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Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 7:05:57 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7219
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		My thoughts are not too clear, but thought I would post this here for a different angle on the discussion.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2935907/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

Live well,
Orion

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 7:42:50 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7219
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		So what "rights" do you believe we should have concerning our homes? We talk about personal sovereignty, but in the US, what do you believe that should entail, and what legal rights are in the Constitution that reflect this? How does that align with your understanding of Home Stone and Goean philosophy?

Live well,
Orion

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Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 7:49:27 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 15304
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Orion,

The answers to those questions are already clear, and while you are so fresh out of this is not the best time for a philosophical analysis.

It's unfortunate that the 19-year-old made a series of poor decisions. I'll never understand what goes on in the minds of those who do things like this, things destined to end badly.

I am glad you and yours are safe. Be good to yourself. Just be.

Your friend,

Tim

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 8:02:54 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 6358
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Tal Orion,

I read your post on the other thread. Having the sanctity of one's home violated is no small matter, and I am sorry this happened to you. But honestly, my friend, I think I would have stopped at chambering a round, stayed in the bedroom with my girl, and called 911 with the .40 pointed at the door. The very different way this might have turned out had there been more than one of them offers chilling food for thought. I am thankful that you and your girl are alright, and it does not particularly trouble me that the intruder is not.

I wish you and yours well,

Kirata



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/6/2009 8:29:01 AM >

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 9:18:09 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

How does that align with your understanding of Home Stone and Goean philosophy?


Orion,

I do want to add that while your actions defending your home and family are of course solidly in line with Gorean principles, so is how you are taking responsibility for your actions, even though provoked, and thinking things through.

A man who doesn't have to, fully justified as things stand, taking responsibility for his actions anyway. That's Gorean.

Tim

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Gorean FAQ Threads

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 10:40:54 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Tal Orion,

Tim is right - let's discuss the philosophy of this later.

In the meantime, I want you to know that you did exactly the right thing.

He chose to enter your home as an armed thief in the night.

He did not count on meeting a hard, defiant man.

He gambled.

He lost.

You, on the other hand, are alive, as are those you love.

Celebrate that.

I wish you well my friend,

Trevelyan

< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 12/6/2009 10:57:09 AM >

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 11:19:04 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hey Orion,

I found myself trembling as well, while reading your story.
I am so very glad you and yours are all safe. Safe by your steady hand and even steadier mind.

The fact that you mention feeling sick to your stomach over this only shows just how much a man, you specifically this time does not always want or desire a brutal answer to any dilema.

From your writing I could tell that you would have given anything to have not needed to fire your weapon, but sadly, that is exactly what you * Had* to do in order to most likely preserve yours and your family' life.

It is truly saddening that boy chose the actions he did, but it was indeed his choice and from that choice came the only out come he left you with.

You and yours are in my prayers and yes, so is that young man. I pray he lives to hopefully learn from his actions as he is so young and able to turn his life around, but more so I pray he lives for your sake, I may be wrong as we do not know one another as of yet, on a in person type of way, but the man I have come to know these past yrs here on the boards, thru your written views and opinions, tell me that you also wish the boy's recovery.

I am heartfully glad that while your surroundings right now seem surreal, you have all of your family members intact around you, thanks to your courage and unpanicked responses.

Be well, Be safe,
Maah

quote:


You, on the other hand, are alive, as are those you love.

Celebrate that.


  Truer words can not be spoken


< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 12/6/2009 11:22:25 AM >

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Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 12:06:59 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

He gambled.

He lost.

He forgot to ask himself, "Do I feel lucky?"

Kirata Eastwood

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 12:09:04 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

He gambled.

He lost.

He forgot to ask himself, "Do I feel lucky?"

Kirata Eastwood


Indeed!

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 2:59:46 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2149
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		Good afternoon Master Orion...

There is not a whole lot in this world that makes me speechless.......this took my breath away. I am so very thankfull that you and yours are safe...

You are in my thoughts...

-smiley-

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 4:49:39 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		Tal Kirata,

"But honestly, my friend, I think I would have stopped at chambering a round, stayed in the bedroom with my girl, and called 911 with the .40 pointed at the door."

