Gorean Sagas vs. Second Wave Feminist Thought (Full Version)

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Elisabella -> Gorean Sagas vs. Second Wave Feminist Thought (12/3/2009 2:48:33 PM)

((This was originally a reply to AnimusRex's post on the 'perambulations' thread but I felt it should be its own thread after finishing it.))

I just started reading a pop-feminist book written in (I believe) the late 80's/early 90's...called "The Beauty Myth" and if you follow the first chapter to its logical conclusion, she's saying that the beauty industry is an instrument of the patriarchy trying to keep women down so they make less money and spend the money they do make on beauty supplies.

I'm sorry but can you imagine ANY industry that would think it's better for their consumers to make LESS money so they have LESS money to spend on their products?

It's like they break it up into little torrents of thought that all seem to work but when you put it together your movie just won't play right.

Your 'society without men' comment got me thinking Animus about the FC contract in the books. At that time, women were complaining that marriage was a form of slavery, so I wonder if he used the FC yearlong commitment to make babies to represent what the feminists thought (independent women and men, only coming together to produce an heir) contrasted with the lifelong "slave" (marriage) relationship, where you were free to let your guard down and fully love that person with all your heart.

As a symbolic reading, the whole "I love being a slave girl, I'm a natural slave girl" bits seem less like fetishizing collars and brands, and more like a woman saying "It's natural for me to want to be with you forever, to love you openly, to admire you as a man and to want to be viewed as a beautiful woman...it's natural for me to want to have sex with you (vs. "all sex is rape") and it's natural for me to choose the harmony of my family (submitting to your will) rather than trying to make my will override yours - just as it's natural for you to want to be the leader."

I wonder if that gets lost with all the trappings of slavery - if it's supposed to be a literary device to show two archetypes (the cold and independent feminist who views a relationship as a practicality for having a child and thinks she's above all the stupid girls who enslave themselves through marriage and makeup and whatever vs. the loving and devoted wife who puts her relationship with a man above the material gains she could make in the world) but then again that just makes me wonder why slaves could be so easily discarded or killed, or why they couldn't have children...so maybe I'm wrong.

Though if its the case that slaves are supposed to represent male-female relations rather than servitude, the passages that say "never tell a slave a secret, she'll be compelled to tell it" get ugly. [8D]




AnimusRex -> RE: Gorean Sagas vs. Second Wave Feminist Thought (12/3/2009 6:29:32 PM)

Elizabella-
The number of trees and pixels consumed in the discussion of feminist theory is only exceeded by the amount devoted to that of defining what the phrase "True slavery" means.

I guess the duality of FW and slaves could be read as the Madonna/ whore complex; or it could be a sly commentary on frigid feminists vs well adjusted women who embrace their true nature.

The cultural landscape in the late 60's and early 70's was a time of raging polarities- thoughtful reflection, moderate temperments and reasoned complromise were pretty rare- it was a time of fiery manifestos, and angry diatribes. This is one reason why I take the Gorean novels with a bit of distance- as allegory and metaphor they are useful as a blueprint for how to conduct our household, not so much.

The overarching logic that I read from the books is that the polite civilization is a false veneer, that we would be better off if we embraced our wild inner savage nature. Just as women become more true to their nature by seeing loving and accepting male leadership, men become more authentic by being dominant and in touch with our physical nature.

What is often overlooked in the debate over feminism vs Gorean Patriarchy, is how feminism splits the genders from each other. In purely feminist theory, men and women are independent of each other, anc the connection between them is arbitrary. Women don't need men, and men don't need women. Feminism reduces sexuality to simply an enjoyable pastime, trivial, and rarified.

Patriarchy, for all of its impolite overtones of power, depends on women. Men may be in positions of authority over women, but we absolutely need them around. We are, in fact, incomplete without them. Our union with women becomes the gateway where we access the wilderness of raw power and conquest. It is where we can touch the supernatural power of procreation- laying with a woman, and seeing your seed grow inher belly, is something that goes right to the primal core of our being.

This is why I get impatient sometimes with the endless philosophizing and theorizing. I actually am an active poster on several religious and political blogs, and enjoy that deeply. I enjoy having a life that is vibrant and active on nonsexual matters and yet....sexuality is a critical part of my life. What makes sexuality important is that it taps into the deepest more raw and primal part of our souls- we can't rationalize it, explain it, dissect it. It isn't something silly that we should be ashamed of.

I suspect this is why first wave feminism withered away- it was unable to feed our deepest desire for something authentic, something that went beyond its artificial construct of the genders.

Gor proposes that we embrace this wildness, we celebrate our raw animal appetites. It would be ludicrous to expect women to access their inner carnal slut, and yet to have the men remain detached, cerebral and chaste.




Thatbastard -> RE: Gorean Sagas vs. Second Wave Feminist Thought (12/4/2009 9:59:55 AM)

Have you ever tried to throw a rock through a window?

I'm not suggesting you should mind you. But ponder it or something like it, sometime. Even if it was for a reason which, for some reason you felt was right or necessary or merited. Watch your hand start to shake and your heart begin to flutter. At that moment consider if you are a free member of society. I think you'll find that our societal programming, even for fringe freaks like me, really is a profoundly instilled indoctrination.

Maybe that's a bad example, but it's at least demonstrable. Much moreso than the more subtle way we're taught to view ourselves and others and interact.

I realise this is slightly off of the point, but "Polite civilization" is something of a contradiction in terms to me. And participating in it is enforced with brutally effective psychology, ostracism, restriction of liberty, etc. It's effectiveness is evidenced by the endless emotional turmoil and anxiety that most people derive from being at odds with it.

My point is that we are all slaves. We are not free to go and do and be as we will, our economic prosperity which all freedom comes down to is based largely on compliance, and it's ingrained so deeply that we seldom are aware of it, let alone question it. Even here how much of the discussion board is routinely devoted to codemning those we feel violates not our moral or ethical standards but our societal norms?

So saying that society favors male slaves in some ways more than it does female ones, I do feel misses the point. If a male acts in a way that isn't approved of the retribution for his transgression is largely even more swift and harsh. So, in other words, favored more or less, we're still just slaves, conforming to roles none of us chose to adopt.

To me Gorean philosophy, while patriarchal, is infinitely more liberal at it's core than any 'real world' ethic. Because at it's core, it's one that has to be embraced, slave or free person, by choice. One can argue the internal qualities that compell that choice, but it's still taken freely. And once inside the criteria by which one's treatments are merited are at least largely based on factors they're aware and in control of.




Falaria -> RE: Gorean Sagas vs. Second Wave Feminist Thought (12/6/2009 4:31:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex


Feminism reduces sexuality to simply an enjoyable pastime, trivial, and rarified.



Damn.  And all this time I thought it was men who viewed sex as just that, something to be enjoyed and sex doesn't mean anything to them, except that they get to satisfy their needs when they want. 
 
Ok, I know that is being stereotypical but I just had to say it.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

I enjoy having a life that is vibrant and active on nonsexual matters and yet....sexuality is a critical part of my life. What makes sexuality important is that it taps into the deepest more raw and primal part of our souls- we can't rationalize it, explain it, dissect it. It isn't something silly that we should be ashamed of.



I totally agree with you on that.  I think that regardless of whether you are male or female, we each have our own sexuality that we express differently or need to express differently.  We are sexual beings, with different wants and needs to be fulfilled, to me it is as plain and simple as that. 
 
I wish you well.




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