it's not about slavery, it's not interesting to read about and things are just so hard to understand if it's not included or being the center of discussion. What there is to be done about it is to either take part in it or try and steer the conversation away from it (if it's not of any relevance to the ongoing discussion of cause). Other than that, there isn't much else to do about it. Oh, there is one more thing, stop posting to anything at all. /shrug


I wish you well,

  Camerius


_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: perambulations - 12/1/2009 10:07:48 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7219
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Unbuilder,


quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbuilder

Just once, I would like to see a thread about the philosophy, that doesn't reference how the slaves fit into it....where the slaves got zero ink.


I agree but then it would not draw as much attention. Even Norman realized he needed to dress up things. Seriously though, I have said something similar in a recent thread.

quote:


It's about being in charge of our own lives... regardless of how well we manage that responsibility.

I wish you well
Unbuilder



Well if you are taking charge, I am sure we will see something from you soon, that does not include slaves. If you are taking requests a discussion of the difference between Gorean Morality and the philosophy would be a good one. I will try to contribute, but have had some problems articulating things recently.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Unbuilder)
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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 3:16:03 AM   
FrankAr


Posts: 571
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Unbuilder,

Having lost all the slaves on Gor to FW status, now where would that put all the wannabee HNG go then. They have no slaves to boss around and they will loose sight and go into another direction.

I think that one of the major clashes is trying to get the books to become our normal life. The rosy white knight scenario comes to mind so many times when people try to become a kajira and then went to change the FM. I mean the women takes a collar and then later on they go down the line of becoming normal. The women then says, why do not we get married, the male says..ok...then she gets uncollared to get married and have children, and then gets re collared.

Would the slave on Gor have a discussion about this with her owner, nah, it is always his choice. It is her value that determines whether he collars her, or leaves her at FW status. The slaves go from one collar to another on Gor, being sold on the block or being sold to another FM, in the books it writes how they cringe if the steel came off, they depended upon it, they embraced it, wanted it, felt secure.

The slaves capping their nics, well that would be like the bra burning days, or the women libs movement, and in my eyes that has totally fucked up the world...leading to political correctness. But Norman was resourceful, he might just see this and put it into the 30th novel and have the Priest-Kings rip their attenaes out and blow up the world just to piss them off.

Be well.

Frank Ar.


< Message edited by FrankAr -- 12/2/2009 3:18:04 AM >

_____________________________

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Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 7:49:48 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35819
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Un,

I started a thread recently on pure philosophy, no sex, it went over like a lead balloon.

People wanna see tits!!!!!!!!

Hup

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to FrankAr)
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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 9:30:52 AM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 16266
Joined: 11/26/2007
Status: offline

For you, Ron!

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¿me preguntas por que compro arroz y flores? compro arroz para vivir y flores para tener algo por lo que vivir.
~Confucio
the most amazing wonderful glorious food I have - is anything as long as I'm with a friend.
~me

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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 12:05:01 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Just once, I would like to see a thread about the philosophy, that doesn't reference how the slaves fit into it....where the slaves got zero ink.

Cause, it really ain't about the slaves.

It's about being in charge of our own lives... regardless of how well we manage that responsibility.


Tal Unbuilder,

I can understand the frustration. In particular, I tire of the endless (and to me, pointless) debates (among mainly the girls--but when a few men want to jump in, it's their right) about who and what is and isn't a slave or a free woman. [I can just imagine my dog wondering if she's really a Gorean dog, or if she runs around the neighborhood she's truly free, or is she truly free at home in her collar, or is she still free if she gets picked up by the dogcatcher and then sprung, or if something happens to me and she becomes owned by a non-Gorean...when the only important point is that she's a dog and acts like one, especially as one who recognizes me as the leader of her pack--whether I'm her master or the de facto alpha dog doesn't really matter.] I don't have to read them, though, and I do find it interesting to watch Free women and slaves acting and interacting often exactly as Norman describes, all with seemingly no recognition they are doing so. At his best, Norman can be an astute observer of human nature.

But Ron and Animus are correct. Slavery is a well-established and ancient institution on Gor, and command of women (in the broadest sense, including practical knowledge) is part of man's nature. Even on earth, and even if they consciously deny it, many vanilla women are unquestionably drawn to strong, confident men--simply because they are strong and confident. And men like it when women are attracted to them. Far beyond mere convention [e.g., women belong at the feet of men--Beast of Gor (where men are included, along with wild creatures and Kur, among the beasts)], Norman states bluntly [in Marauders definitely, and a few others I think], "A strong man need a woman." Not wants--needs. It's our nature. And I admit it--I like to take women. Sure, at times I'm tired and busy and it's not a priority, but before long, I'm back taking a girl.

I don't think slavery and philosophy are at odds. In large part, and frequently, Norman reacts to feminist stances and attitudes. Have you ever read feminist philosophy? Even when they have decent points, the logic to construct them makes a mockery of thought. I think he actually goes too far at times in his zeal, but essentially, he's correct--these are positions that deserve mockery. More responsibly, his proposal and presentation of our place in the order of nature, including as genders, is a compelling case, at least among those identifying as Gorean.