I dunno what Orion's military history is, but mine includes two mounds of dirt, with white crosses at MCRD San Diego with the names of  "private defense" and "private light tap" decorating the crosses.

Ya do what ya gotta do... and don't second guess.

I wish you well
Unbuilder


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In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/6/2009 11:30:25 PM   
Qorvas


Posts: 43
Joined: 11/9/2009
Status: offline 		Greetings, Orion

I think you behaved as a man; you defended your home and your Lady.

I wish I lived in a place like you do, where a man can defend what is his without concern for mistreatment by the authorities. If what happened to you happened to me, I would surely be in jail for defending my Home Stone. My country is not as free as yours is.

You did well.

Regards

Qorvas

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/7/2009 6:50:04 AM   
breatheasone


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Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Unbuilder

Tal Kirata,

"But honestly, my friend, I think I would have stopped at chambering a round, stayed in the bedroom with my girl, and called 911 with the .40 pointed at the door."

I dunno what Orion's military history is, but mine includes two mounds of dirt, with white crosses at MCRD San Diego with the names of  "private defense" and "private light tap" decorating the crosses.

Ya do what ya gotta do... and don't second guess.

I wish you well
Unbuilder


i have to agree with this. Not everyones instinct is to hunker down, and wait for help. Also not everyones instinct is to go look. i would never presume to say to someone in such a situation what they should, and should not have done. Thats just my take, ymmv.




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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/7/2009 7:56:32 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Greeting Orion..
I am glad my friend that you and yours are safe... you have the right to defend you and yours. Always, with whatever means are at hand.... I dont do guns.. thats not how I was raised... I come from a place where lawful purchase of hand guns is a long and complex process... an honestly Im good with that. Baseball bat to the back of his head and to knee caps.. even up btwn his legs would have incapcitated  him... given neccesity would have been my choice but I am me...

Regret at having to do what you did is in my opinion estimable and worthy of a man such as yourself.. I dont think any sane individual would relish having do violence of that  sort to another...to do so would be I suppose less than honorable... without intergrity... clearly you have both in abundance.

Keeping you and yours in our prayers
B.



< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 12/7/2009 8:01:48 AM >

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/7/2009 7:58:44 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: online
Tal Orion,

The guy got what he deserved. You and yours are safe as well as your home.

You did right, he found out that he did not.


I wish you well,

  Camerius


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"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/7/2009 4:55:13 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 6358
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Tal Unbuilder,

In his original post over in P&R, Orion didn't include the fact that there were other family members in the house. Just him and his girl, with no clue how many bad guys might be out there, is a very different situation. There are "mounds of dirt" with names other than just the ones you mention. I didn't catch the post that followed until quite some time later. But the fact that there were other family members in the house changes everything. Now, the people you need to protect aren't in the same room with you anymore, and you've got to get to the bad guys before the bad guys get to them. I'm sorry I didn't realize that at the time I posted.

IWYW,

Kirata



< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/7/2009 5:51:28 PM >

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/7/2009 6:00:09 PM   
Unbuilder


Posts: 131
Joined: 7/8/2007
From: Alaska
Status: offline 		Tal Kirata,

Perhaps, in my reading I missed a salient point... but, I don't recall whether or not there was anybody in the house besides Orion and his woman.  Presumably, in a 3 br 2 bath... there would be... but... that wasn't included in the original scenario.  The point that I wanted to make was... if ya got some... uninvited guests in yer house... the window of opportunity to take control of the situation is... narrow, and not open for long.  If you don't take action... then the opportunity *will* go away.  " Private Defense".... is buried there.

I wish you well
Unbuilder


_____________________________

In an endless universe, lie infinite opportunities, *anything is possible.
I am the man that I have chosen to become, for better or worse, the credit is mine, as well as the blame.
Objectivity should be a tool with two edges, one for you, one for me.

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/7/2009 6:20:35 PM   
MstrDouglas


Posts: 73
Joined: 11/15/2005
Status: offline 		Orion, you did what you needed to do, do not dwell on it or let it eat away at your resolve.  The only thing I would have done differently than you, I would have made sure that the SOB wouldn't survive to later try to sue me for shooting him for breaking into my home.  I have a carry concealed lisence, our legal briefing for the class was done by a local sherriff.  His comment to the class was, "if you have to use it, dont stop shooting until either, 1. you are out of ammo or 2. the perp is no longer moving.  And since they will continue to move with each impact, dont stop shooting until you are out of ammo".  Of course everyone in the class had military training and at least 10 years of service and combat training.  I hope it never happens to you again, but I'm glad you responded the way you did, more people need to do the same thing, and protect what is theirs and their family.

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/8/2009 7:54:03 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
Hi, Orion -
First, I'd like to thank you for sharing this experience publically. The debates engendered are important, needful, and IMNSHO benefit from having the faces of real people, known quantities, attached to them.

I'm terribly sorry that it happened at all, and extremely happy that no one of your household was injured, beyond the event trauma, which blinkin' damned well too much as it is. Further, I don't see how any Gorean - or Libertarian, for that matter - could see this one as having been handled as anything less than "by the books".

When it comes to the defense of Home Stone (and all that designation entails), the charge is as fundamental, sacred, basic, and primal as it gets. Your home. Your responsibility. Police and neighbors can be wonderful things. Alies are not a bad thing, by any means. But bottom line, the buck stops with the property owner. His to own, hold, manage, and care for. Defense of one's home, property, and family is so fundamentally basic that I am continually disgusted and amazed that some people just don't "get it".

Your sword set his limits. He chose to walk within its circle, and take his chances. IMO, you were more than generous in the time and opportunity allotted him to step back, give up, and cease to be a threat. You stepped up to the plate, took responsibility for what was yours, and for your actions in the situation. I read experiences like yours, and can't help but think, "at least there are still some Men left in the world". 'Nuf said, Gorean or otherwise.

The US Constitution discusses our fundamental rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness. What is often missed by some is that which isn't plainly stated there. Something that just goes without saying: Freedom must be held dearly, fought for, clung to, defended...because there is always someone, somewhere, willing to seperate a Free Person from their Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of happiness, be it by theivery, murder, assault, coersion - the list goes on. But one thing it all comes down to, in the final analysis, is property rights.

The nurturer in me sure wishes like hell, that I was close enough to give my Friend a hug, and an ear, and perhaps a stiff drink. One not offered in celebration so much as in solemnity...we are, after all, discussing the most basic and sacred....and thankfulness that the outcome wasn't far worse.

Regards-
Gracie

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RE: Defending your Home Stone? - 12/8/2009 8:59:55 PM   
Zevar


Posts: 786
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

My thoughts are not too clear, but thought I would post this here for a different angle on the discussion.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2935907/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm

Live well,
Orion



Greetings Orion:

At times a man is met with the need to defend himself and his family amidst unexpected circumstances and more than not especially these days and times to defend against unspeakable violence from those who are seeking a false sense of manhood through initiations into gangs, to name a few so called bogus defenses that are alleged by offenders.

When the moment arises to rightfully defend what is the duty and right of a man then and only then can that man decide the course of action that he knows is his rightful duty. No one can really know what it is like to defend against the intrusion of violence until living in that moment of my life or theirs? I speak from experience. As it goes manhood at times calls for acts of bravery in the midst of dangerous circumstances. Nonetheless a man must do what is his rightful duty regardless.

No one IMO can condemn the actions of a man who does what he knows is his rightful duty to carry out in his home and solely on behalf of the protective security of those who are entrusted to him.

IMO if someone regardless of why is in the home of a man by way of unlawful entrance then it goes without saying that defense is the primal focus. I can only applaud the actions of any man who acts in defense of his loved ones.

The highest of health, strength, wisdom and overall peace to you and yours, Orion.

I applaud your boldness.



_____________________________

Beagán agus a rá go maith.
Gaelic saying

Broken Irish is better than clever English.
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House of Livingston
A Gaelic Irish gentleman master
Finte na hÉireann

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