Yes, absolutely, Gorean philosophy goes far beyond the slavery to many other aspects of our place in the order of nature, including as societies and as species. But as Ron observed, when we have those threads, they get little or no discussion. In part, that's because a lot of the men have left. But for those interested, here are some recent philosophy threads to pursue:

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2905775/tm.htm
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2874031/tm.htm
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2791253/tm.htm
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2775517/tm.htm
http://www.collarchat.com/m_2663918/tm.htm

There are more.

Live well,

Tim


_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 12:08:10 PM   
Dinnardin


Posts: 368
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline 		So, in essence, slavery is the Gorean thread equivalent of Godwin's principal.....

John, AKA Dinnardin

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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 12:25:01 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35819
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		That would make you the Nazi then?

ReichsFührer Goering

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 12:51:55 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Joined: 5/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

[I can just imagine my dog wondering if she's really a Gorean dog, or if she runs around the neighborhood she's truly free, or is she truly free at home in her collar, or is she still free if she gets picked up by the dogcatcher and then sprung, or if something happens to me and she becomes owned by a non-Gorean...when the only important point is that she's a dog and acts like one, especially as one who recognizes me as the leader of her pack--whether I'm her master or the de facto alpha dog doesn't really matter.]


Hi Tim,

I get your point about overthinking, but I wonder at what point in time it becomes overthinking. It's believed humans got a lot of their social mentality from dogs (who more or less "domesticated" themselves) so the analogy itself works...but then again I don't think the alpha wolf of a pack sits around pondering what it means to be in charge, what responsibilities that gives him, worrying he might make a mistake, etc...all the thoughts a leader in human culture would at some point go through. The alpha does that instinctually too...and while I agree that a 'leader' who overthought these types of things would not be effective at it, I doubt he'd be less effective than a leader who *never* thought about these things.

I wish you well,
Bella

_____________________________

you're just an empty cage, girl
if you kill the bird

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 1:42:52 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

It's believed humans got a lot of their social mentality from dogs (who more or less "domesticated" themselves) so the analogy itself works


That's really a tangent, and I don't know who believes that. But to follow the thought, actually, dogs became domesticated early because they are the only animal (the canines) who can keep up with nomadic man. In a LONG race between a man and almost any other creature, the man will win, as the others have more speed but over shorter distances.

The pack mentality of canines fits well with hanging around humans, especially when they have extra food. Both man and dog are conditioned by their natures to draw connections and establish relationships. It's a pairing that fits their nature well.

Once we sat down, established fixed settlements and found rodents liked our food stores, cats fit in well too.

But I can't agree that our social order is modeled around canines. For one thing, dogs are not warlike in the sense that man (and Kur) exhibit consistently. Packs don't head out to conquer other packs (not even to steal their females).

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: perambulations - 12/2/2009 7:31:08 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Tal Unbuilder,

You're absolutely right - the Gorean philosophy is not about the slaves; it is about how to be free. That was a point that I completely missed when I first became interested in Gor, but its power has capivated me for the last three and a half years.

As I have mentioned before, I first became interested in Gor because I saw a photo someplace of a kajira in the postion of the pleasure slave. I had a healthy male reaction to the photo and wanted to know more.

After wasting some time visiting various websites, I finally got the idea of reading the books.

Reading the books and reading some of the posts here opened my mind to the idea that there are men who are free, and that it is good to be free. Now that my mind has gotten a hold of that idea, I can't get rid of it.

Oddly enough, learning what it is to be free, and integrating that into my life has made the acquistion and management of slaves easy.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: perambulations - 12/3/2009 9:34:07 AM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
In large part, and frequently, Norman reacts to feminist stances and attitudes. Have you ever read feminist philosophy? Even when they have decent points, the logic to construct them makes a mockery of thought. I think he actually goes too far at times in his zeal, but essentially, he's correct--these are positions that deserve mockery.


I think it is worth pointing out that most of the novels were written in the 60's and 70's, at the height of the most crazed, dogmatic feminst theory. If Norman seems to be a bit extreme in his gender viewpoint, it may be a natural reaction to the "a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle" sort of silliness.
I was reading a Life Magazine from 1970, and one of the commentators was a feminist who, when asked for her predictions for the coming decade, earnestly declared "we must immediately begin preparing a society without men". When you are in such a world where people say such things and are taken seriously, the adventures of Tarl Cabot seem positively reasonable.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: perambulations - 12/5/2009 9:32:36 PM   
Dangruscurvz


Posts: 26
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		493 pages to that slaves/girlie/support thread... Geesh, can they possibly need *that* much support?


Wish you well,

~Dangrus

< Message edited by Dangruscurvz -- 12/5/2009 9:33:52 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: perambulations - 12/5/2009 10:37:46 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hiya Dangrus,

  Call me stupid here if I am making an incorrect observation But........
When attention is called to a particular matter...such as...the topic of slaves and slavery being the focus of Gor here...does that not only create yet another thread *starring* our lovely creatures of service?...LOL...*shrugs*

Much care,
Maaaah


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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RE: perambulations - 12/6/2009 4:54:43 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		Hot damn

Hiya Dangrus,

Long time no see...  and... that pic is still in the mail....
Un


_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

(in reply to Dangruscurvz)
Profile   Post #: 20
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